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#111812 - 02/10/07 01:03 PM Remarriage....and divorce
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Here's a hot topic that is sure to get your ire up and yet one that has affected many here....

Senerio #1

A couple has kids and they are now in college. As they take stock of thier new lives, they realize that they don't love each other any more. Infact, they have grown appart and have tolerated each other....

Question 1A] By your understanding of SDA values, are they allowed to divorce?

Question 2A] Same senerio, but they decide to divorce. They live appart, as divorced singles for 12 months and they both begain dating other people...Is this Adultery or is this harmless fun and a way to occupy the time?

Question 3A} One or both decide that they have found other partners and they want to remarry. Are they allowed, biblically and what does the SDA culture allow?

I know that this is a hot topic. Many of you have strong opinions. Don't condemn those whose opinion differ from yours.
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#111813 - 02/10/07 01:15 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26565
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Yes, this is a very touchy and personal topic for many and should not be discussed in the same casual manner that we discuss politics or doctrines like the state of the dead or the sanctuary.

Quote:
By your understanding of SDA values, are they allowed to divorce?


To me, it isn't all that simple.

  • Are they both Adventists? If so, are they both still active in the faith?
  • Is one of them alcoholic, addict, abusive, etc.?


Quote:
They live apart, as divorced singles for 12 months and they both begin dating other people...Is this Adultery or is this harmless fun and a way to occupy the time?


If they are only dating, and not having sex, in my opinion, no adultery is taking place. The tougher question is 'if they remarry after a divorce without Biblical grounds, would they be committing adultery?'

Quote:
One or both decide that they have found other partners and they want to remarry. Are they allowed, biblically and what does the SDA culture allow?


I believe God forgives. If a person divorces without Biblical grounds, God can forgive that. Once forgiven, do they have the right to remarry someone else? That is a tough question for me. If their previous spouse is unwilling to take them back, I see no reason why they shouldn't have the right to marry someone else.
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#111816 - 02/10/07 01:57 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15382
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Neil D
Here's a hot topic that is sure to get your ire up and yet one that has affected many here....

Senerio #1

A couple has kids and they are now in college. As they take stock of thier new lives, they realize that they don't love each other any more. Infact, they have grown appart and have tolerated each other....

Question 1A] By your understanding of SDA values, are they allowed to divorce?


NO!
Quote:

Question 2A] Same senerio, but they decide to divorce. They live appart, as divorced singles for 12 months and they both begain dating other people...Is this Adultery


In the eyes of man, maybe not. In the eyes of God? I can't read what goes/has gone on in the mind.
Quote:

or is this harmless fun and a way to occupy the time?


Can one ride a tiger and get off so easily? Can one take fire into his bosom and not be burned?
Quote:

Question 3A} One or both decide that they have found other partners and they want to remarry. Are they allowed, biblically

NO!
Quote:

and what does the SDA culture allow?


In most places, at least in N. America, it looks like anything goes.

Every marriage goes through terribly trying rocky times. These, I believe, are God-appointed opportunities for growth in the Christian graces. Divorce without the divinely sanctioned basis for such will only arrest that growth. Personality problems that prompt the divorce are carried into the new relationship only to haunt those relationships all over again, and with more lives entangled in the web, only multiplies the misery and not happiness.

My two cents.

Gerry

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#111823 - 02/10/07 02:57 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
To me, it isn't all that simple.


Are they both Adventists? If so, are they both still active in the faith?
Is one of them alcoholic, addict, abusive, etc.?


Ok, that's a fair question, but it's gonna make it even harder to decide...

Let's assume that-
This couple is SDA, and that they are still active in thier church and that neither one is abusive, nor addicted to any drugs nor alcoholic.

They have just grown apart and have no interests in what the other is interested in. I suspect that that this senerio is far more common than many realize. And I also suspect that knowing SDA culture, many divorcees move to another area and get remarried and possibly move again as a couple to avoid the stigma of divorce. As one person has said, it is easier to ask for forgiveness than ask for permission....


Quote:
If a person divorces without Biblical grounds, God can forgive that. Once forgiven, do they have the right to remarry someone else? That is a tough question for me. If their previous spouse is unwilling to take them back, I see no reason why they shouldn't have the right to marry someone else


This seems to be an honest response, and I have a question to this...What process do you use to come to this conclusion?
And I agree...It is a very hard question...

In some respects, this is not your black and white issue...

Quote:
Every marriage goes through terribly trying rocky times. These, I believe, are God-appointed opportunities for growth in the Christian graces. Divorce without the divinely sanctioned basis for such will only arrest that growth. Personality problems that prompt the divorce are carried into the new relationship only to haunt those relationships all over again, and with more lives entangled in the web, only multiplies the misery and not happiness.


You sound like one can not grow from the divorce, Gerry. I know too many people who have gotten remarried when a spouse has left them, and they seem pretty happy...for the first time in years! Of course, they did some soul searching before they got married, and went to a counselor and did some very hard work, but they grew....and are solid christian members/leaders within the church.... So, my observation doesn' t match with your experience....

I would like to add Gerry, that I don't think that you are wrong, but rather haven't been as observant as well as you might have...


Edited by Neil D (02/10/07 03:04 PM)
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

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#111826 - 02/10/07 03:04 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Gail Online   canada

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29303
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
I think if it was me (which it isn't) I would explore what has happened to the convenant they took before God.

If one or both has broken the covenant, what is left? I would think that the parties would have this to bring before the Lord and then take it from there.

That is only a humble opinion. I don't have the answers, either.
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#111829 - 02/10/07 03:13 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
I agree Gail

Marriage and Adultery are based on a lot more than sexual intercourse

This couple has been in trouble since well before their kids left - married couples need to have a lot more in common than just their kids

/Bevin

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#111830 - 02/10/07 03:14 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
What do you mean by "happened to the convenant they took before God"? Do you mean marriage vows? Do you mean a personal convenant that was made with God? Please enlarge upon what you are refering to...
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#111834 - 02/10/07 03:28 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Gail Online   canada

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29303
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Well, it is the marriage vows, and I think the understanding of what the marriage is

I read a book once (could be by Gary Smalley, the Love Languages guy) where it defined the difference between a contract and a convenant

A contract stays in existance just as long as both parties want or need. A covenant is considered to be established in effect forever

But convenants can be broken, sadly. God will never break His convenants with us but we are only sinful mortals. Without His help we can suffer from broken agreements

That is why I said that it should be taken to the Lord, perhaps treated as a sin, and peace be made with Him. When this is done and healing from Him comes, then a person can move on. There is nothing we can do when another breaks his/her covenant with us. But I would still take it to the Lord.
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#111835 - 02/10/07 03:31 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Robert Offline


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 23638
Loc: Columbia, SC
Here's real good advice:

1 Cor 7:25 Now concerning the unmarried, I have no command of the Lord, but I give my opinion as one who by the Lord’s mercy is trustworthy. 26 I think that in view of the present distress it is well for a person to remain as he is. 27 Are you bound to a wife? Do not seek to be free. Are you free from a wife? Do not seek marriage. 28 But if you marry, you do not sin, and if a girl marries she does not sin. Yet those who marry will have worldly troubles, and I would spare you that.
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#111836 - 02/10/07 03:36 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Robert]
Gail Online   canada

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29303
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
LOL Good ol' Paul!

I think he may have some wisdom there...
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#111837 - 02/10/07 03:37 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: bevin]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
Marriage and Adultery are based on a lot more than sexual intercourse



Expand on this a bit more, wouldja Bevin? While I THINK I understand what you mean when you say that "marriage... is based upon a lot more than sexual intercourse", I am not so sure if I understand what you mean when you apply it to adultery....Could you expand upon this some and clarify it abit more?
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#111850 - 02/10/07 05:03 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26565
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Where I live we are flooded with "Winter Texans" that come down from up north in the fall and return in the spring. We see them walking in our parks and shopping malls, they fill our churches and restaurants. It is truly a beautiful thing to see these couples, that have been married for over 30 years, taking care and loving each other.

