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#118359 - 03/29/07 04:02 PM Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
The paper I referred to in my rebuttal to Professor Stefanovic in the Laodicea thread is fairly lengthy, and I decided to place it in a separate thread. PLease see what you think about the appeal this Bible study would have to non-SDAs.

HOW WE VIEW REVELATION 4-5,
AND ITS IMPLICATIONS FOR THE SEVEN SEALS


By

Ronald R. Lambert

Revelation chapters four and five present an important event taking place in heaven. Most Christians have tended to regard this event as being connected with the Inauguration of Christ as our "great high priest, that is passed into the heavens" (Hebrews 4:14). Many assume that this occurred on the day of Pentecost on earth, when the Holy Spirit was poured out upon Christ's disciples, soon after His Ascension (Acts 2:1-4).

The reason why this position was taken is because of the way Christians generally have interpreted the prophecy of the seven seals in Revelation. This prophecy unfolds as the seven seals of the "book" in Revelation chapter five are opened. Since the popular view has long been that the prophecy of the seven seals portrays the whole range of Christian history since the Apostolic age, it has been seen as logically necessary that the event of chapters four and five must come near the beginning of the church, so the prophecy foretold in the first seal can begin at that time. The idea that this must involve the Inauguration of Christ soon after His Ascension is merely a guess, since that seems to be the only significant event that would have taken place in heaven back then.

There are serious objections to this interpretation, however. The biggest one is the way the vision of chapters four and five is introduced in Revelation 4:1:

"After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter."

This states that the heavenly event portrayed in chapters four and five must be understood to be future from John's time. Some would take issue with this, and suggest that the expression "After this" is only meant to signal a break between the previous vision and the next vision, with no chronological sequence intended. This, however, ignores the final clause in the verse, which explicitly states: "I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." This can leave no doubt that what follows is future from what has just been presented. What immediately went before, of course, was the prophecy of the seven letters to the seven churches.

We also must admit the inescapable fact that the book of Revelation was written by the Apostle John some 60 years after the Ascension of Christ. Thus it cannot be maintained that the vision of chapters four and five portrays some Inauguration event that took place on Pentecost after Christ's Ascension. There is no way that an event over 60 years in the past can be construed to be "hereafter" from John's vantage point.
What else then could chapters four and five portray? Is there some other significant event that must take place in heaven before Jesus returns? To what does Jesus point us as the very heart and key of His final revelation to His church?

The Judgment Must Take Place Before Christ Can Come

The Bible tells us that God's practice is to judge mankind in an investigative sense by trial and testing, before He acts to execute judgment. The Hebrew word used for this investigative judgment is bachan, which signifies: examine, scrutinize, try, prove, test. It is used 19 times in the Old Testament. The same concept is also presented in the New Testament (for example, see Rev. 2:22, 23; 3:10).

There is such a judgment event before Jesus returns, explicitly predicted in Daniel's prophetic outline of world history given in chapter seven of his book. We read in verses 9-10, 21-22, 26:

"I beheld till the thrones were cast down, and the Ancient of days did sit, whose garment was white as snow, and the hair of his head like the pure wool: his throne was like the fiery flame, and his wheels as burning fire. A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened....I beheld, and the same horn made war with the saints, and prevailed against them; Until the Ancient of days came, and judgment was given to the saints of the most High; and the time came that the saints possessed the kingdom....But the judgment shall sit, and they shall take away his dominion, to consume and to destroy it unto the end."

We note that this judgment takes place prior to the return of Christ. It is what leads to the defeat of the persecuting power that opposes God and His people, ending its dominion and empowering them to "consume and to destroy it unto the end." We also note that books are involved, books which are "opened" and presumably consulted. Thus we have the idea of an investigative judgment.

Apparently it is this pre-Advent, investigative judgment that is the crucial event which must take place before Christ can return. Could this be what Revelation 4-5 portrays?

Textual Evidences of Parallels Between Rev. 4-5 and the Judgment in Dan. 7

There are textual evidences that establish parallels between the heavenly scene in Revelation 4-5 and the Judgment scene in Daniel seven. Here are some examples:

Other thrones are mentioned besides God's throne. Compare Daniel 7:9 with Revelation 4:4.

In both prophecies we encounter this distinctive formulation: "thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him" (Daniel 7:10). Compare Revelation 5:11: "...and the number of them [angels] was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands." Modern translations render this "myriads upon myriads," or "myriads of myriads." But still, these similar formulations are only found in Daniel 7:10 and Revelation 5:11.

The Son of Man (the Lamb) receives dominion and a kingdom: Revelation 5:9-13; compare Daniel 7:13, 14.

The people of God are said to be saved in His kingdom as a result: Revelation 5:9, 10; compare Daniel 7:27.

A book or books are mentioned, which need to be opened and consulted: Revelation 5:1-5, 7-9; compare Daniel 7:10. Some might object that in Revelation five, only one book is mentioned, while in Daniel seven, "books" (plural) are mentioned. But the book mentioned in Revelation five is one particular book that has been sealed, and cannot be opened unless one worthy to open it is found. This does not mean there are not other books. The book that was sealed must be the book that records the faith and works of those who profess to be God's people. Those are the things that need to be consulted so it can be determined who is to be numbered as a part of Christ's kingdom, and what their rewards in the Kingdom should be; and they cannot be consulted unless mankind has a Savior, who in Himself can give their faith and works validity and value. Otherwise, "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6.)

Furthermore, there are clear indications in the text of Revelation five that an investigative judgment is taking place. While the word "judgment" itself does not appear, there are statements that an investigation is being made to find someone who is worthy (v. 2); and then that "no man was FOUND worthy" (vs. 3-4). Then the Lamb is FOUND to be worthy (vs. 5-9). And as a result of the Lamb being found worthy to open the book, the four beasts and 24 elders sing a song of praise to the Lamb for saving mankind (vs. 9, 10). Also as a result of the Lamb being found worthy, He is declared worthy "to receive power, and riches, and wisdom, and strength, and honour, and glory, and blessing" (v. 12). Compare this to Daniel 7:14.

Surely these things describe the very operation of an investigative judgment. Is it not reasonable to conclude that this must be the Investigative Judgment of all the world?

The Doctrine of the Judgment Is In Harmony With the Gospel

When we see the Judgment in Revelation 4-5, we see how the Bible doctrine of the Judgment is in perfect harmony with the Bible doctrine of justification by faith through the imputed righteousness of Christ, for we see that it is Christ, the Lamb, who stands for us in Judgment--not merely with us, as an advocate by our side, but He stands in our place. We also see that our faith and our works matter, and can bring us rewards; but only because they are validated in Him. Jesus did promise that our works would be rewarded: "For the Son of man shall come in the glory of his Father with his angels; and then he shall reward every man according to his works." (Matt. 16:27) Jesus also said concerning His return: "And behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be." (Revelation 22:12) And yet Jesus certainly did not teach salvation by our works!

Accepting what the text clearly tells us, what does this mean for the prophecies that surround Revelation chapters four and five?

Implications for the Letters to the Seven Churches

The letters to the seven churches must have primary application to the entirety of Christendom, all the modern churches in their range of spiritual characteristics, at the time when they are ABOUT to enter the Judgment. Notice this promise to Philadelphia: "I also will keep thee from the hour of temptation, which shall come upon all the world, to try them that dwell upon the earth." (Rev. 3:10.) Other translations say "hour of trial," instead of "hour of temptation." This clearly looks forward to the soon-coming Investigative Judgment, which will be accompanied by the time of final test for those "that dwell upon the earth" as the events of the final conflict transpire. Possible references to a soon-coming Judgment may be seen in each one of the letters to the seven churches. See Revelation 2:5, 10, 16, 23; 3:3, 10-11, 20-21.

The letter to each of the seven churches includes in its conclusion the words: "He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches." (Rev. 2:7, 11, 17, 29; 3:6, 13, 22.) This means that none of the counsels to the churches is to be relegated to some far and distant place and period of past history. If we do, we will miss seeing the present relevance of these counsels to our own church community, as we are about to enter the Judgment.

Hearing "what the spirit saith unto the churches" means more than merely registering the words; it implies that all the churches will profit from the lessons learned in the experiences of all the other churches. For example, in the letter to Thyatira, we read that by the lesson involving "Jezebel" that was to be taught to that church: "...all the churches shall know that I am he which searcheth the reins and heart...." (Rev. 2:23.) This means that something that is to occur in the experience of Thyatira, will be known to the church of Ephesus, as well as all the others. If the Ephesian period of the church was hundreds of years before the Thyatiran period, as has been commonly believed, then how could the Ephesians learn from an experience that was to take place in Thyatira hundreds of years later?

