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#102028 - 11/03/06 06:41 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism **** [Re: Shane]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
Quote:
However that is not what is happening at all. Creation-science evangelists are experiencing significant success which is why the movement is growing


There are many growing "movements" - success as measured by growth simply means that they are managing to persuade a significant size target market - it does NOT measure the number that they are turning off.

I could have even better success by handing out million dollars to everyone who would "convert".

Quote:
That has even been the case when the scientist was considered quite competent as an evolutionist, but when the scientist changed his viewpoint to that of a creationist, suddenly the scientist turned nincompoop in the eyes of those who earlier admired him and considered him highly intelligent and well informed on all the issues.


Who did you have in mind?

Remember that science, unlike religion, is about WHAT THE EVIDENCE FOR XXX IS, not WHO SAID XXX. This is particularly important here because evolutionists are going by what they see in the earth, and creationists are going by what they see in the Bible.

I am still looking for a Creationist who can give a plausible explanation for the White Cliff's of Dover.

I am still looking for a Christian who can give a plausible reason for why the Earth looks like it has had life on it for millions of years.

Everyone ignores these big issues, and refers me to yet another book where the author shows in a few minutes that they simply don't understand the science.

So, what is this hypothetical creationist evangelist going to say?


I don't have an explanation for why the world looks like life has been on it for millions of years, I don't know why Antarctica appears to have been showered with meteorites for millions of years, I don't know why the Continental Drift model is correct, I don't know why the DNA of so many animals is similar, I don't know why it appears that species have evolved, I don't know why there is no strong evidence of a world wide flood, I don't know why the evidence is that human occupation in the Middle East goes back at least 10,000 years, I don't know why it appears that there were many ice ages, I don't know why it appears there have been huge meteor impacts millions of years ago, I don't know why the ice cores look hundreds of thousands of years old, I don't know why carnivores exist, I don't know how so many species survived a recent world wide flood, I don't know why we can track the migration of humans out of Africa by examining their DNA, I don't know why we get the magnetic fields imprinted on the rocks, I don't know why the White Cliffs exist, I don't know why New Zealand didn't have mammals, but I know that the evolutionists don't have a solid case because...


/Bevin

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#102031 - 11/03/06 06:58 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: bevin]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17308
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
The "Creation Evangelism" Solution

Quote:
Think about Christ's parable of the sower and the seed. When the seed fell on rocky and thorny ground, it could not grow. It could flourish only when it fell upon prepared soil. The seed represents the message of the cross. We Christians are to be the sowers, but we must understand that much of our seed is falling on the thorny, rocky ground of evolutionary philosophy. To be successful in reaching the un-Godly, we must get to work, clearing away those rocks and thorns and trees so the ground will be prepared to receive the seed.

A method has been developed to do just that. Creation evangelism first clears the way and then plants the seed. It provides evidence to show that Genesis and the rest of the Bible is not a collection of fairy tales. It shares the foundational information of Genesis and tells the Creation story carefully and accurately. In short, it explains the foundations of Christianity before proceeding to the rest of the gospel.

A small but increasing number of mission organizations are excited about this approach and are putting it to work. The response has been excellent! Those who have applied only part of the technique now want to go all the way.

New Tribes Mission has been using a Creation evangelism approach for some years now and with great success. Formerly, topical preaching methods were used to try to win tribal peoples of New Guinea and similar areas. The missionaries usually preached the Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke, and John. But the results were few and far between. New believers often lost faith and returned to their former pagan ways.

The organization now trains its missionaries to build a strong foundation before proceeding to the rest of the Christian structure and belief system. They call it the "chronological panoramic approach" or simply "chronological teaching." Now, when they come to a new tribe, evangelists start by sharing Genesis and its foundational knowledge. They explain who God is, the original paradise, where sin came from, where death came from, and so on. Only after many weeks or even months do they begin to share the Good News of Christ's birth, death, and resurrection.

The results have been marvelous! And other missions are following their example. Converts are now standing the test of time, simply because they finally understand the basis of the Christian faith. Strong foundations are being laid and built upon.



LA Times: Their Own Version of a Big Bang

Quote:
Over the last two decades, this type of "creation evangelism" has become a booming industry. Several hundred independent speakers promote biblical creation at churches, colleges, private schools, Rotary clubs. They lead tours to the Grand Canyon or the local museum to study the world through a creationist lens.