Restoration is a beautiful thing, although in the example Neil gave us the marriage covenant has not been broken. A marriage can actually be more meaningful after restoration than it was before the need for restoration existed. Thanks be to God my wife and I have not had to deal with adultery however I had a friend whose marriage survived it and it actually showed them both a need to strengthen their spiritual lives. That was over ten years ago now and they are still married and have become more involved with their church than before.
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#111862 - 02/10/07 06:00 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15382
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Quote:


In some respects, this is not your black and white issue...

Quote:
Every marriage goes through terribly trying rocky times. These, I believe, are God-appointed opportunities for growth in the Christian graces. Divorce without the divinely sanctioned basis for such will only arrest that growth. Personality problems that prompt the divorce are carried into the new relationship only to haunt those relationships all over again, and with more lives entangled in the web, only multiplies the misery and not happiness.


You sound like one can not grow from the divorce, Gerry. I know too many people who have gotten remarried when a spouse has left them, and they seem pretty happy...for the first time in years! Of course, they did some soul searching before they got married, and went to a counselor and did some very hard work, but they grew....and are solid christian members/leaders within the church.... So, my observation doesn' t match with your experience....


I did not express myself too well. What I was trying to say was that in order to grow from whatever personal problems one might have that contributes to divorce, will be repeated in whatever next relationship one might be involved in. That no real growth can take place until those issues that wrecked the first marriage are dealt with.

BTW, I was not referring to the wronged party in a divorce. The thread is referring to two people who just grow apart and decide to call it quits.


Gerry

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#111873 - 02/10/07 07:22 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
LifeHiscost Online   usa



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10475
Loc: Western United States
Originally Posted By: Gail


But convenants can be broken, sadly. God will never break His convenants with us but we are only sinful mortals. Without His help we can suffer from broken agreements

That is why I said that it should be taken to the Lord, perhaps treated as a sin, and peace be made with Him. When this is done and healing from Him comes, then a person can move on. There is nothing we can do when another breaks his/her covenant with us. But I would still take it to the Lord.


First, I wish to thank you, Gail, in your forthright acknowledgement in your posts on this thread, that you don't have all the answers to what can be, and very often are, heartbreaking circumstances that even the parties that are undergoing them do not fully understand. Despite the fact that marriage is an ordained sacrement by God our Father Himself, it was never meant to be entered into without His overruling empowerments for success.

"What therefore God has joined together, let no man separate." Matthew 19:6 NASB

Not all marraiges are a result of God's joining. Therefore it stands to reason that not all divorces are contrary to His will. A Biblical example, Solomon's 900 laisons.

"Unless the LORD builds the house, they labor in vain who build it..." Psalm 127:2 NASB

How many Christians ask God especially to take charge of the final decision for choosing a mate, not even considering the part of the population that places no trust in God at all.

Take it from one who has suffered the loss of a large portion of the Lord's blessings that could have accrued if He had been taken more seriously at an earlier age, even a person's best intentions are not enough to overcome the darkness that prevails when the Light of life is ignored.
And if those blessings, by God's grace, can be received at a later time as a result of our Father's mercy, no one save Jesus Himself will ever know the number of souls that have been lost to eternity as a result of the baleful influence of the religious person who believed him/herself unable to make a mistake worth admitting, for the sake of another's peace of mind.

Having seen the terrible consequences divorce foists on the innocent young ones, one can only pray that God will fulfill His promises to the repenting soul that at last realizes it takes each adult's willing submission to Divine principles, that cannot be practiced without direct intervention by the God of Light.
"...apart from Me, you can do nothing."
John 15:5

" But thus says the LORD: “ Even the captives of the mighty shall be taken away, And the prey of the terrible be delivered; For I will contend with him who contends with you, And I will save your children." Isaiah 49:25 NKJV
Blessings!! flower



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#111881 - 02/10/07 07:47 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Neil D
Here's a hot topic that is sure to get your ire up and yet one that has affected many here....

Senerio #1

A couple has kids and they are now in college. As they take stock of thier new lives, they realize that they don't love each other any more. Infact, they have grown appart and have tolerated each other....

Question 1A] By your understanding of SDA values, are they allowed to divorce?


No, according to both the Bible and SDA values, they have no grounds for divorce. In fact, God hates divorce under any circumstances. He allows people to divorce because of the hardness of our hearts, but divorce is never God's ideal. This couple needs to go for professional counseling with a Christian marriage counselor and do what they can to work out their marriage relationship. If they are willing to follow God's direction, they will be amazed at the happiness they can experience by staying together.

Quote:
Question 2A] Same senerio, but they decide to divorce. They live appart, as divorced singles for 12 months and they both begain dating other people...Is this Adultery or is this harmless fun and a way to occupy the time?


This is adultery because, no matter how you slice it, it is emotional and, no doubt, physical, unfaithfulness. Hard to see, anyway, how married people can do this without ending up having sexual relations with their "dates." But even if they resisted having sex, it would still be wrong.

Quote:
Question 3A} One or both decide that they have found other partners and they want to remarry. Are they allowed, biblically and what does the SDA culture allow?


No, they have no Biblical grounds for divorce, although they will probably do it anyway, and they probably don't care what the Bible or their pastor say. SDA culture is only important insofar as it teaches what the Bible says. In this case, the SDA church would usually counsel them to get back together, and if they divorced and remarried under the circumstances described, they would almost certainly be disfellowshipped. I had a sister who did this very thing and she simply went to Texas and got rebaptized. They had two children together and he later died from cancer. They both repented of their sin and she is now a very strong SDA. God, fortunately, has to be the deciding judge. I did things much worse than she did, so I don't point my fingers at people for being a worse sinner than I have been.

My first wife divorced me (my fault!) but recently she told members of my family that she wishes she had decided not to divorce. She realizes that even if you have Bible grounds for divorce, it is almost never the best way to go.

Quote:
I know that this is a hot topic. Many of you have strong opinions. Don't condemn those whose opinion differ from yours.


Of course not. Opinions aren't really important, though, because in the final analysis we aren't judged by the world's opinion. What the word of God says is what's truly important because it is God's unchanging law that is the standard in the judgment where we must all give account for our lives.


Edited by John317 (02/10/07 08:05 PM)
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For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#111883 - 02/10/07 08:07 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
Question 1A] By your understanding of SDA values, are they allowed to divorce?


First of all I would agree with what John317 said. This is clearly not a question of SDA values. This is a question of what the Bible says. As Christians that is what we are concerned with.

The Bible allows for divorce if you mean seperating yourself from the situation. The Bible does not say you have to live in the same house as your spouse. But, if by divorce you mean to stop the relationship totally. Then God opposes all divorce. He clearly does not support divorce for any reason.

Some people divorce because they want love. Some want sex. Some want conversation. Happiness? The list goes on and on. But God does not believe in any reason for divorce. He wants HEALING. So if your marriage is not right .... Wait and pray . Do what you can. Get counseling. Try to find a way to heal. Get to know God. In the end ... We are not promised a healthy happy marriage. There may not be love. But love CAN come. If it doesn't then that is the way it is. Marriage is a one shot chance. If it doesn't work then you don't get to try again with someone else just because the first one didn't work. The Bible is specific on the details. I don't have to specify it here.