When we understand that the letters to the seven churches apply to Christendom just before the Judgment comes, then what Revelation 4:1 says makes perfect sense: "After this I looked, and, behold....I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." The next thing after preparing for the Judgment is the Judgment!

Implications for the Seven Seals

The implications for our understanding of the seven seals prophecy are profound and startling, for they brace us with present relevance. We must conclude that since Revelation 4-5 depicts the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment, therefore the prophecy of the seven seals must apply after the start of this Judgment, since those seals are opened in a vision of the Judgment.

But when does this Judgment begin? And when we know, does the prophecy of the seven seals fit the history which begins at that point? As we will see, it does. But first, what does the Bible tell us about when the Judgment begins?

Parallel Prophecies in Daniel

We have already seen the explicit depiction of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment in Daniel seven. Let us now note the parallels that exist among the four lines of prophecy in Daniel, which outline world history from Daniel's time to the end of time. All mention the same kingdoms or empires (except when Babylon is omitted, having already fallen by the time of Daniel seven), and all show them in the same sequence. Each line of prophecy addresses one of the four main circumstances suffered by the Jews in the time the prophecies of Daniel were given. Those circumstances were that the Jews had no kingdom, they had no king, the sanctuary was in ruins, and the people were scattered and in captivity. And so the visions of Daniel address the restoration of these things.

The theme of the prophecy of Daniel two is the restoration of the kingdom, with the setting up of God's eternal kingdom, as stated in Daniel 2:44: "And in the days of these kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom, which shall never be destroyed: and the kingdom shall not be left to other people, but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever."

The theme of the prophecy of Daniel seven is the restoration of the king, in the person of the True King, as stated in Daniel 7:13, 14: "I saw in the night visions, and, behold, one like the Son of man came with the clouds of heaven, and came to the Ancient of days, and they brought him near before him. And there was given him dominion, and glory, and a kingdom, that all people, nations, and languages, should serve him: his dominion is an everlasting dominion, which shall not pass away, and his kingdom that which shall not be destroyed."

The theme of the prophecy of Daniel 8-9 is the restoration of the sanctuary, in the form of the heavenly temple of God, as stated in Daniel 8:14: "And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed." Or as the NRSV renders the last part: "...then the sanctuary shall be restored to its rightful state." Also note that the animals chosen as symbols in Daniel eight are animals used as sacrifices in the sanctuary.

The theme of the prophecy of Daniel 10-12 is the restoration of the people, as stated in Daniel 10:14: "Now I am come to make thee understand what shall befall thy people in the latter days: for yet the vision is for many days."

Daniel 8:14

We see that in Daniel seven, the Judgment is the event that signals the "turning of the tide," so to speak, which ultimately results in victory for God's people. This is God's answer to all the persecution and oppression by earthly powers against His people. When we look at the prophecy of Daniel eight, we find that same turning point comes when "the sanctuary shall be cleansed." (Daniel 8:14) This is what comes at the culmination of the long ages of strife and trouble suffered by the saints in that prophecy.

This figure of the "cleansing of the sanctuary" refers to the annual Day of Atonement in ancient Israel, in the sanctuary services which typify the operation of God's Plan of Salvation. (See Leviticus 16:16, 29-33.) In ancient Israel, the Day of Atonement (yom kippur) was also known as a day of judgment for the people, because if anyone refused to participate, he was forever cut off from the nation of Israel. (See Leviticus 23:24.)

The Time Prophecy of the Judgment

Daniel 8:14 is of great importance, because it gives us a time prophecy--one which logically must lead us to the time for the start of the Judgment. A complication that arises is that a starting point for this time prophecy is not given in chapter eight. After the angel Gabriel affirmed to Daniel that the time prophecy is true (Daniel 8:26), Daniel fainted and could not continue.

But then in chapter nine, we find Daniel pouring over the prophecy of Jeremiah that Israel would be returned and the nation restored after 70 years of captivity. Daniel then poured out his heart in an earnest prayer for God's mercy, pleading for God to remember his promise that the captivity would only be for 70 years. Apparently he feared that the time prophecy he had been given indicated that the captivity would be greatly extended because of the sins of the people. Obviously he understood the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14 to be prophetically symbolic, signifying 2300 literal years. If he took them as literal days, or as half days (as some people construe it, counting morning and evening sacrifices instead of seeing the formulation "evening-mornings" as being the Genesis delineation of days), then there would have been no reason for him to be so troubled.

At last, in verse 21, the angel Gabriel appears to Daniel in response to his prayer, and tells Daniel in verse 23 to "consider the vision." The original word used for vision here is mareh. This must be the vision involving the 2300 days time prophecy, which the angel was discussing in Daniel 8:26 when Daniel fainted. In chapter eight, two words for vision were used. The word used for vision in Daniel 8:26 was also mareh: "the vision [mareh] of the evening and the morning is true...." The other word for vision, used in reference to the historical events of verses 1-12, was chazown (see verse 13).

Gabriel then set forth a time prophecy involving "seventy weeks" (or literally "seventy sevens"). Part of this prophecy is said to apply to the Messiah, with a starting point given: "Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times." This works out to be 483 days. It is clear from this that we are expected to understand that each day stands for a literal year.

According to history and the book of Ezra, the starting point occurred in the fall of 457 B.C. Counting forward from that point, and remembering that there was no year zero--1 B.C. was followed by 1 A.D.--we come to 27 A.D. Today we know that the scholars who originally devised the Christian calendar were off by about four years in their estimation of the year of Christ's birth, so that He was actually four years old in 1 A.D., and so was "about thirty years of age" (Luke 3:23) in 27 A.D., when He was baptized in the Jordan River, and anointed as Messiah by the Holy Spirit (see Luke 3:22). The prophecy says that after that time, He would be "cut off, but not for Himself" (Dan. 9:26) and "in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease" (Dan. 9:27). He did this by fulfilling those types. The "midst" of the week would be three and one-half days. Three and one half years after Christ was baptized and anointed as Messiah, He was crucified. Most Bible scholars favor 31 A.D. for the year of Christ's crucifixion, and because it was at the time of the Passover, we know it was in the spring. Ezra arrived in Judah to publish throughout the land King Artaxerxes' command to restore and rebuild Jerusalem, in the fall of 457 B.C. Spring would be half a year after Autumn. Yet again, we see by this that God expects us to interpret the prophetic days as literal years, because this works out beautifully to establish the time when the Messiah was to be anointed and then to make Atonement.

Remember, just before the angel Gabriel gave Daniel these detailed prophecies of the Messiah, he said, "Consider the vision [mareh]"--referring to the vision of the 2300 days of Daniel 8:14. Thus the angel Gabriel tied together the time prophecy in Daniel nine with the time prophecy in Daniel eight. Both are to be interpreted using the formula of a prophetic day for a literal year, and both must share the same starting point!
It is of vast consequence to conclude that the 2300-day prophecy of Daniel 8:14, which as we have seen is a prophecy of the Judgment, began in the fall of 457 B.C. This time period terminated in 1844 A.D.

If all we have considered so far is correct (and we have seen how the Bible prophecies verify themselves), then we have no choice but to conclude that the Judgment began in the sanctuary or temple of God in Heaven, in 1844.

The Seven Seals Apply After 1844

This in turn leads us to conclude that the prophecy of the seven seals in Revelation must apply to recent history, beginning in 1844.

Does this work out? If we look at history since 1844, do we see correspondence to the prophecy of the seven seals? Does it give us insight as to where we are now, and give us a clear idea of how close to the time of the end we are?

Yes on all counts. Let us go through the prophecy of the seven seals, and see.

When the First Seal Was Opened

John saw "...a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer." (Rev. 6:2)

Let us consider the symbols used. In Zechariah 10:3 we read: "...the LORD of hosts hath visited his flock the house of Judah, and hath made them as his goodly horse in the battle." Similar is Zechariah 6:1-8, where four teams of horses pulling chariots come out together from between two brass mountains. They are said to be "the four spirits of the heavens, which go forth from standing before the Lord of all the earth." Though they each have different experiences, they all represent a common church community, which like the angels of God are commissioned to carry God's messages to the world.

White of course represents the purity and holiness of the church as it is constituted in Christ. (See Isaiah 1:18; Daniel 12:10.) One church community that appeared on earth in 1844 was a remnant of the Advent Movement, originally led by William Miller, that was to grow to be a world-wide denomination. They had rightly calculated when the time prophecy of Daniel 8:14 would terminate, but wrongly thought that the "cleansing of the sanctuary" would be the cleansing of the earth by fire at Christ's Second Coming. Many sincerely believed that the historic "Blessed Hope" of the church was about to be realized, and suffered being cast out of their old churches for teaching something that was strangely unpopular in the Christian churches of their day.