They churn out stacks of home-schooling material. A geology text devotes a chapter to Noah's flood; an astronomy book quotes Genesis on the origins of the universe; a science unit for second-graders features daily "evolution stumpers" that teach children to argue against the theory that is a cornerstone of modern science.

Answers in Genesis is the biggest of these ministries. Ham co-founded the nonprofit in his native Australia in 1979. The U.S. branch, funded mostly by donations, has an annual budget of $15 million and 160 employees who produce books and DVDs, maintain a comprehensive website, and arrange more than 500 speeches a year for Ham and four other full-time evangelists.

With pulpit-thumping passion, Ham insists the Bible be taken literally: God created the universe and all its creatures in six 24-hour days, roughly 6,000 years ago.
_________________________
I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#102034 - 11/03/06 07:33 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: Shane]
Taylor Online   content


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2253
Loc: CA
I choose to believe the Bible, regardless whether science seems to uphold it or not. I don't have to understand everything in order to believe it, nor do I have to have all my questions answered. God knows infinitely more than I do and his knowledge is so much greater that I don't need proof in order to trust him. However, there are SO many evidences of God's creative power that whether he created the world in 7 literal days (which I happen to believe he could have done it 7 literal seconds should he have chosen to do so) or whether those 7 days are profetic and represent 7 years, or whether there was an earth here as a mass to begin with doesn't bother me. Where my faith is unshakable is that there is nothing God can't do, that he can create anything out of nothing, that the most powerful evidence of God's creative power is his recreative power in the human heart. Our God is an awsome God. Just the way our bodies heal, how all the systems work together tells me in no uncertain terms that we aren't here by accident. We were created by a loving God who thought ahead so far that the best scientist are still discovering new truths and new ways that just our bodies function. Not to mention all of the rest of the creation on this earth. To think the we simply evolved...without a purpose in this life.....would be seriously depressing. None of us are accidents. We were created by God. That not only gives me a reason for living....it makes me care deeply about other people whether they are lovable or not. I know God has plans for their lives...as Jeremiah 29:11 says...plans to give them a hope and a future. THAT is worth telling the world about.

Just my 2 cents.

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#102035 - 11/03/06 07:39 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: bevin]
Taylor Online   content


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2253
Loc: CA
But Bevin there are just as many such questions of the "I don't know why" that evolution doesn't have answers for. Personally for me it takes WAY more faith to believe evolution than to believe that for all those "I don't know whys" that every scientist has.....God is the answere. No matter how much science we ever study, we will NEVER have the answeres for some things. Yes some things will be discovered...for instance we no longer teach that the planets revolve around the earth, or that the earth is flat, but at one time very respected scientists did teach these things. They were proven wrong of course....and I suspect that some things that creationist believe could be proven wrong as well as things that evolutionist believe. We simply don't have all the answeres. That is why, to me, it is so comforting to have a God to trust when there are no answers.

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#102036 - 11/03/06 07:52 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: bevin]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17308
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Quote:
...why the world looks like life has been on it for millions of years ...why Antarctica appears to have been showered with meteorites for millions of yearts ...why the Continental Drift model is correct ...why the DNA of so many animals is similar ...why it appears that species have evolved ...why there is no strong evidence of a world wide flood


Someone is "either woefully ignorant or dishonest." And we're not talking about creation scientists either.
_________________________
I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#102046 - 11/03/06 08:54 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: Shane]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
Quote:
They churn out stacks of home-schooling material. A geology text devotes a chapter to Noah's flood; an astronomy book quotes Genesis on the origins of the universe; a science unit for second-graders features daily "evolution stumpers" that teach children to argue against the theory that is a cornerstone of modern science.


Yes. They LIE TO CHILDREN. Now there is a truely reputable Christian thing to do. How do you think those children feel about Christianity when they get to be 15-25 years old and discover that their ministers and churches have actively lied to them?

Noahs's flood - there is a LOT of geological science, and it all reaches the same conclusion - and it is NOT a world-wide all-life-destroying flood in 2000BC.

Evolution Stumpers - any fool can ask an evolution question that a 2nd-grader can't answer. Unfortunately these "stumpers" always turn out to be a mixture of lies and misunderstandings.

Lying to children - the future of Christianity - heaven help us.