I just think that so many of us have a sense of entitlement. If one marriage doesn't work then we think we can go and find happiness with someone else. That is not Gods plan. He wants healing and patience about that.
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May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
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#111913 - 02/10/07 09:27 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
^ ^
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AMEN.
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#111956 - 02/11/07 11:48 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Gail Online   canada

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29303
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Having read all the good points listed above, I would like to add that sometimes one sees things differently when actually in the position...

I have seen too many situations where one partner in the marriage is happy in the dysfunctional arrangement, while the other one is suffering profusely. I wonder to myself why the one who wishes things to be well, to be happy for both, to be healthy, is the one to carry the painful burden?
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#111959 - 02/11/07 12:10 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Well, Neil, I am just now looking at this thread. It is very close to home, for me. I was married for 15 years. Then, my wife filed for divorce.

As for your question 1A, my understanding, after researching and discussing this very issue with various Adventist ministers and others, is that no, the Adventist church frowns on divorce. The party who filed for divorce in such a case should be subject to church discipline. That is what I have been told.

As for question 2A, believe me, I have given a lot of thought to that one . . . From the circumstances you have presented, there were no Biblical grounds to divorce in the first place. Thus, in the eyes of God, the marriage is not dissolved. The answer then would be the same as to the question of whether or not a married couple may appropriately date, which is, of course, NO.

Question 3A? According to the Bible, based on the scenario you have presented, there are no grounds to remarry. As for SDA subculture, that depends on which church you are attending. Some are more liberal, some more conservative. According to the official position as I understand it, for either party to remarry would be committing adultery.

Dave

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#111964 - 02/11/07 12:45 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Gail
Having read all the good points listed above, I would like to add that sometimes one sees things differently when actually in the position...

I have seen too many situations where one partner in the marriage is happy in the dysfunctional arrangement, while the other one is suffering profusely. I wonder to myself why the one who wishes things to be well, to be happy for both, to be healthy, is the one to carry the painful burden?


Gail it is important to point out what you have said. We should consider that divorce and remarriage is a sin like all other sins. We are all guilty of sin and if you commit one sin you are guilty of all. So ... we should love the sinner even if it is divorce. I do not believe that disciplinary actions are appropriate. We would ALL have to be disciplined. And that is the work of God not us.

I do believe that if we are talking about what is Biblical or right to do ... then we have to consider that even the person you have described Gail ... has one choice if following Gods plan is best. That choice is to work hard to improve the marriage or to leave and wait for it to improve. God can work on the heart. People do change over time. But one action that is not best and is not God's plan is to officially divorce. Seperation yes. Divorce No.

So many in the situation you have described just want out so they can marry and start all over. God knows best. And His plan is to not divorce or remarry. God's way is always the best. Like I said ... marriage is ideally a one shot deal usually ... unless there is death. We are not entitled to a happy marriage. We are entitled to one shot. We are instructed to make the best of the chance.

These are the Biblical instructions. But like I said ... we need to be loving towards those who have not been able to follow the Biblical instructions. We must love and accept without condemnation those who are not perfect. And divorce and remarriage is just one sin. Punishing the sinner is not our job and will not help the sinner to any degree.
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#111966 - 02/11/07 12:50 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
Having read all the good points listed above, I would like to add that sometimes one sees things differently when actually in the position...


Gail ... I have been in the situation.

But even though we would like to "see things differently"... the Bible is clear and does not allow for us to see things differently.

If we decide that God knows best then we can't believe in Divorce. If we think that OUR way is best then we will decide for Divorce.

I have found that when I decide on MY way it usually catches up to me and I wish I had followed God's way.
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May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#112066 - 02/12/07 10:20 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.


Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 18264
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
But even though we would like to "see things differently"... the Bible is clear and does not allow for us to see things differently.


Don't want to see things differently, Redwood?
Ok, let's move on to -

Scenerio#2

BTW, these scenerios, are not real but are based upon actual common situations that happen....


Bill and Sally have been married for 5 years and Sally is ready to move out. They have 2 kids. Sally has been known to show up at church with bruises on her arm and has come to church one day in glasses. The Pastor, taking Sally aside, noted that she had a bruised eye. Sally claims to have fallen and hit her eye. While the Pastor has insisted that this couple gets marrage counseling, Sally continues to make herself to be the one that is the bumbling person who gets hurt easily, thus excusing Bill. Others close to Sally and Bill have said that Bill has a temper...

Then Sally comes to the church one day asking for sanctuary. Bill has hit her and has threatened to harm her. Bill denys this. Sally is toying with the idea of divorcing Bill. She comes tothe church board and asks you, the elder, what the bible says....

Jesus says that the only reason to divorce/"put away" your spouse is for adultery. And Bill is NOT known for 'playing around' nor for adultery.

In situations like this, do you advise divorce? Why?


Edited by Neil D (02/12/07 10:25 AM)
_________________________
Democracy is a device that ensures we shall be governed no better than we deserve.

George Bernard Shaw

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#112068 - 02/12/07 10:40 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Denise Offline
The Troubadours Love


Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 2254
Loc: Georgia, USA
If any of you have the Testimonies on Sexual Behavior, Adultry, and Divorce by Ellen G. White, it has some real good information. In Section VIII, Unscriptual Marriages, "Respect for Unbiblical Marriages". She speaks, of course, on divorce is wrong, but also, different situations that occured in her time between couples. Divorce is wrong, but, God is a forgiving God on the person who truly repents. Once we truly repent, move on. On one case, on pages 224-225, Sister White's next older sister, Sarah Harmon, was married to a man, Stephen Belden. They had 5 children. She died, and he married a faithful servant in his household he had for many years for the sake of the children. She ended up getting measles in a severe form that went to her brain, and she became insane and had to be taken to the asylum. He struggled taking care of his five children for some time, then for their sake married a very, good, efficent woman. She helped him make a home and bring up his children. At various times, individuals where they lived, undertook to secure his exclusion from the church because he had married without separation from his wife on the charge of adultery. When appealed to in regard to this matter, Sister White said, "Let them alone." And they were not even divorced.
Also there were other cases you can read about. So, divorce is wrong, but God is very forgiving to a repentent sinner, and people should let them alone if they are sincere. We cannot judge anyone or their circumstances. God know everything. But, read this if you have the book, it is very interesting. Denise
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#112076 - 02/12/07 11:28 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Denise]
Gail Online   canada

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Ellen White was known to be merciful, something we as fellow believers forget sometimes
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112077 - 02/12/07 12:10 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Denise Offline
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Registered: 01/11/05
Posts: 2254
Loc: Georgia, USA
A BIG AMEN on that Gail!!

thumbsup
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#112084 - 02/12/07 02:30 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
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Quote:
In situations like this, do you advise divorce? Why?


If you want to follow God's plan or advice ... Divorce is never an option but seperation IS.

I think that ususally we want divorce because we think we are entitled to happiness or sex or whatever. Like I said before ... marriage is usually a one shot deal And if it is not all peaches and cream ... then we have to accept that.

We can seperate ourselves from unhealthy situations but we should always pray and work for healing if possible. But to get a Divorce so we can have sex with someone else ... is just not what God has in mind for us.

Sally can seperate herself from the unhealthy situation and she can even get a restraining order from the courts if necessary to protect herself for a period of time. It does not always have to be either Divorce or stay in the same house.
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#112090 - 02/12/07 04:30 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Shane Offline
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I agree with those that view repeated, phycial abuse as a form of abandonment which is Biblical grounds for divorce.
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#112095 - 02/12/07 05:05 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Originally Posted By: Shane
I agree with those that view repeated, phycial abuse as a form of abandonment which is Biblical grounds for divorce.