Their disappointment left them humble, and teachable. They were the first ones who understood the significance of the fact that the sanctuary is in Heaven, and that Daniel 8:14 is talking about the Judgment. Theirs were the first voices on earth raised to declare the message of the first angel of Revelation 14:7: "Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come...."

For many years, as their numbers began to grow, they welcomed new light from the Bible. They had come from many denominations, and believed about most things the way their old churches did. They entered into a four-year long Bible study, working out the true teachings of Scripture, so they could come into the unity of faith. When something unfamiliar was presented to them from God's Word, they did not use the argument: "But this is what we've always taught, these new ideas can't be right."

When a Seventh-day Baptist presented the claims of the fourth commandment to one of them, Joseph Bates, about the still-continuing obligation to keep the seventh-day Sabbath because it has never been changed, they discussed and studied this in Scripture for themselves, and finally accepted it. They came to affirm the Biblical doctrine of baptism by immersion. They realized what the Bible teaches about the state of the dead, that they are asleep, waiting for the resurrection. These things were very different from what most of them had been raised believing. Eventually this aggregation of former Methodists, Baptists, Presbyterians, Episcopalians, Lutherans, and whatnot formed the nucleus of what came to be known as the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

We tend to see things much differently than God does. We think of what it means for a church to be pure and holy, and we think in terms of perfection in themselves, where everyone is an ultra-conservative, and lacks for nothing in his knowledge of doctrine, and performs abundant good works, attended by miracles in his ministry. But what delights God above all else is to see His imperfect children developing the faith to give His Word the highest authority, so they are humble enough and teachable enough to be led to walk in the path of presently unfolding knowledge of truth, and change what they have always believed, when they see from the Bible that they should. Let no one underestimate how rare this attitude is, despite how much people may claim to be open-minded. As Jesus said, "Nevertheless when the Son of man cometh, shall he find faith on the earth?" (Luke 18:8)

May God grant that those who come after the pioneers will also exhibit the same spirit of humble teachability and open-mindedness, and not settle into the comfortable illusions of traditionalism, and resist present truth from God's Word because it may seem new and unfamiliar.

The rider must be Christ, since only He would be the rider on a church depicted as pure and holy. (See Revelation 19:11.) And during the first decades, the little band of Advent believers truly allowed Jesus to hold their reins in His hands. They were especially benefited by the guidance given through the gift of prophecy endowed upon one of their founding members, Ellen G. White.

Many assume that the bow refers to an archer's bow. However, no arrows are mentioned. This may in fact refer to the victor's bow, the draped garland familiar even today in political conventions.

Crucially important is the statement: "a crown was given unto him." Christ receives His crown in the Judgment. In the prophecy of the Judgment in Daniel seven, that is when Christ receives His kingdom (see verse14). And in order to receive His kingdom, He must first be crowned as king. Thus the prophecy of the first seal refers to the time early after the Judgment began, in 1844.

Jesus is said to go forth at this time "conquering and to conquer." Notice this is said of the rider, not of the horse. This is in keeping with the depiction of the Judgment in Daniel seven, for there it is revealed that the Judgment is what will ultimately result in the destruction of the persecuting power that opposes God and His people (see Daniel 7:21, 22, 26). This is also the time when the message that restores the true place of God's sanctuary (see Daniel 8:11) began to go to all the world.

When the Second Seal Was Opened

"...there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword." (Rev. 6:4)

This is not another church, but a new phase in the experience of the church, and its rider appears to personify the spirit of the times in which the church lives, as if men wise in the ways of the world are now leading the church by their authority, and the church is no longer led primarily by Jesus. This does not mean the church is in apostasy, but it is backsliding from the former purity of its humble trust in the Lord.

Red is the symbol for bloodshed. The great sword refers to major warfare. After the first decades of the Judgment, the dominant experience of the church was living amid major wars. This included events leading up to the American Civil War, when many Adventist families offered their homes to serve as stops on the "Underground Railroad" for escaping slaves. It culminated in World Wars I and II, in which millions of soldiers fought, and tens of millions of people died. Though few Adventists were willing to take up arms, many served as medics, such as Desmond T. Doss, the only Conscientious Objector to earn the Congressional Medal of Honor in WWII.

When the Third Seal Was Opened

"...lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand. And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine." (Rev. 6:5b, 6)

Black signifies mourning. The Hebrew word for black, qadar, is also translated as mourning in such texts as Jeremiah 4:28; 8:21; 14:2.

Many people assume that the voice that declares the prices of certain commodities, is a merchant's voice. But this overlooks where the voice comes from. Revelation 4:5 tells us: "...and in the midst of the throne, and round about the throne, were four beasts full of eyes before and behind." So then, the voice comes from the throne of God. Rather than offering a sales pitch, the voice from the "seat of government" is issuing commands about pricing. What is depicted here is command economics, the hallmark of the communist system, which plunged half of Europe and much of Asia into a nightmare of privation, misery and enforced atheism that lasted for decades.

Command economics might be illustrated by the story of a command government gave a factory to produce 100,000 soccer balls that would sell for only a few kopecks each. The factory had to balance the meager funds available against costs of materials and manufacture, and meet the commanded quantities and price. They wound up producing soccer balls out of thin plastic, so flimsy that they burst the first time they were kicked. When the same command economics was applied to food production, the result was food at the commanded price, but little food could actually be found in the stores. People lined up for blocks, waiting for hours, to have their chance to purchase whatever was left on the mostly bare shelves. A black market thrived.

As for the oil and the wine, it might be noted that whatever scarcities there might be, there always seemed to be abundant liquor. And the discovery of the Siberian oil fields provided abundant oil.

The balances in the rider's hand signify judgment, the same as when Daniel read the handwriting on the wall, and said that Babylon was "weighed in the balances, and...found wanting." (Daniel 5:27) So communism was judged and found wanting, and came to be repudiated by those who lived in the lands that had been overshadowed by its dark regime.

When the Fourth Seal Was Opened

John wrote: "And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth." (Rev. 6:8)

Paleness connotes sickness or dismay, as in Isaiah 29:22; Jeremiah 30:6. Hell (sheol) means the grave.

How do you kill someone with [b]death? The Bubonic Plague used to be called "the Black Death." Fatal disease is death.

This prophecy applies today, since we live after the start of the judgment, after the time of the great wars, and after the heyday of communism. Now we hear of fearfully anticipated pandemics. More than a quarter of the population of Africa is infected with HIV. There seems to be a new strain of virulent flu every year, and medical authorities are hard-pressed to have vaccines ready to meet the new Swine Flu, or Bird Flu, or West Nile Virus.

We hear ominous warnings about the prion-caused "Mad Cow Disease" (Creutzfeldt-Jacob Disease in humans). Notice that with most of these diseases, "the beasts of the earth" are disease vectors.

Local wars and terrorist attacks continue to occur in various places. War has always had starvation as one of its consequences, as the means of food production and distribution are disrupted.

According to this prophecy, these things will only get worse, ultimately affecting a fourth of the world's population.
This is where we are now in the prophecies of the seven seals.

When the Fifth Seal Was Opened

we are presented with the "souls under the altar" figuratively crying out for the executive phase of judgment to avenge their martyrdom. Being given white robes is something that happens in the investigative phase of the Judgment, and the souls are told that "they should rest yet for a little season" until the martyrs from the final conflict have joined them. (Rev. 6:11). Anyone who would raise questions here about the state of the dead should note that these "souls" are told to continue resting. So evidently they were not already frolicking in the bliss of heaven! This seal indicates the important juncture where the Judgment passes from exclusive consideration of the dead, to consider those now living. It is during the Judgment of the Living that the events of the final conflict transpire, to try and test all who live on earth (see Revelation 3:10).

When the Prophecy of the Sixth Seal Comes to Pass

we will already be approaching the close of the final conflict. Indeed, this prophecy brings us up to the time when the sign of Christ's Coming can be seen in the sky, and the wicked cry for the mountains to fall on them and hide them from the face of the Lamb (see Revelation 6:15-17).

A question is asked at the end of this prophecy: "...who shall be able to stand?" (v. 17) This question is answered by the next chapter, as it presents the symbolic 144,000 who receive the special, end-time seal of God, and the great multitude who are said to be those who "came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (Rev. 7:14) These are the ones who "shall be able to stand" at Christ's Coming.

The Seals Are Completed With the Opening of the Seventh

in Revelation 8:1: "And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour."

After the Cross, there can only be one time when heaven is silent. That would be when the Divine Trinity, the angels, the beasts, the elders, and all others who frequent heaven have joined in the glorious procession to earth in Christ's Second Coming, to gather His saints and bring them to heaven.