/Bevin

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#102047 - 11/03/06 09:01 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: Taylor]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
Quote:
for instance we no longer teach that the planets revolve around the earth, or that the earth is flat, but at one time very respected scientists did teach these things.


Science, as practised today (hypothesis, experiment, iterate), basically goes as far back as Newton / Galileo / Copernicus ...

Throughout that period it has been well known that the Earth was a sphere - that knowledge goes back to 400BC. Of course a bunch of theologians thought that contradicted the Bible - with its four corners of the earth.

It was well understood that the planets did NOT "revolve around the earth". That knowledge goes back to thousands of years BC. The reason that they are called PLANETS is because they do NOT go around the earth in the same orderly circles that the stars do.

It was theologians, not astronomers, that insisted the earth be the center of motion. The astronomers put a lot of hard work into trying to make that fit with what they saw - the "music of the spheres" is related to the idea that planets were on the surface of little spheres revolving inside big spheres that were revolving around the earth.

Don't blame the scientists for the theologians mistakes.

/Bevin

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#102048 - 11/03/06 09:04 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: John317]
D. Allan Offline
Panning for gold

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3883
Loc: les Etats-Unis d'Amerique
Quote:
I would like to see it discussed thoroughly but not be presented as if Christians can't have faith in Christ and at the same time hold various views on science and evolution. For me personally the most important thing is freedom and persuasion, not the feeling of being pushed or compelled into one view. Where the Spirit of the Lord is there is freedom, and, as Saint Paul said, "Let every man be persuaded in his own mind."


Thank you, John 317, for your response. To push people in either direction is to push them away from the gospel, i feel. Romans 14 is appropriate here.

RO 14:1 Accept him whose faith is weak, without passing judgment on disputable matters. 2 One man's faith allows him to eat everything, but another man, whose faith is weak, eats only vegetables. 3 The man who eats everything must not look down on him who does not, and the man who does not eat everything must not condemn the man who does, for God has accepted him. 4 Who are you to judge someone else's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. And he will stand, for the Lord is able to make him stand.

RO 14:5 One man considers one day more sacred than another; another man considers every day alike. Each one should be fully convinced in his own mind. 6 He who regards one day as special, does so to the Lord. He who eats meat, eats to the Lord, for he gives thanks to God; and he who abstains, does so to the Lord and gives thanks to God. 7 For none of us lives to himself alone and none of us dies to himself alone. 8 If we live, we live to the Lord; and if we die, we die to the Lord. So, whether we live or die, we belong to the Lord.

RO 14:9 For this very reason, Christ died and returned to life so that he might be the Lord of both the dead and the living. 10 You, then, why do you judge your brother? Or why do you look down on your brother? For we will all stand before God's judgment seat.

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#102050 - 11/03/06 09:20 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: John317]
D. Allan Offline
Panning for gold

Registered: 08/28/00
Posts: 3883
Loc: les Etats-Unis d'Amerique
Quote:
If creationism is true (and I believe it is), then it has nothing to fear from being generous and admitting when it is wrong or doesn't yet have answers. If it is not true, then I would be the first to want to know, because I am only after the truth, whatever that is and wherever it leads.


Is this everyone's attitude? If everyone on the forum had this attitude the "tone" would be much improved. :) I am only after the truth, whatever that is and wherever it leads. Wonderful.

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#102051 - 11/03/06 09:21 PM Re: Creation Science Evangelism [Re: D. Allan]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 17308
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
What the Bible says about creation is not a disputable matter. The Bible says what it says. The only disputable part is if the Bible is correct or not.

Many evolutionists are "either woefully ignorant or dishonest" when they start to talk about what creationists believe, teach and their motives for such. Most creationists are honorable. They do not lie to children. They take into consideration the supernatural which science doesn't allow scienctists to do. Both creationists and evolutionists have the same set of evidence, the same set of facts. The difference is that creationists do not approach these facts without considering the supernatural. Evolutionists approach these facts assuming there is no supernatural. Some evolutionists have become creationists because the facts convinced them of intelligent design.

Creation evangelism starts off by establishing why we are here. That is the very basis of worshipping God. God is worthy of our worship because He created us. While many denominations and evangelical groups are now doing this, I would think the Adventist church would find it most attractive as it goes so well with the Three Angels' Message to worship the Creator and honor the Sabbath as a memorial of creation.
_________________________
I reserve the humble right to be wrong.

Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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