You are certainly entitled to have your view Shane ... but the Bible does not support such a view.
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#112098 - 02/12/07 05:54 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
bevin Offline


Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
Quote:
Matt 19:9
|3004| I say
|1161| And
|5213| to you
|3754| that
|3739| who-
|0302| ever
|0630| puts away
|3588| the
|1135| wife
|0846| of him,
|1508| except
|1909| for
|4202| sexual sin,
|2532| and
|1060| will marry
|0243| another,
|3429| commits adultery.
|2532| And
|3588| he who
|0630| her put away
|1060| marries her
|3429| commits adultery.


I note that Jesus says "sexual sin" NOT adultery - even though there is a perfectly good word used in the same text for the later.

So, what is "sexual sin"? It is clearlt MORE than just adultery.

/Bevin

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#112103 - 02/12/07 06:07 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: bevin]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Redwood is correct, the Bible does not recommend divorce for physical abuse.

As to Neil's scenario, I would recommend Biblical counseling for both partners. The husband needs to understand the source of his anger and take it to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. The wife will have some bitterness to resolve as well. There will likely be other issues on both sides and they can be resolved. Failing that, a period of separation may be in order. The goal of separation is reconcilation & repentance. Divorce is never the solution. I never recommend it. Malachi tells us that divorce covers one's garments with violence (Malachi 2:16).

Rejoice always,

olger

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#112104 - 02/12/07 06:51 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Thank you Olger ... you have pulled it together very nicely. If there is a solution ... I think you have summed it up .
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#112117 - 02/12/07 09:17 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Neil D Offline
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Registered: 08/10/00
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Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
I would recommend Biblical counseling for both partners. The husband needs to understand the source of his anger and take it to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. The wife will have some bitterness to resolve as well.


That is, if there is a willingness to resolve it....Many times the man doesn't think that there is something to resolve...Many times the woman thinks it's her fault for all the problems...We both know otherwise...

However, what you are not realizing is that by insisting that divorce is not an option to this SDA couple, you are risking this woman's life...and that is based upon this man's anger....So, if she continues in this marriage, she risks her life...if she divorces, she risks the ire of the church....

To me, this situation is unacceptable....

And I am sure that Jesus was far more wise than I am, and had seen this situation before....and yet, it looks like he has not made provision for it....

Maybe Bevin is more correct than we realize....

What is meant by "sexual sins" ...as opposed to 'adultery'?

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#112120 - 02/12/07 09:37 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Quote:
However, what you are not realizing is that by insisting that divorce is not an option to this SDA couple, you are risking this woman's life


This is simply not true. If a MAN or Women's life is at risk ... and I would say it can be either these days ... the answer is separation not divorce. The church and society both accept separation.

In the end ... a spouse (to be nonsexist) that is in danger .... will not be protected by Divorce. The Divorce may actually be more dangerous for the endangered spouse. A restraining order from the court might help some but in the end if a spouse wants harm then nothing can stop that.

The point is that God instructs us to follow His will. And his way does not have divorce in the plans. There are lots of solutions but divorce is never a solution. Prayer , Patience and Love are a few good starts. But in the end ... resolution is not always possible. And we have to accept that and not jump at the opportunity to have more of our urges fulfilled.

God's way is always best even if we can't see it. AND God's way is NOT divorce.
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#112123 - 02/12/07 09:55 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Shane Offline
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Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26565
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Quote:
You are certainly entitled to have your view Shane ...


It isn't about me. The fundamentalist interpretation is that divorce is only permitted on grounds of adultery. That is formed from a very literal reading of the gospels. As Bevin has pointed out, the Greek word used refers to sexual sin in general which in a broad sense can include lust or some may even include masturbation.

However such a fundamentalist view doesn't take into account the story given in Ezra, where believers were commanded to divorce their unbelieving wives. Nor does it take into account Paul's instruction to wives married to unbelieving husbands. Paul states, "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him." I ask myself "if a man is beating his wife would that show he is 'pleased' with her or not 'pleased' with her?" In my mind, if he is beating his wife, he must not be "pleased" with her and she is free to divorce him.

Now the fundamentalist may point to verse 15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart." and exclaim the unbelieving spouse needs to "depart" or abandon the believer in order for the believer to have the right to divorce. While I have little doubt that is true to the circumstance Paul was addressing in the espitle, the same principle that allows an abandoned woman the right to divorce also allows an abused woman the right to divorce. In both cases, the spouse is not "pleased" with them. So shall the church say that if he abandons her she can divorce but if he stays and beats her she cannot?
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#112125 - 02/12/07 10:16 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Robert Offline


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 23638
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: Redwood
his way does not have divorce in the plans.


True, but both parties must agree. IF not you can't stop a divorce for it is sin to force.
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#112141 - 02/13/07 12:58 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
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Originally Posted By: Shane
The fundamentalist interpretation is that divorce is only permitted on grounds of adultery. That is formed from a very literal reading of the gospels. As Bevin has pointed out, the Greek word used refers to sexual sin in general which in a broad sense can include lust or some may even include masturbation.


Out of curiosity, I checked what Kittel has to say about the Mt. 5 verse. Kittel points out that in the time of Christ, the Jewish Law was strict: if the wife committed adultery, the husband HAD to divorce her. Kittel goes on to say this:

"the drift of the clauses, then, is not that the Christian husband, should his wife be unfaithful, is permitted to divorce her, but that if he is legally forced to do this he should not be open to criticism if by her conduct his wife has made the continuation of the marriage quite impossible." (vol. VI, p. 592)

This is a different shade of meaning than is often attached to the clause. IOW the issue is not so much under what circumstances a spouse is free to divorce, but rather a statement which pertains to the Jewish laws (the ongoing debate between the Shammai school and the Hillel school, in Christ's day.)

Dave

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#112160 - 02/13/07 10:53 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Robert]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
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Originally Posted By: Robert
Originally Posted By: Redwood
his way does not have divorce in the plans.


True, but both parties must agree. IF not you can't stop a divorce for it is sin to force.


You can't stop your spouse from getting a divorce from you but you do not have to participate in obtaining the divorce.

What we always forget is that the option of separation even for years and years is always a Biblical option. With separation there can be very little working together and agreements required.
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#112169 - 02/13/07 01:16 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32116
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Shane
Quote:
You are certainly entitled to have your view Shane ...


It isn't about me. The fundamentalist interpretation is that divorce is only permitted on grounds of adultery. That is formed from a very literal reading of the gospels. As Bevin has pointed out, the Greek word used refers to sexual sin in general which in a broad sense can include lust or some may even include masturbation.

However such a fundamentalist view doesn't take into account the story given in Ezra, where believers were commanded to divorce their unbelieving wives. Nor does it take into account Paul's instruction to wives married to unbelieving husbands. Paul states, "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him." I ask myself "if a man is beating his wife would that show he is 'pleased' with her or not 'pleased' with her?" In my mind, if he is beating his wife, he must not be "pleased" with her and she is free to divorce him.

Now the fundamentalist may point to verse 15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart." and exclaim the unbelieving spouse needs to "depart" or abandon the believer in order for the believer to have the right to divorce. While I have little doubt that is true to the circumstance Paul was addressing in the espitle, the same principle that allows an abandoned woman the right to divorce also allows an abused woman the right to divorce. In both cases, the spouse is not "pleased" with them. So shall the church say that if he abandons her she can divorce but if he stays and beats her she cannot?


Shane ... If there ever was an issue to be a fundamentalist with ... this is it. You can try to expand the legal reasons for a Divorce but God does not want you to use ANY of the legal reasons that He himself gave in the Bible. He does not support a divorce for ANY reason. So ... since God doesn't want you to ... why would you try to be legalistic about it and find a way to do what God doesn't want you to do?
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#112170 - 02/13/07 01:23 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Gail Online   canada

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Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29303
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We all know that God doesn't want divorce, but Jesus explained that He did make a provision for it because of the hardness of man's heart.