If the specified period "about...half an hour" is considered symbolic prophetic time, where a day equals a year, then this would work out to a little over a week if we take a 60-minute hour, or about 15 days if we take the kind of two-hour hour or watch that was sometimes used in the New Testament (as in Acts 23:23). This would be the time required for the round trip. Perhaps the redeemed of earth will stop off at some planet along the way to keep the Sabbath before they enter heaven.

Decades NOT Wasted

There are some people who have doubted that the views of Seventh-day Adventists about the 2300-days time prophecy of Daniel 8:14 and its termination date in 1844 mean much. The doctrine of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment has been deemed irrelevant, and perhaps even contrary to the gospel. The decades since 1844 have been called "wasted decades." But we see now why these doctrines must concern us greatly. The doctrine of the Judgment affirms emphatically the gospel of righteousness by faith through the imputed righteousness of Christ. And we see that the decades since 1844 have not been wasted time. They are in fact delineated in Bible prophecy, and we can still trace the prophesied sequence of events and see where we are in them, and how close we are to the time of the end.

The hour of God's Judgment has come. It has been unfolding as predicted, according to God's order. The Judgment of the Living is about to begin, when all on earth will be tested. We are surely nearing the end of the fourth seal.

END

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#118403 - 03/29/07 08:31 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Clio Offline
The King's Daughter


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 2748
Loc: Alaska
Thank you, Ron.

The unfolding of the 5th seal is imminent.
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#118961 - 04/02/07 03:02 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Clio]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
The disease epidemics and other troubles associated with the fourth seal will ultimately affect one-fourth of the world's population, according to the prophecy. We may not be too far from that, but I think the situation still has room to worsen. It will worsen until we see the general afflictions of society predicted by the first trumpet, which heralds the actual beginning of the final conflict.

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#118964 - 04/02/07 03:10 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Clio Offline
The King's Daughter


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 2748
Loc: Alaska
Do not be surprised at the speed with which events will unfold from this year forward.
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#118975 - 04/02/07 04:34 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Clio]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Just a note. Dr. Jon Paulien, whose rules you selected for exegesis, and whose specialty is Revelation, taught Stefanovic, and they both agree that Rev. 4&5 is a depiction of Christ's coronation, and not a judgment scene. The seals, then, are the stages or aspects of God's plan beginning at Pentecost and moving through subsequent history.

There are, as you might suspect, very good reasons for that interpretation.
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#118976 - 04/02/07 04:35 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Clio Offline
The King's Daughter


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 2748
Loc: Alaska
No doubt... but judgement and coronation are not exclusive.
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#118977 - 04/02/07 04:49 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Clio]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Perhaps. But the timing factor is. Because he has the seals opening at the beginning of the Christian era, not after 1844. In fact, the first six seals have already opened long ago.
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“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119001 - 04/02/07 07:30 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Clio Offline
The King's Daughter


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 2748
Loc: Alaska
Hmmmm... Maybe. However, I'm not yet convicted of my alternate interpretation to be willing to offer it at this time.

However, I have noticed that there seems to be several fulfillments of prophecy prior to it's final fulfillment. Kind of type, type, anti-type, final fulfillment.

Not sure how that applies here, because I'm still doing my homework, but it could. Not saying it does, just that it could. Which would make both Ron Lambert's and the historical view both true.

And I would add the caveat that I'm not certain anti-type belongs in my above statement. I do know that there are repetitions and enlargements of prophecy, because that pattern obtains throughout Daniel and Revelation.

I prefer to watch, study, and to keep an open mind. I have learned to my detriment that as soon as I think I have Abba figured out... He opens up something new for me to think on, study, and chew over.

Clio
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#119013 - 04/02/07 08:28 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Clio]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Unfortunately, Ron doesn't start with a series of hermeneutical principles, and then apply them systematically to the text.

Ron clearly starts out to harmonize Rev 4-5 with his understanding of the "Investigative Judgment." So he includes the evidence that conforms to that purpose, and he excludes or ignores, in some cases he never even becomes aware, of evidence that contradicts or fails to match his purpose.

In fact, it has serious problems.

Revelation turns out to be a remarkably easy book to understand, when we take it on its terms, and don't attempt to superimpose our ideas on it.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119017 - 04/02/07 08:39 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Clio Offline
The King's Daughter


Registered: 03/30/05
Posts: 2748
Loc: Alaska
Thanks EDD.
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#119272 - 04/04/07 12:33 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Clio]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
EDD, let me post here the rebuttal to Dr. Stefanovic's paper on Revelation 4-5 which he presented at the Symposium on Eschatology at Andrews this past March 1-3. I earlier posted this in the Laodicea thread, but apparently you did not see it. I think that any objective person will concede that I completely refuted every one of his arguments, and presented much stronger arguments in favor of my position.

EDD, I am willing to debate any SDA scholar on the face of the earth over these important matters. So far, I have not found anyone willing to. Including Profs. Stefanovic and Paulien, to whom I have sent copies of my paper on Rev. 4-5 and the Seven Seals, and my rebuttal to Dr. Stefanovic's paper. They seem to fear me once they discover the quality of my scholarship and how effectively I deal with their arguments. Notice how convincingly I took a "proof-text" Dr. Stefanovic put forward, Rev. 6:10, pointed out it is talking about the executve phase of the judgment, and then turned it into a proof-text for my position when I added verse 11, which says the souls under the altar are then given white robes, something that happens during the Investigative Phase of the Judgment.

------------------------------------------------------------

At a recent symposium on eschatology held at Andrews University March 1-3, 2007, Professor Ranko Stefanovic, (author of Revelation of Jesus Christ: Commentary on the Book of Revelation) presented a paper on Revelation 4-5 and the Seven Seals. A copy of his presentation was forwarded to me. Since he is a responsible spokesman for tbe traditionalist view, and gave a fairly comprehensive summary of all the arguments defenders of this view use, I think it would be illuminating for me to share with you the rebuttal I sent him a few weeks ago. (I am still waiting for a response.)

Dear Professor Stefanovic,

Pastor A__________ forwarded to me the copy you sent to him of your presentation on Revelation 4-5 at the recent symposium on eschatology at Andrews. I hope you will not mind if I offer a rebuttal.

You offered this guideline, with which I heartily agree: "...it is necessary, first of all, to remind ourselves of the fundamental hermenutical [sic] principle that, in dealing with the Bible, no preconceived idea must be imposed on nor govern the interpretation of the text. An exposition of a Bible passage must not be controlled by an assumption regarding its meaning, regardless of how appealing it might be to us."

That last sentence must especially impose a burden on those seeking to defend what has been the majority viewpoint among Adventists, since they face the strongest temptation.

Most of your arguments I answered in my paper on Rev. 4-5 and the Seven Seals. I wrote it for non-SDAs. Please note what a powerful evangelistic appeal this message has, when we start with the central, fundamental pillar of our faith, and show how it is affirmed by the view that Revelation 4-5 depicts the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment, and connects directly with all of us today when we apply the Seven Seals in a manner consistent with this view. I believe this would have a very beneficial impact on our denomination's evangelism.

For the most part, I will follow your paper point-by-point, but one thing I have to address as a priority, because the first two sentences of your conclusion cause me great concern. You said:

“In view of everything presented, one may see that Revelation 4-5 describe the fourth of the great events in the plan of salvation, namely the coronation of the ascended and glorified Christ on the heavenly throne at the right hand of the Father, after his Incarnation and his death and resurrection. There are two events yet to take place: the Second Coming and subsequent final judgment, when God’s plan of salvation will be brought to its conclusion.”

Professor Stefanovic, what about the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment of Daniel seven? I hope this is merely an oversight. As you are surely aware, Dr. Desmond Ford has revived what is in essence the old Ballenger heresy which effectively denied the distinctive central pillar of the Seventh-day Adventist faith, the sanctuary doctrine with its application to the start of the Second Apartment ministry of Christ in the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment in 1844. I have seen indications that some (hopefully only a few) SDA leaders and theologians view with favor Dr. Ford’s attempts to diminish--to the point of dismissing--the importance of this core doctrine. Most of them do not yet advocate Ford’s views openly, but they always refrain from criticizing them, and now and then let slip comments which betray their sympathy with Dr. Ford's position.

I remember from my Principles of Theology class as a ministerial student at Andrews many years ago, that Ellen G. White said that this very thing would be one of the principle issues involved in producing the Shaking that will lead many to depart from the faith and leave the church. Accepting the view of Revelation 4-5 that I advocate would help ward people against this.

Now, on to the point-by-point discussion of your paper:

I do give you credit for listing a number of textual evidences which would appear to tie the heavenly scene in Revelation four and five to the judgment scene in Daniel seven. You acknowledged that both prophecies mention more than one throne in view (Rev. 4:4; Dan. 7:9); God sitting on the flashing throne (Rev. 4:2-3; Dan. 7:9b); the presence of innumerable heavenly beings (Rev. 5:11; Dan. 7:10b); the book or books (Rev. 5:1-5, 7-9; Dan. 7:10c; the Son of Man receiving dominion (Rev. 5:6-9; Dan. 7:13-14); and the presence of the saints (Rev. 5:9; Dan. 7:14).

Nonetheless, I am disappointed on two counts. After stating these textual parallels, you then arbitrarily dismiss them without giving any reason why it is sound, logical scholarship to dismiss them, except for the one involving the book or books. Second, in noting "the presence of innumerable heavenly beings," you gloss over the real parallel, in such manner that an uncritical reader might think it does not amount to much. It would have been fairer and more even-handed to state the real argument, involving the parallel in the unique formulations for the number of heavenly beings:

Revelation 5:11: "And I beheld, and I heard the voice of many angels round about the throne and the beasts and the elders: and the number of them was ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands;" (Emphasis supplied.)

Daniel 7:10: "A fiery stream issued and came forth from before him: thousand thousands ministered unto him, and ten thousand times ten thousand stood before him: the judgment was set, and the books were opened " (Emphasis supplied.)

Other translations render these phrases as "myriads of myriads, and thousands of thousands" (Rev. 5:11; NASB) and "...Thousands upon thousands were attending Him, And myriads upon myriads...." (Dan. 7:10; NASB; NKJV, NRSV, YLT say "thousand thousands" instead of "thousands upon thousands.")

What gives added weight to this parallel is the fact that these two verses are the only places in Scripture where this distinctive, unique formulation is used in describing any multitude, let alone a heavenly one. In any other theological work, involving any other subject in Scripture, such a strong and unique textual parallel would be given great weight.

Concerning the matter of the book(s), you noted that in Revelation 5:1-5, 7, 9, only one book is mentioned, while in Daniel 7:10, "books" (plural) are mentioned.

I reply to this by noting that the book mentioned in Revelation five is one particular book that has been sealed, and cannot be opened unless one worthy to open it is found. This does not mean there are not other books. They were not the subject of this narrative. The book that was sealed must be the book that records the faith and works of those who profess to be God's people. Those are the things that need to be consulted so it can be determined who is to be numbered as a part of Christ's kingdom, and what their rewards in the Kingdom should be; and they cannot be consulted unless mankind has a Savior, who in Himself can give their faith and works validity and value. Otherwise, "All our righteousnesses are as filthy rags." (Isaiah 64:6.)

You added to the above point by noting that in Daniel, "the books are opened first, and then the Son of Man appears." Again, the one book that has not been opened yet as Revelation 5 begins is the one that was sealed. Other books could already have been opened. This is the logical way for it to be discovered that one book cannot be opened.

You said: "...the book is not open until the eschatological consummation, namely after the Second Coming." I find this statement puzzling. While the prophecies of the various seals may apply over a long range of time, that does not necessarily mean that Jesus waited hundreds of years before opening each seal. John saw the seals opened one after another, apparently in rapid succession. Thus the book is fully opened right away, in time to be used in the heavenly ceremony.

Next you said that John "deliberately avoids judgment language.” You see him as avoiding judgment language just because he does not use the word "judgment," or any of the Greek words or derivatives that connote judgment. I can with fairness point out that the word "inauguration" or any Greek words or derivatives that connote inauguration do not appear in Revelation 4-5.

You also claimed that only the second part of Revelation is eschatological. I assume by this you are implying that the first part of Revelation applies to what to us now is past history, and only the latter part of Revelation refers to the end of time.

In reply to this, I have to point out that here you are merely stating your view that Revelation is divided up this way. That is your opinion, not evidence. This is the question to be answered. I contend that the entire book is eschatological. The first part of Revelation relates to the one important thing that has not happened yet, that must happen before Christ can come--the Judgment. There are comments in the message to each of the seven churches that imply a soon-coming judgment, but the clearest is in the message to the church of Philadelphia in Revelation 3:10: "Because you have kept My command to persevere, I also will keep you from the hour of trial which shall come upon the whole world, to test those who dwell on the earth." (NKJV; emphasis supplied.) I believe it much better fits the text to conclude that the first vision, of the seven churches, depicts the churches of Christendom that shall exist at the point when they are about to enter the Judgment of the Living. That is followed by depictions of the Judgment and events associated with it. Then the rest of Revelation concerns the aftermath of that Judgment, leading up to the Final Judgment after the Millennium, and the restoration of Paradise in the New Earth.

The Bible teaches us that God's practice is to judge mankind in an investigative sense by trial and testing, before He acts to execute judgment. The Hebrew word used for this investigative judgment is bachan, which signifies: examine, scrutinize, try, prove, test. It is used 19 times in the Old Testament. The same concept is also presented in the New Testament (for example, see Rev. 2:22, 23; 3:10).

While the word "judgment" itself does not appear in Revelation 5, there are statements that an investigation is being made to find someone who is worthy (v. 2); and then that "no man was FOUND worthy" (vs. 3-4). This is a judicial statement! Then the Lamb is FOUND to be worthy (vs. 5-9). Again, this is a judicial statement! And as a result of the Lamb being found worthy to open the book, the four beasts and 24 elders sing a song of praise to the Lamb for saving mankind (vs. 9, 10).

You raised the question of the reference to a judgment yet future in Revelation 6:10, the prophecy of the fifth seal. However, careful reading of the text makes it clear that what the figurative "souls under the altar" are calling for is THE EXECUTIVE PHASE of the Judgment. They are calling for God to “avenge” them. This request is specifically answered in the pouring out of the third plague, which comes after the Investigative Judgment has concluded and probation has closed:

"And the third angel poured out his vial upon the rivers and fountains of waters; and they became blood. And I heard the angel of the waters say, Thou art righteous, O Lord, which art, and wast, and shalt be, because thou hast judged thus. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy." (Rev. 16:4-6.)

Most importantly, look at the rest of the text concerning the fifth seal, Revelation 6:11: "And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled."

Please note that the souls under the altar are said to be given white robes. This is something that occurs during the Investigative Phase of the Judgment. (See Zechariah 3:1-5.) Thus Revelation 6:10, 11 is actually a proof-text for my position.

We see that the fifth seal depicts the figurative souls under the altar calling for the executive phase of the judgment. They are given white robes as they receive "Justification full and complete" (as Ellen White put it) in the Investigative Judgment, and they are told they must wait while judgment is expanded to include those now living as the final conflict takes place, wherein the last of the martyrs are to be added to the number of martyrs of all ages. Thus the fifth seal gives us the juncture at which Judgment is expanded from consideration only of the dead, to the Judgment of the Living.

You said: "the jubilant atmosphere that dominates the scene of Revelation 4-5 does not point to a court in session.”

But this overlooks Revelation 5:2-4: "And I saw a strong angel proclaiming with a loud voice, Who is worthy to open the book, and to loose the seals thereof? And no man in heaven, nor in earth, neither under the earth, was able to open the book, neither to look thereon. And I wept much, because no man was found worthy to open and to read the book, neither to look thereon."

When the strong angel proclaimed with a loud voice, "Who is worthy to open the book...?"--that was not a time of jubilation. Nor was anyone cheering when no man was found worthy to open the book. John surely was not partaking of any jubilant atmosphere when he "wept much."

You also claimed that "The acclamations of glory, honor, power, wealth, wisdom, blessing, and might...do not fit into a judgment scene."

To that I would reply that there is always praise and adoration to God being sounded in heaven at all times. Note Revelation 4:8: "And the four beasts had each of them six wings about him; and they were full of eyes within: and they rest not day and night, saying, Holy, holy, holy, LORD God Almighty, which was, and is, and is to come." (Emphasis supplied.)

You said: "Numerous studies, done especially among Seventh-day Adventist authors, have shown that the structural composition of the first half of the book covers the span of history from Christ’s ascension until the time of the end, while the second half focuses primarily on the time of the end and the final events of this earth’s history....These two divisions of the book correspond to the two phases of Christ’s ministry in heaven: the first one relates to the Holy Place which he entered after his ascension to heaven, and the second, his pre-advent judgment ministry, relates to the Most Holy Place."

The fact that many other writers share your opinion means no more than that. I realize that the idea of consensus has become fairly pronounced in some circles in recent years. The new editor of the Journal of the Adventist Theological Society told me recently that those who do the peer-reviewing expect any manuscript sent to them for consideration to have citations from other theological works "virtually every other sentence." (His words.)