I don't know if this is something we want to become hard-hearted about...

Sometimes we must ask ourselves, "What is merciful in this case?" There are some situations in which much suffering is caused when I wonder what is Christian about its continuation and insisting upon the status quo
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112177 - 02/13/07 02:35 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Gail ... you have made some good points here.

I think that a good rule to apply here is to call sin my its name but to love the sinner. We are all sinners. We are all equally guilty.

So let us stand for what Jesus wants in marriage but acknowledge that we will fall short. Going against what God says is best in marriage is simply a sin. It is no greater of a sin than any other sin in my eyes. It may have a greater impact but it is simply a sin that is covered by the blood of Christ.

Having said all that ... I still think that we should always hold up the greatest ideals and will of God. We should strive for what is best but accept that we are sinners that fail.

I do not approve of watering down the truth by applying legalistic views of reasons for divorce. And I would not propose doing that is merciful. But I would propose being merciful to those who fail to live up to the high standards of God in marriage. It is not easy. But I do believe that in most situations that to avoid sin and pain in our lives ... we can follow what God wants by agreeing to have separation until such a date that things can be resolved and God can be central in a relationship.

I hope Gail that you are not encouraging watering down the ideals of God. But I think what I hear you saying is that we need to water down the criticism of those who fall short of the will of God. And I would join you in that goal.

I think that one good example of showing love and acceptance in the difficulty of marriage issues is to never apply discipline to a couple who have struggled with this issue. Kicking someone out of the church whether it is the "gulity party" or not ... is not going to help. It will only put a wedge between the church and those who have struggled with a very difficult issue.
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Christian from the cradle to the grave
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#112180 - 02/13/07 02:54 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Gail Online   canada

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Registered: 12/09/02
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Thanks for clarifying, Redwood.

I am not for watering down God's ideal, because it shows the power of God that glorifies Himself through us.

But yes, I am concerned that some people can easily call down someone without offering the aid needed when things go awry, all in the name of God to the disillusionment and destruction of their brothers and sisters.

You have well said.
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112187 - 02/13/07 03:14 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26565
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
I hate divorce too. I find the story of Hosea inspiring and believe staying together for the sake of the children is a valid reason not to divorce (although there are better reasons). In fact, I think it best for a faithful spouse to try and put up with an unfaithful spouse and take precautions against getting an STD from them.

Howee on the other side of the coin, I am not going to condemn someone that divorces an unbelieving, adulterous or abusive spouse.
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#112189 - 02/13/07 03:19 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
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Quote:
I am not going to condemn someone that divorces an unbelieving, adulterous or abusive spouse.



Shane ... would you support separation instead of divorce?
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#112191 - 02/13/07 03:41 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
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I leave that decision up to the individual without judging them. I support them in what they choose. Now if they ask my advice, I would view each case individually. In most cases I would discourage divorce especially if children are involved.
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#112249 - 02/14/07 10:05 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
God's way is always best even if we can't see it. AND God's way is NOT divorce.

Where did Moses get the following counsel from?
Quote:

Deut 24:1 If a man marries a woman who becomes displeasing to him because he finds something indecent about her, and he writes her a certificate of divorce
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#112252 - 02/14/07 10:56 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Oh ... I'm sorry ... I guess God way IS to Divorce in the new gospel interpretation.
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#112260 - 02/14/07 11:43 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
Oh ... I'm sorry ... I guess God way IS to Divorce in the new gospel interpretation.


That is the conclusion you jumped to. But where did the counsel in 24:1 come from? It seems to me a responsible interpreter mus deal with evidence contrary to their position.
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#112266 - 02/14/07 12:39 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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I don't see it as contrary.
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#112269 - 02/14/07 01:15 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
That's fine. You still haven't said where it came from.

And whether you see it as contrary or not, a responsible person will have to at least reconcile the two-- UNLESS the source of the one I mentioned is other than God. But that gives you a whole other group of problems.
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#112290 - 02/14/07 08:12 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
Parade Orange Offline



Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1986
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
God gave us divorce cause of the hardness of our hearts.

God is a God of Reconcilliation.

hence the Gospel to bring wayward sinners back to GOD.

Hosea and Gomer comes to mind!
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That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.

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#112293 - 02/14/07 08:24 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Parade Orange]
Gail Online   canada

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Hmm

Hosea and Gomer... gives me an idea for a separate thread...

Thanks!
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112333 - 02/15/07 01:05 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Parade Orange]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Parade Orange
God gave us divorce cause of the hardness of our hearts.

God is a God of Reconcilliation.



Sometimes one party to a marriage simply is determined to divorce. No matter what the pleas for reconciliation, or to attempt reconciliation, there is no interest in doing so. In such a case, little if anything can be done.

Dave

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#112334 - 02/15/07 01:10 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: David Koot]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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The church has an answer to this. Once the divorce is done ... the church will sit in judgment of the situation and discipline the "guilty party".

They consider this to be redemptive.

When this happens I view the church just as guilty as the "guilty party". Let him without sin cast the first stone.
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#112423 - 02/15/07 07:11 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Neil D
Quote:
I would recommend Biblical counseling for both partners. The husband needs to understand the source of his anger and take it to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. The wife will have some bitterness to resolve as well.


That is, if there is a willingness to resolve it....Many times the man doesn't think that there is something to resolve...Many times the woman thinks it's her fault for all the problems...We both know otherwise...

However, what you are not realizing is that by insisting that divorce is not an option to this SDA couple, you are risking this woman's life...and that is based upon this man's anger....So, if she continues in this marriage, she risks her life...if she divorces, she risks the ire of the church....

To me, this situation is unacceptable....

And I am sure that Jesus was far more wise than I am, and had seen this situation before....and yet, it looks like he has not made provision for it....

Maybe Bevin is more correct than we realize....

What is meant by "sexual sins" ...as opposed to 'adultery'?



Thank you Neil. You know, for a hypothetical situation (as you said of your illustration) you are drawing several hard-and-fast conclusions. We can discuss that later perhaps.

Please know that I agree regarding willingness. I tell each couple that comes in for counseling that I need two things from them. Honesty & Openness. That fact that they come is usually (not always) an expression of willingness already.

As to your generalization of men & women, I have seen it both ways (where they were unwilling to admit their issues). Many husbands have led the way in confession to the Lord, and some wives have as well.

This bears repeating. I never recommend divorce. Never. a good counselor will not. I recommend separation only if they are about to kill each other (which is kind of rare).


Something else worth repeating... I would recommend Biblical counseling for both partners. The husband needs to understand the source of his anger and take it to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. The wife will have some bitterness to resolve as well.

Reconciliation & forgiveness is the Lord's will in the hypothetical situation that you described. God is in the business of changing lives. He want to change your life and mine.

olger


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#112427 - 02/15/07 07:36 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Gail
We all know that God doesn't want divorce, but Jesus explained that He did make a provision for it because of the hardness of man's heart.

I don't know if this is something we want to become hard-hearted about...

Sometimes we must ask ourselves, "What is merciful in this case?" There are some situations in which much suffering is caused when I wonder what is Christian about its continuation and insisting upon the status quo


Thanks for your post Gail. In the case of a struggling marriage, I am not too excited about the status quo either. The solution is to help the couple identify the issues that are dividing their relationship and lead them to resolve those issues. Then they will be free to love from their heart.

There are three kinds of marriages.

* Escape marriage
* Endure marriage
* Enjoy marriage (this is God's will)

olge
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#112442 - 02/15/07 09:23 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
We all know that God doesn't want divorce, but Jesus explained that He did make a provision for it because of the hardness of man's heart.