I will stipulate as a given that your position has been the majority view among SDAs for over 150 years. That is why I believe it is high time it were corrected, because it is not Biblically sound, and it stands in the way of receiving new light from God's Word. This is one of the reasons why our church has seen no further advancement in what Ellen White termed "Present Truth" in over a century. The majority view that holds us back is undoubtedly part of what Jesus referred to as things that cause us to believe we are "rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing." (Rev. 3:17) Since what Jesus offers us in their place are spiritual things, it is likely that He was also talking about spiritual riches and spiritual goods that we think we already have. We think we know the truth, or just about all of it, with maybe just a few minor details yet to be filled in. Jesus is telling us Laodiceans that we are more ignorant that we realize, and our pride in the things we think we know is preventing us from being corrected so we can advance in knowledge of the truth.

The following statements by Ellen G. White provide great encouragement to me for continuing to study the prophecies of Daniel and Revelation:

"The book of Revelation opens with an injunction to us to understand the instruction that it contains….When we as a people understand what this book means to us, then there will be seen among us a great revival. We do not understand fully the lessons that it teaches…." – Testimonies to Ministers and Gospel Workers, p. 113

"Great truths that have lain unheeded and unseen since the day of Pentecost, are to shine from God's word in their native purity. To those who truly love God the Holy Spirit will reveal truths that have faded from the mind, and will also reveal truths that are entirely new. Those who eat the flesh and drink the blood of the Son of God will bring from the books of Daniel and Revelation truth that is inspired by the Holy Spirit. They will start into action forces that cannot be repressed." – Sabbath Review and Advent Herald, August 17,1897, p. 19

I for one hope to see that promised "great revival." So I would help with the contributions the Lord has enabled me to make through my application of Rev. 4-5 to the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment, and extending that logically to show that the seven seals prophecy and the seven trumpets prophecy all relate to the judgment hour; and through my expositions of how everything in Daniel 11:40 to the end of chapter 12 applies to the time of the end, as the text states six times. I have papers already written on all of these, which I will share with you if you would like to see them.

In regard to your statement that the first part of Revelation relates to Christ's first apartment ministry, let me say that such a revelation is unnecessary. Christ's first apartment ministry is already set forth in the book of Hebrews. To me it makes far more sense to understand that Jesus gave His Revelation through John largely to make known the one major event of salvation history that yet must take place before His return--the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment.

Let me remind you of what Revelation 1:1 says: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John," (NRSV)

When Jesus spoke these words to John, His first apartment ministry had already begun, and in fact had already been on-going for some 60 years. Therefore nothing in Revelation logically can have anything to do with Christ's first apartment ministry, because that was not something that was soon to come. Only His second apartment ministry was yet to come.

You correctly observed that "...if Revelation 4-5 describes the pre-advent judgment scene of 1844, then the events on earth triggered by the breaking of the seals by Christ must take place after the year 1844." In the paper which I attach with this, I set forth how these prophecies do apply to history since 1844. Not only is the fit perfect in every particular, this interpretation makes it clear where we are in the approach to the final conflict. Non-SDAs who hear this preached will be impressed by the way Bible prophecy impacts them in the here and now, and not just be left feeling disconnected from events that happened hundreds of years ago.

Unfortunately, you went on to say: "Such an interpretation would fit the futurist rather than the historicist interpretation of the seals and the trumpets." I must object strongly to being disparaged by this pejorative term, futurism. I do not believe anything like what Francisco Ribera taught. Revisiting a prophecy many have previously thought applied in the past, and showing that it has a future application, is not necessarily futurism. When Ellen White shocked the SDA church when she proclaimed that the letter to the Loadiceans had special application to the Seventh-day Adventist Church, that did not make her a futurist, even though many before then had thought that the letters to the seven churches applied primarily to the literal churches addressed by John in his day.

You referred to the "springboard test" involving Revelation 3:21: "To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne." The promise that He will grant overcomers to sit with Him in His throne is a reference to the soon-coming Judgment. Christ had a throne before He came to earth. After His Ascension, He was permitted to retake His seat of authority and crown that were already His as Creator-God of the universe. But are humans entitled to take their seats with Him prior to the Judgment? Their right to sit enthroned with Christ is the very thing that is to be determined in the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment. The Judgment is not about whether Christ is entitled to take the throne that was His since time immemorial. But receiving His Davidic crown as King of Israel, when He receives His kingdom of humanity as foretold in Daniel 7:14, is what the Judgment is about.

I cannot see any justification for your statement that "The key terms and phrases used in the chapter point to the enthronement ceremony.... " It is the Judgment that establishes the worthiness of the Lamb to open the book, which in turn establishes the right of humans to become part of the kingdom of Christ. When we talk about Christ who is to sit on the Davidic throne, we are talking about the Judgment.

I do not concur that the book that was sealed necessarily corresponds to the covenant scroll given to a King upon His accession. Rather, the indications are that the sealed book pertained to man. John wept because it is man who will be lost if it cannot be opened. The covenant "scroll" (or stone tablets) is the Ten Commandments, which were written in the form of a suzerainty treaty typical in Old Testament times.

You said: "The context indicates clearly that Revelation 4-5 refer to the inauguration of Christ into his kingly/priestly ministry that took place at Pentecost in AD 31. The statement from Revelation 5:8, 'the seven Spirits of God sent out into all the earth' is clear textual evidence for such an understanding (cf. 1:4; 4:5)."

There was, of course an outpouring of the Holy Spirit at Pentecost, as Christ was inaugurated into His role as High Priest. But so also there will be another, even greater, outpouring of the Holy Spirit in the Latter Rain, when Jesus is crowned as King of the Redeemed in the Judgment.

I also must signal a caution where you said: "Even though Revelation 4-5 is not a judgment scene, judgment may not be totally excluded from the enthronement. Judgment was always a part of ancient enthronement ceremonies also had judgment significance. When Christ was installed on the heavenly throne, (which is also the throne of judgment [Rev 20:11-15; cf. Dan 7:9-10]), he assumed both royal and judging offices (cf. John 12:31-32)." If you would roll the judgment of the world together with the Inauguration of Christ, then what need is there left for the Judgment of Daniel seven? While a judgment of the world and Satan took place at the Crucifixion of Christ, because a demonstration had been made that revealed to all the true spirit of Satan and the world, that was not part of His Inauguration but of His Crucifixion. And the true Investigative Judgment of all the world was yet future, at the time appointed in the prophecies of Daniel seven and eight. Confounding the two is not "rightly dividing the word of truth." (2 Tim. 2:15)

I have already responded to your conclusions. One, in voicing my concern at your omission of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment of Daniel 7 in your enumeration of "the great events in the plan of salvation." And second, your claims that the first part of Revelation, including chapters four and five, relate to the first apartment ministry of Christ. You mentioned the book of Hebrews in this regard, and I also noted that the first apartment ministry of Christ was adequately revealed in Hebrews, and that Revelation 1:1 tells us that the concern of the book of Revelation was something that was soon to come--this stated after the first apartment ministry of Christ had already been on-going for some 60 years.

You also included with your presentation you gave at the recent symposium on eschatology at Andrews, a short compilation of quotations from Ellen G. White, entitled, "Ellen White and Revelation 4-5."

First, you presented several quotations where Ellen White used language from Revelation 4-5 in speaking of Christ's Inauguration. In answer to that, let me quote this from the SDA Bible Commentary, a portion of the second paragraph of the note following Revelation 5:13:

"To what point in the great controversy do the symbolic scenes portrayed in chs. 4 and 5 refer? According to DA 834 the song was sung by the angels when Christ was installed at the right hand of God after ascension. Also, according to AA 601, 602; GC 671, this song will be sung by the saints at the establishment of the new earth and by the redeemed and angels in eternity (8T 44; cf. PP 541; GC 545, 678)."

It is well known that Ellen G. White frequently made use of Scripture in a literary sense, and not in an exegetical sense. Thus the fact that in DA 834 she quoted passages from Revelation chapters four and five in connection with the installation of Christ at the right hand of God after His Ascension, proves nothing. As acknowledged by Dr. Francis D. Nichols, author of the above statement in the Commentary, she also quoted passages from these chapters in her discussion of the establishment of a new earth in AA 601, 602; GC 671. And again, she cited passages from these chapters in statements concerning the redeemed and angels in eternity in 8T 44; PP541; GC 545, 678. Clearly all these represent literary uses of the passages in question, and cannot constitute arguments about the proper exegetical application of Revelation chapters four and five.

I have written a short paper concerning what I feel are improper uses of Ellen G. White, and what is the right way for us to regard her writings if we are truly going to respect her authority as an inspired writer; specifically that she insisted we are to go by the Bible and the Bible alone in establishing all matters of faith and doctrine, and did not approve of using her writings above or in place of the Bible. She had some very strong words for church leaders who abused her writings in this way. She also wrote some statements that clearly left the door open for last-day application of Revelation 11 and of the seven trumpets.

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#119274 - 04/04/07 12:52 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
They seem to fear me once they discover the quality of my scholarship and how effectively I deal with their arguments.


Interesting assessment. Personally, I recall reviewing a similar position paper you posted on C/A, and seeing what appeared to be some errors. There are other possible explanations for the named scholars declining to engage with you.

Quote:
Notice how convincingly I took a "proof-text" Dr. Stefanovic put forward, Rev. 6:10, pointed out it is talking about the executve phase of the judgment, and then turned it into a proof-text for my position when I added verse 11, which says the souls under the altar are then given white robes, something that happens during the Investigative Phase of the Judgment.


Very well. Let's take a look at this one item. Later today, I shall look forward to examining your position in detail. Until then,

I remain, sir,
Your obedient servant,
David F. Koot

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#119277 - 04/04/07 01:12 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


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David, perhaps you would be willing to specify what errors you believe I made previously in discussing the application of Rev. 4-5 to the judgment. I do challenge your statement.

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#119292 - 04/04/07 03:55 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
I do challenge your statement.


And I should be glad to pick up your glove from the floor. But at the moment, I wish to start with the specific item you have mentioned above.

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#119314 - 04/04/07 05:22 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


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Rev. 6:10: The figurative souls under the altar cry out for God to judge those who martyred them.

My point: They are calling for the executive phase of judgment, because they ask for God to "avenge" them.

Rev. 6:11: Then the souls under the altar are said to be given white robes.

My point: This is something that happens during the Investigative phase of the judgment. This proves that the Investigative Judgment is going forward during the time of the fifth seal.

Then the further statement in v. 11 that the martyrs are to wait until the last of the martyrs yet to be martyred joins them, indicates that this is the very juncture between the Judgment exclusively of the dead, and the Judgment of the Living, when the final conflict takes place and the last martyrs are martyred.

Thus I can claim Rev. 6:10-11 as a proof text for my position, where Dr. Stefanovic had tried to use part of it (verse 10 alone) as a proof text for his position.

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#119316 - 04/04/07 05:55 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Ron Lambert Offline


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Let me also give this critique of methodology:

Prof. Stefanovic focused only on the phrase in Rev. 6:10, "How long...dost thou not judge...?"

He did not notice the next two words: "and avenge" which should have tipped him off that the phase of judgment might be executive, not investigative.

He failed thus to rightly define the term "judge." He failed to note which phase of judgment was being referred to.

In fact, Dr. Stefanovic did not consider anything else in the text of the prophecy of the fifth seal. I find this to be a typical failing of everyone who tries to defend the traditional views of Rev. 4-5, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and Daniel 12. They always, always seize upon a few select words, and never take into consideration everything in the text.

IN CONTRAST: I do take care to rightly define all terms, including "judge," and I do take full and proper note of every specification in the text of the prophecy of the fifth seal. My interpretation reflects this consideration of all elements in the text.

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#119386 - 04/04/07 09:56 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Quote:
EDD, I am willing to debate any SDA scholar on the face of the earth over these important matters. So far, I have not found anyone willing to. Including Profs. Stefanovic and Paulien, to whom I have sent copies of my paper on Rev. 4-5 and the Seven Seals, and my rebuttal to Dr. Stefanovic's paper. They seem to fear me once they discover the quality of my scholarship and how effectively I deal with their arguments.


Let me put your mind at ease. I am confident they do not fear you. They get enough unsolicited mail on these subjects to occupy all their spare time.

Simply pointing out the mistakes in a paper such as yours would take quite a bit of time--time better spent on helping people interested in learning from them.

One basic error is classifying them as holding the 'traditionalist' view.

I'm curious. What significance, if any, do you attribute to appearance of various pieces of sanctuary furniture?
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119405 - 04/05/07 12:41 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert


He did not notice the next two words: "and avenge"


I beg your pardon? "did not notice"? A bit of a leap on your part, don't you think? And rather demeaning of the professor's ability. After all, the words are right there in the passage, and we are talking about a university professor. I should think that he would have "noticed" the words.

Quote:

He failed thus to rightly define the term "judge." He failed to note which phase of judgment was being referred to.


Why would it have to be that? Why could it not be referring to two phases of the judgment? After all, the executive judgment follows the evidentiary phase.

Quote:
They . . . never take into consideration everything in the text.


Oh really? How do you know?

Quote:
IN CONTRAST: I do take care to rightly define all terms, including "judge," and I do take full and proper note of every specification in the text of the prophecy of the fifth seal. My interpretation reflects this consideration of all elements in the text.


We shall see. Tally ho!


Edited by David Koot (04/05/07 12:42 AM)

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#119425 - 04/05/07 10:06 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, you said: "Simply pointing out the mistakes in a paper such as yours would take quite a bit of time--time better spent on helping people interested in learning from them."

You cannot point out even one mistake in my paper(s). At least you haven't so far. People are better off spending their time reading the right interpretation--the only one that has been arrived at using sound scholarship, meaning consistent, Biblical methods of interpretation that take into consideration all specifications in the text.

EDD, you also said: "Oh really? How do you know? [that they . . . never take into consideration everything in the text.]"

Because in 20 years of reading their attempts to defend the traditional views of Revelation 4-5, the Seven Seals, the Seven Trumpets, and Daniel 12, I have yet to find even once where they do not ignore most of the text, and only dwell on those portions they can bend to fit their theses. They HAVE to ignore most of the text, because the traditional views demonstrably do not satisfy all the specifications in the text. This is why I became dissatisfied with the traditional views in the first place. That and the inconsistencies and contradictions. Such as: Uriah Smith defines "bottomless pit" in Revelation 9:1, 2, 11 as the Arabian Desert, but then he defines "bottomless pit" in Revelation 11:7, 8 as atheism manifested in Paris, France during the French Revolution. And then again he defines the same term in Revelation 20:1, 3 as the ruined surface of the depopulated earth during the millennium. More careful scholarship reveals that the prophetic symbol "bottomless pit" designates a place or state of restraint wherein the devils are held. This should be obvious from Revelation 20:1. Notice the chain! The devils get out of the bottomless pit when restraints are removed. When the symbol bottomless pit is interpreted consistently this way in every case, it results in an overall interpretration that makes much better sense.

EDD, you also said: "One basic error is classifying them as holding the 'traditionalist' view."

Give me a break! The majority view of Seventh-Day Adventists on the interpretation of these prophecies that has been held essentially the same for 150 years, can fairly be described as "traditionalist." This is the sole reason these views are maintained, despite superior Biblical arguments against them: Because church tradition is being exalted, just like among Catholics, whether you want to admit it or not. That is really the attitude these expositors exhibit. It is this attitude that the church can never be wrong in any of its traditional teachings about anything, that blocks any further progress in advancing "present truth," by shutting out any new light. Since Revelation 19:10 tells us that "the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy," this means that when greater and clearer views of what Bible prophecy mean is shut out, it is the testimony of Jesus that is being shut out and kept from the people.

David, you said: "I beg your pardon? 'did not notice'? A bit of a leap on your part, don't you think? And rather demeaning of the professor's ability. After all, the words are right there in the passage, and we are talking about a university professor. I should think that he would have 'noticed' the words."

Oh come on! I did not say they never read the words. I am saying they never took note of the words in their interpretation. As for demeaning the professors' abilities, do you mean to imply that if I disagree with and validly refute what the professors wrote, I am demeaning them? Any demeaning, they do to themselves, by exhibiting inferior and unworthy scholarship. And right, they are university professors. So what is their excuse?

David, you also said: "Why would it have to be that? Why could it not be referring to two phases of the judgment? After all, the executive judgment follows the evidentiary phase."

Just read the text like a normally intelligent person, and quit trying to twist it to excuse a poor interpretation. Can you honestly deny that Revelation 6:10 is talking about the souls under the alter crying out for God to exact vengeance on their murderers? That's what it says! And that is NOT a part of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment. Being given white robes (as in verse 11) is what IS truly a part of the Investigative phase of the judgment.

So far, neither of you has made a valid point.

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#119429 - 04/05/07 10:27 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert


Let me remind you of what Revelation 1:1 says: "The revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave him to show his servants what must soon take place; he made it known by sending his angel to his servant John," (NRSV)

When Jesus spoke these words to John, His first apartment ministry had already begun, and in fact had already been on-going for some 60 years. Therefore nothing in Revelation logically can have anything to do with Christ's first apartment ministry, because that was not something that was soon to come. Only His second apartment ministry was yet to come . . .

Revelation 1:1 tells us that the concern of the book of Revelation was something that was soon to come--this stated after the first apartment ministry of Christ had already been on-going for some 60 years.