I don't know if this is something we want to become hard-hearted about...


Actually, I think this gets it backwards. Divorce happens because our hearts have become hardened.

When one spouse abuses the other physically or verbally, that's evidence of a hardened heart.

When one spouse decides to ditch the marriage and any children because they're unhappy, that's evidence of a hardened heart.

Rarely would divorce be considered unless someone's heart had become hardened.

I think that's what Jesus was talking about. Divorce happens because of hard-heartedness. God allowed divorce not because divorce itself is good or a positive remedy but because forcing two people to remain in an increasingly abusive relationship was worse.

When one party has become sufficiently hardened to demand a divorce, it is neither merciful NOR just to require them to stay together. That ship has sailed.

We can talk all we want about how God hates divorce, but He hates infidelity (of all kinds) and betrayal as well. In this broken world, we rarely have the luxury of isolating and dealing with a single evil in contrast to a range of goods. On the contrary, most of our choices will be among a range of less-than-ideal alternatives, ranging from unfortunate to diabolical.

We have to remember that none of our efforts will bring about the New Earth. Only God can do that. In the meantime, we do the best we can with the world as it is.
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#112449 - 02/15/07 10:05 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
I agree about the hardness of hearts, Ed. The heart is the center of our lives. Whatever is in the heart will manifest itself in three ways (the way we speak, think, act)

We also agree on the virtue of reconciliation in marriage. That alone is the highest ideal. Of all the "solutions" it is the only one that is pleasing to the Lord.

It is noteworthy to notice how the Pharisees claimed that Moses "commanded" divorce. Jesus pointed out that Moses did not "command" it. He "permitted" it because of the hardness of their hearts. The Lord also reached back to the creation ideal in all discussions regarding marriage. "Have ye not read how God created them male & female...?" Jesus based His interpretation of marriage squarely on the creation ideal.

That said, let us help people find freedom in their hearts. Let us assist our brethren in the ministry of reconciliation.

olger
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#112482 - 02/16/07 10:54 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Gail Online   canada

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Registered: 12/09/02
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I agree with you, Ed. I was referring more to OUR attitude toward a couple and the topic of marriage in a general sense when I wrote that
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A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112606 - 02/16/07 11:24 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Anthony! Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 05/10/03
Posts: 261
Loc: BC Canada
Originally Posted By: olger
Redwood is correct, the Bible does not recommend divorce for physical abuse.

As to Neil's scenario, I would recommend Biblical counseling for both partners. The husband needs to understand the source of his anger and take it to the Lord Jesus Christ for healing. The wife will have some bitterness to resolve as well. There will likely be other issues on both sides and they can be resolved. Failing that, a period of separation may be in order. The goal of separation is reconcilation & repentance. Divorce is never the solution. I never recommend it. Malachi tells us that divorce covers one's garments with violence (Malachi 2:16).

Rejoice always,

olger



How about the abuser gets arrested and jailed for assault? This is what needs to happen first and foremost. Only when an abuser is confronted by authority and placed in a position of knowing the powerlessness that he has subjected to others, can the process of acknowledgement of crime and abuse be addressed.

Divorce is not a sin... rather, it is the RESULT of sin! There is no place in scripture where the innocent party in a divorce has consented to sin. The burden, rather, was placed upon them by the hard-hearted. See Adventist Home page 340-341.

Ellen White had much to say about divorce and approved its need in certain circumstances. See Adventist Home page 343.

As far as what Jesus said in Matthew ch. 5, remember the context of what he said was to the religious leaders who divorced for the most trivial reasons. His emphasis on the reason for divorce was to negate the attitudes the leaders held. It is by no means exhaustive and meant to address every little situation.

Also legally, in many jurisdictions a seperation does not protect the financial needs of the abused spouse and dependants. Divorce can do this by court order - child support. However, in some jurisdictions a legal seperation can protect financial interests in the same way.


Edited by Anthony W Lewis (02/17/07 12:00 AM)

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#112608 - 02/16/07 11:43 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
GreatLakesGramma Offline


Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3650
Loc: Michigan, USA
Originally Posted By: Neil D

What is meant by "sexual sins" ...as opposed to 'adultery'?



The SDA church's official policy includes habitual use of pornography. I know this because this was involved in my daughter's divorce from her husband. By church policy she is free to remarry. I asked a conference official who attends our church, and he confirmed this.

Sexual perversion of any kind should also be included. Just because a couple is married does not make any and every kind of sexual act acceptable. Sister White addressed this issue as well.
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#112610 - 02/16/07 11:48 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
Shane Offline
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Quote:
Sister White addressed this issue as well.


Very vaguely. While I do not approve of the use of pornography - at least most types (I guess I don't have a problem with pencil art illustrations for educational purposes) I am not aware that Sister White address that specifically or a number of other issue. She did address some issues in principle but I sometimes wonder how much of that was influenced by the culture of her time - like her view of masturbation was.
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#112615 - 02/17/07 12:06 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
GreatLakesGramma Offline


Registered: 02/21/01
Posts: 3650
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I didn't say that Sister White addressed the issue of pornography. I was referring to the issue of marriage not making any and every kind of sexual expression acceptable. She wasn't vague about that at all.
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Catherine

God is the strength of my heart and my portion forever. Psalm 73:26.

"To be a Christian means to forgive the inexcusable, because God has forgiven the inexcusable in you." -- C. S. Lewis

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#112650 - 02/17/07 10:18 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Quote:
The SDA church's official policy includes habitual use of pornography. I know this because this was involved in my daughter's divorce from her husband. By church policy she is free to remarry. I asked a conference official who attends our church, and he confirmed this.


I would not be so concerned with an official view from some conference official. I would be concerned with the official view of my savior. I do not put my trust in official church policy. I put my trust in the Bible and Jesus.

Church opinion from a conference individual is just that ... opinion. And I do believe we should seek opinion. But in the end we have to do as we are impressed by the Spirit and the study of the Holy Scripture.

In the end ... I would not fault any decision that you come to after searching the Bible and the Holy Spirit and the opinions of "others" including the church brethern. All we can do is to do our best under our individual circumstances.
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#112654 - 02/17/07 11:02 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
Shane Offline
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Registered: 02/02/02
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Quote:
I was referring to the issue of marriage not making any and every kind of sexual expression acceptable. She wasn't vague about that at all.


I haven't read everything that Sister White wrote. However I am not familiar with her addressing issues like:


  • Coitus interruptus
  • Oral sex
  • Anal sex
  • Sex during menstruation
  • Mutual masturbation
  • Having sex in the same room with the children while they are sleeping
  • Kissing and touching each other in public
  • Frequency of sexual relations
  • Various sexual positions
  • The expression of nudity in art


I would be more than interested to see what she said about any one of these issues, some of which are quite common issues in Christian marriages.
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#112655 - 02/17/07 11:12 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Shane Offline
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Pornography can be cancerous to the marriage relationship. Sex is to be an emotional and somewhat spiritual experience between husband and wife - not just physical. Pornography removes the emotional and spiritual aspect from sex. It makes it an entirely physical experience in which one person uses another person for selfish gain of sexual pleasure. One doesn't need to be a lisenced counselor to see the harm that can do to a marriage.

I am not convinced that it is grounds for divorce any more than alcoholism would be. It certainly is a destructive vice like alcoholism is. However if one person has taken the other for better or for worse, they could probably deal with that defect in the spouse without divorce. Of course, one sexual perversion can lead to another so pornography can be a stepping stone to adultery. However that is not to say everyone that uses pornography commits adultery. That simply is not true.
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#112659 - 02/17/07 11:27 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Well said Shane ... I agree with all you have said and appreciate your insight.
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#112666 - 02/17/07 01:14 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: GreatLakesGramma]
Stan Jensen Offline
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Registered: 09/15/06
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A hebrew scholar a few years ago told them that Adultery would include physical abuse.

Its deeper meaning with to withhold something intimate that belongs to someone, and/or giving it to someone else. Physical abuse clearly crosses that line.

I am just paraphrasing it has been a long time.
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#112698 - 02/17/07 03:43 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Stan Jensen]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
A hebrew scholar a few years ago told them that Adultery would include physical abuse.

Its deeper meaning with to withhold something intimate that belongs to someone, and/or giving it to someone else. Physical abuse clearly crosses that line.

I am just paraphrasing it has been a long time.


Hello Stan. Would you be kind enough to tell me who the "them" is in your first paragraph?

Adultery is a moral issue that needs to be repented of.
Abuse (sexual, physical, spiritual) is an emotional issue that needs to be taken to Jesus for healing.

Abuse is not a Biblical mechanism for divorce, period. The solution is to lead a couple to resolve their issues spiritually & emotionally so that they can experience oneness. This often will include repentance.

I have worked with several people on this issue, and it can be resolved by Jesus. Each of us have suffered many wrongs in life and we cannot abide in the shadow of Christ by engaging in any kind of evil-for-evil. We abide in Him when we forgive as He did.

rejoice always,

olger
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#112701 - 02/17/07 03:47 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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For better or worse ... does not exclude abuse.
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#112706 - 02/17/07 04:06 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Shane Offline
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Registered: 02/02/02
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IMO physical abuse us a close cousin of abandonment which is grounds for divorce according to Paul.

However I don't think married couples should be looking for reasons for divorce. Rather they (we) should be looking for reasons to salvage the marriage. Sometimes divorce is the easy way out. That is, instead of dealing with the root causes of conflict in the marriage, divorce is chosen as the easier, softer way. However the root causes are then not dealt with and the two individuals go on to carry them into their next marriage or relationship.

Dr. Dobson once said that it isn't finding the right person but rather becoming the right person.
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#112708 - 02/17/07 04:12 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Nan Offline
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Registered: 04/07/00
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The bottom line in all attempts at marriage reconciliation - whatever the cause of the problem - is that both parties have to want to be reconciled. If one wants out, all the pontificating in the world will not help.

Been there, done that.

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#112709 - 02/17/07 04:17 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Nan]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
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Originally Posted By: Nan
The bottom line in all attempts at marriage reconciliation - whatever the cause of the problem - is that both parties have to want to be reconciled. If one wants out, all the pontificating in the world will not help.

Been there, done that.


That sounds like a good way out of this.
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#112717 - 02/17/07 05:30 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Scout's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9042
olger said:
Quote:
Abuse (sexual, physical, spiritual) is an emotional issue that needs to be taken to Jesus for healing.

Abuse is not a Biblical mechanism for divorce, period.


So when the abused spouse ends up dead, everyone should join hands around the casket and sing the Doxology?

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#112740 - 02/17/07 08:06 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: rudywoofs]
CoAspen Online   walklikeegyptian


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 6927
Loc: Colorado
Pam,
Well put! :tu :tu

Alot of pontification on this subject. Mostly likely by those who have never been there??

Stan,
Yes, you were right. I too have also listened to a retired Hebrew scholor from Andrew talk about the subject of divorce. His study of the issue were in some respects leads to a different, more complete view of the matter than does our traditional stand/stands on divorce. And no, I don't remembe his name. He spoke at a Divorce Seminar we had at our church.
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#112754 - 02/17/07 08:54 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
Nan Offline
Benevolent Physician


Registered: 04/07/00
Posts: 8210
Loc: Sydney,Australia
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Originally Posted By: Nan
The bottom line in all attempts at marriage reconciliation - whatever the cause of the problem - is that both parties have to want to be reconciled. If one wants out, all the pontificating in the world will not help.

Been there, done that.


That sounds like a good way out of this.


No it is not a good way out - I found it extremely traumatic - but sometimes we have to accept the reality of the choices of another.

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#112756 - 02/17/07 10:10 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: Shane
IMO physical abuse us a close cousin of abandonment which is grounds for divorce according to Paul.

However I don't think married couples should be looking for reasons for divorce. Rather they (we) should be looking for reasons to salvage the marriage. Sometimes divorce is the easy way out. That is, instead of dealing with the root causes of conflict in the marriage, divorce is chosen as the easier, softer way. However the root causes are then not dealt with and the two individuals go on to carry them into their next marriage or relationship.

Dr. Dobson once said that it isn't finding the right person but rather becoming the right person.


Excellent point on the latter paragraph, Shaner. Stellar!

The first paragraph troubles me. It represents the slippery slope thinking that Davidson and others on the marriage research committee so feared in `98. In fact, the committee's conclusion was that the Scriptures did NOT authorize any Church Manual change in the area of Marriage. Sam Pipim also spoke convincingly about this aspect. The issue would never have been voted in were it not for a quick loophole vote when most of the delagates had already left (2000 GC).

Ps. Dobson is right. People who settle their minds that divorce is NOT an option in their marriage have a 98% success rate.


olger
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#112759 - 02/17/07 10:34 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Shane Offline
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Registered: 02/02/02
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Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
From my post #112123:

[The] fundamentalist view doesn't take into account the story given in Ezra, where believers were commanded to divorce their unbelieving wives. Nor does it take into account Paul's instruction to wives married to unbelieving husbands. Paul states, "And the woman which hath an husband that believeth not, and if he be pleased to dwell with her, let her not leave him." I ask myself "if a man is beating his wife would that show he is 'pleased' with her or not 'pleased' with her?" In my mind, if he is beating his wife, he must not be "pleased" with her and she is free to divorce him.

Now the fundamentalist may point to verse 15 "But if the unbelieving depart, let him depart." and exclaim the unbelieving spouse needs to "depart" or abandon the believer in order for the believer to have the right to divorce. While I have little doubt that is true to the circumstance Paul was addressing in the espitle, the same principle that allows an abandoned woman the right to divorce also allows an abused woman the right to divorce. In both cases, the spouse is not "pleased" with them. So shall the church say that if he abandons her she can divorce but if he stays and beats her she cannot?

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#112801 - 02/18/07 12:15 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Neil D Offline
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Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
Quote:
In both cases, the spouse is not "pleased" with them. So shall the church say that if he abandons her she can divorce but if he stays and beats her she cannot?


Hmmmm...the difference I see here is that abandonment is more permanent where as physcial abuse is a moment of time...the abuser in many cases "repents" of his abuse, but the anger [managment] issues still exist...

Nevertheless, these problems need to be decided on a case by case issue.... I don't think that within the church, there is a sterotype that can be principled out....or can there?
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#112804 - 02/18/07 12:33 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Neil D]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
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Quote:
the abuser in many cases "repents" of his abuse


Kind of like O.J. Simpson?

There is a difference between an isolated case of abuse and habitual abuse.
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#112854 - 02/18/07 05:41 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Gail Online   canada

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
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Help me understand this better...

Abuse is a marriage issue only because it involves a spouse, isn't it? I would think that abuse is a personal issue. Having a spouse there just gives an abuser someone to take his/her anger on. It could just as easily be a child, if one was nearby.
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112879 - 02/18/07 08:23 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
I've been following this thread for some time, and refrained from any remarks. And it seems to me that the entire debate is ignoring a couple of fairly important points . First of all, we are ignoring the simple fact that when people get married they make vows. As C.S. Lewis wrote about a related topic, "this has nothing to do with the virtue of chastity. There is no point urging the high and difficult quality of chastity want people who are not even willing to keep their promises."

When people get married , they promise in one form or another, to "love, honor, and cherish," each other . When one spouse abuses the other, surely that breaks their vow.

The next point, involves the difference between relationship and legislation . We have divorce laws precisely because relationships to break down . If relationships remain sound, there is no reason to resort to law. As an aside, this also explains much about law and grace. The law came in because our relationship with God suffered severe damage.

If one spouse abuses the other, the relationship has already suffered severe damage . If they availed themselves of the divorce law , that simply testifies to damage that has already taken place .

Last, but not least , is something we virtually ignore today. The traditional wedding service began with words like this , " dearly beloved, we are gathered here in the presence of God and these witnesses." that was not mere window dressing. When a wedding takes place, it involves more than the two parties directly involved. Not only is God involved , and therefore has some say in the matter , but the witnesses are also involved . That community of witnesses are also parties to the marriage. by witnessing will marriage, they accept the responsibility to support the couple , and to help them resolve difficulties.

If one spouse -- or both, for that matter -- abuses the marriage relationship, the community of witnesses , often this is the local church , has a responsibility to protect the relationship, and if that is not possible , to protect the of legitimate interests of all the other parties , including children.

So, rather than all this legal parsing about whether divorce is permissible, it seems to me that as responsible members of the supportive community , it is our duty to a) help repair the relationship insofar as is possible , or b) limit the damage and protect the safety and integrity of all the parties .

And to reiterate , when people break their vows, when they refuse to simply keep their promises, it is folly to expect them to rebuild a failing relationship.
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#112882 - 02/18/07 08:42 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Shane Offline
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Quote:
Abuse is a marriage issue only because it involves a spouse, isn't it? I would think that abuse is a personal issue.


In marriage, personal problems become marital problems. The two become one.
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#112884 - 02/18/07 08:49 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
Woody Online   th_yap2
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Quote:
And to reiterate , when people break their vows, when they refuse to simply keep their promises, it is folly to expect them to rebuild a failing relationship.


Ed ... I liked what you had to say ... but I still have to believe that it is not folly with God. For all things are possible with God.
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#112890 - 02/18/07 09:51 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Woody]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
all things are possible with God.


I'm not sure what that means in this context. God cannot do things which are mutually exclusive. If love could be forced, then God would have done so, and the war in heaven would have been settled long before it could spread.

It follows, therefore, that God cannot force love. Christ actually became one of us in order to help us restore our relationship with God. And even then, many will be lost.

If God cannot force us to love Him, when He is all loving and all perfect, He cannot force us to relate to one another, broken as we are, in healthy ways either.

That's precisely why He allowed divorce in the first place. In recognition that in a world where people have free will, relationships can only be repaired when both parties are willing.

Through law, we can forbid people from divorcing. But unless we--and I mean the church, as well--unless we are prepared to live in and maintain an oppressive police state, cannot prevent people from abusing one another, prevent them from fornication and adultery, or force them to live in harmony.

So, that's the problem here. Law can describe the actions that destroy relationships, and can prescribe remedies and penalties, but it cannot produce positive behavior or coerce healthy relationships.

The resort to law itself already evinces that the relationship is severely damaged, and may be irreparably so.
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#112898 - 02/19/07 12:03 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
CoAspen Online   walklikeegyptian


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 6927
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Ed,
Thanks for your commen sence words on this subject.
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#112942 - 02/19/07 10:59 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: CoAspen]
Gail Online   canada

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I have been surprised at how many people (especially men) are shocked and astonished when their spouses suddenly up and leave the marriage and file for divorce. They later say that they had no clue anything was wrong.

It happened in my experience, too. And I say, with something so intimate, how could they have no clue?

If maybe they realized that taking a firm (and unmoveable) stance for themselves doesn't guarantee the same in the other person, that it takes more than depending on vows themselves to preserve the longevity of a relationship, the partnership just might have a better chance.
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112959 - 02/19/07 12:20 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
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A lot of men that are in a rocky marriage have no clue. That tends to be quite common. Often times when surveys are done, women claiming they are in a bad marriage are married to men claiming they are in a good marriage.

That is a good reason for the church to have an active family ministries that involves marrital retreats and seminars. Husbands and wives often discover things about their marriage at such activities.
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#112960 - 02/19/07 12:25 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Shane]
Gail Online   canada

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Yes, I'd like to see more programs like that
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Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#112964 - 02/19/07 01:30 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista


Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 26565
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Our church does have such a ministry. They are just now adding child care so they can get more participation.
_________________________
Construction Missionary... Find me at www.facebook.com/shane.linder

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#112972 - 02/19/07 03:24 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: Gail]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
with something so intimate, how could they have no clue?


I believe that is a mistaken assumption. True intimacy is very rare, for both men and women.

Indeed, I believe that intimacy is precisely the type of relationship that Christ desires with us, His bride.

I believe that is the meaning of Matthew 7:21-23:

21"Not everyone who says to me, 'Lord, Lord,' will enter the kingdom of heaven, but only he who does the will of my Father who is in heaven. 22Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in your name, and in your name drive out demons and perform many miracles?' 23Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Away from me, you evildoers!'


What does it mean for the God who knows our thoughts before we speak them, who numbers the hairs on our heads, to say He 'never knew us?'

I believe it is precisely a lack of intimacy that text describes.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#113025 - 02/19/07 09:46 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
"And to reiterate , when people break their vows, when they refuse to simply keep their promises, it is folly to expect them to rebuild a failing relationship." One would think that the book of Hosea were absent from the record..

I realize that people can make bad decisions (I have made some), but it is profoundly reasonable to believe that we can make right decisions today, in areas where we have made wrong decisions in the past. God is in the business of changing lives. He wants to change your life and mine. "Call unto Me and I will show you great and mighty things that thou knowest not."


rejoice always,

olger

(Experiments in morality will get people killed).
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#113032 - 02/19/07 10:28 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: olger]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
"And to reiterate , when people break their vows, when they refuse to simply keep their promises, it is folly to expect them to rebuild a failing relationship." One would think that the book of Hosea were absent from the record..


One would think you failed to read the rest of the thread. Taking a couple of sentences out of context can make your argument seem sound, but you're actually just refuting a straw man. Please acquaint yourself with the actual discussion. It helps if we don't have to keep dealing with the same errors.

Surely, if people want to rebuild their relationship, they can probably do so. But no one who knows anything about either marriage or Scripture believes that Hosea is some sort of general model for marriage.

Of course God is in the business of changing lives. But God refuses to coerce the human will. Only the Devil, and other humans who have confused themselves with God, make the attempt.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#113045 - 02/19/07 11:31 PM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
CoAspen Online   walklikeegyptian


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 6927
Loc: Colorado
Quote:
Indeed, I believe that intimacy is precisely the type of relationship that Christ desires with us, His bride.

I believe that is the meaning of Matthew 7:21-23:


I believe your thoughts on this matter could be the subject of a thread unto itself. Could you post more on this subject of intimacy with God and how a relationship is tied to it? I see that as a more productive topic than 'which trumps.....'. I'm serious about this question in light of some of the postings in the other thread. Perhaps if we understood the whole issue of 'intimacy with God', we might trust and understand Him better. The text is one that I have often thought about and what its true meaning could be.

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#113068 - 02/20/07 07:32 AM Re: Remarriage....and divorce [Re: there buster]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15382
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
That's wonderful, Ed. Yes, it is interesting that the Hebrews use "know" to describe the most intimate husband/wife relation that includes sexual intimacy.

Yes, the Lord wants us to be so intimate with Him that He wants us to be conformed to His image, share in His divine nature, and fill us with the fullness of God!

Gerry

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