Well, you certainly DO present a lot of material! I have selected one point to respond to here, quoted above. First of all, I note that some events depicted in Revelation had already occurred at the time John wrote the book--one obvious example is the birth of Jesus and the depiction of the Jewish church prior to the birth of Jesus. The birth of Jesus occurred before His first-apartment ministry. Another example is the fall of satan from heaven, and his war against God in heaven. These events began before the creation of this world. Thus, one cannot accurately claim that the only events depicted in John's day were still in the future, from the point of reference of John's visions.

One danger I perceive in coming to the book of Revelation is attempting to impose a strict chronological construct upon it. The dispensationalists do this, as you may know, with the whole 'church age' timeline, followed by the rapture, etc.

Getting to your point here . . . ch. 1:19 records Christ's charge to John to "write the things which you have seen, and the things which are, and the things which shall take place after these things." Thus, the alpha to omega theme--alpha being the things which are, continuing all the way to end-time events, the omega.
"Things which are" could include the church in John's day. It could include things which had already happened, and were events in existence at the time of John's writing. It could easily include the chain of events from a beginning to a later point in time--the beginning having occurred in John's day or before that--and continuing after that. Several obvious example of that may easily be cited. A couple were referenced above. If the visions John received told a story, then the opening chapters or the prologue of the story could just as well be included, for background and completeness.

Well, let's start with that, and await the response.

Dave

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#119430 - 04/05/07 10:32 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

Just read the text like a normally intelligent person


I have.

Quote:

and quit trying to twist it to excuse a poor interpretation.


I am not the one doing that.

Quote:
And that is NOT a part of the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment.


It is not.

Quote:

Being given white robes (as in verse 11) is what IS truly a part of the Investigative phase of the judgment.


Proof by assertion.

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#119436 - 04/05/07 10:54 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

Rev. 6:11: Then the souls under the altar are said to be given white robes. My point: This is something that happens during the Investigative phase of the judgment.


at what point do these souls cry out to God, and when does Jesus talk to them?

Quote:

This proves that the Investigative Judgment is going forward during the time of the fifth seal.


Does it?

Quote:
Then the further statement in v. 11 that the martyrs are to wait until the last of the martyrs yet to be martyred joins them, indicates that this is the very juncture between the Judgment exclusively of the dead, and the Judgment of the Living, when the final conflict takes place and the last martyrs are martyred.


On what basis do you say that? How do you know?

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#119444 - 04/05/07 11:52 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
EDD, you also said: "Oh really? How do you know? [that they . . . never take into consideration everything in the text.]"


Sorry, not me.

Quote:
Give me a break!


So far I've been doing exactly that.

As to the "traditionalist" charge, both the 7 churches and the trumpets would be significantly different, for a start.

I'm still curious what you make of the various pieces of sanctuary furniture and when they appear in the narrative.

For example, the altar in 6:10. Which one is it, and why is it there?

Ron, I understand you're passionate about your interpretation, but you're going to have to tone down the abusive language "Just read the text like a normally intelligent person, and quit trying to twist it to excuse a poor interpretation."

It weakens your case, and demonstrates why the good Dr.s are wise not to engage you.

As far as pointing out errors in your paper, it is both too easy and too time consuming. ANyone can pick at mistakes. It's much more difficult to define and apply a consistent hermeneutic. Rather than point out errors in your paper, I'd rather explore the text further.
_________________________
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#119451 - 04/05/07 01:14 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
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David, whenever you reference some event in Revelation, it would be good form to cite a text. That way I don't have to guess what specifically you are talking about.

Yes, Revelation 12:1, 4, 5 appear to refer to the birth of Christ, which was before the time John was given the visions he recorded in Revelation. But that is merely an historical flashback, necessary to show how the war portrayed in the sixth trumpet began. This does not change the fact that the main, overall purpose of Revelation was what was announced in Revelation 1:1: "The Revelation of Jesus Christ, which God gave Him to show to His bond-servants, the things which must soon take place; and He sent and communicated it by His angel to His bond-servant John," (NASB)

The purpose of Revelation cannot be to set forth the first apartment ministry of Christ, because that was adequately set forth in the Book of Hebrews, and that first apartment ministry had already been on-going for over 60 years. Just because you can find something somewhere in Revelation that refers to something that happened in the past, does not change what Jesus said was His purpose for giving Revelation to John. You need to be careful in your grasping for straws that you do not wind up making Jesus a liar. Perhaps you have heard of the expression, "the exception which proves the rule." This is the best way to view Rev. 12:1, 4, 5.

The fact that we cannot view Revelation 4-5 as being something that applied to Christ's Inauguration into His first apartment ministry is doubly made clear by the explicit, twice stated timing of Revelation 4-5 that it pertained to the future from John's viewpoint: "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'" (John 4:1; NKJV)

David, you also raised the question of the chronology of Revelation. True, it is not always strictly chronological. But this does not give you license to apply any prophecy to any time in history, willy-nilly. I think the most useful way to view the chronology of Revelation is that it is chronological within a prophecy, and the prophecies are given in the order Jesus chose to give them, which very often seem to be question-and-answer sequence. For example, at the end of Revelation chaper six, in verse 17, a question is asked: "...the great day of His wrath has come, and who is able to stand?"

Then chapter seven immediately follows with the answers: We are told about the figurative 144,000 who receive the special end-time seal of God (v. 4), and then we are told about the great multitude who "are the ones who come out of the great tribulation, and washed their robes and made them white in the blood of the Lamb." (v. 14) These are the ones who will be able to stand when Jesus appears in the Clouds of Heaven.

Another example of an implied question and answer can be seen at the conclusion of Revelation 9, where a great holocaust has been launched to kill all the righteous. (We know the attack was against the righteous, because the last two verses only mention the wicked as being visible survivors.) The implied question, which any student of Bible prophecy would be expected to ask, is what of the righteous? What is their experience during the terrible conflict? This question is answered by Revelation 10 and 11, as it describes the exprience of God's faithful witnesses. Then at Revelation 11:7, we are brought back to the point of departure at the end of chapter nine--the great war of the wicked against the righteous. It then goes on to describe how the wicked will engage in a Christmas-like exchanging of gifts and so forth. But it also goes on to tell us about the special resurrection and the deliverance of the saints, and their being taken into heaven in a cloud at Jesus' Second Advent, in verses 11, 12. Verse 15 tells us that the seventh trumpet sounds. Thus all that went before after chapter nine was still contained in the account of the fifth and sixth trumpets. (Chapter ten gives us the build-up to the final conflict in the experience of the Righteous.)

A similar question-and-answer sequence can be observed throughout the book of Revelation. Jesus is actually being considerate of us and answering the questions He knows will be raised in our minds at each point.

David, you seem to be trying to take the expression "alpha and omega" out of context. This expression is applied to Jesus Christ Himself, telling us that Jesus is the Beginning and the End. Using this to claim Revelation talks about the past as well as the future is not sound exegesis (at best it is an attempt at a "literary" usage of the phrase), and it tends to contradict Jesus' declaration in Revelation 1:1.

David, I am amazed that you would question whether being given white robes is something done in the Investigative Judgment. I did not know there was any SDA that did not know this. Do you really need a Bible study on this subject? Start with Zechariah 3:1-5. Go to Jesus' Parable of the Ten Virgins in Matthew 22, and note when the wedding garment is received. Also bear in mind that all of Jesus' kingdom parables are parables about the Judgment, inwhich marriage is a metaphor for the Investigative Judgment. Include Isaiah 61:10; Revelation 19:8. As supplements you could also read tons of accounts by Ellen G. White of the Judgment that mention the white garments in connection with the Investigative Judgment.

You also have asked for a breakdown of the fifth seal. The souls under the altar obviously are figurative. Since they are told to continue resting, it is obvious they were not already frolicking in the bliss of heaven. When do they cry out, and when does Jesus speak to them? In the Investigative Judgment, when all the records are opened and consulted, so that in a sense the martyrs can speak, and Jesus--the One to whom judgment is committed--gives His judicial ruling that the punishments of the executive judgments against those who murdered the martyrs of all the ages are not to be poured out until the final conflict and the Investigative Judgment that parallels it have come to their conclusion. Only then will the martyrs yet to be martyred have their names added to the list of martyrs of all ages. Do you have any remaining questions about this?

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#119455 - 04/05/07 01:47 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, I find your judgmental statements about me obnoxious. The "good doctors" have no excuse for not responding to me, when I have plainly demonstrated superior scholarship. You are just making up excuses for them. "Cease ye from man, whose breath is in his nostrils." (Isaiah 2:22a.) "The truth shall make you free." (John 8:32.)

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#119457 - 04/05/07 02:00 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
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Ron ... I hope to say this with kindness. But, do you really expect others to donate their time to you when your attitude and words clearly indicate that you are above and "superior" to those of whom you are requesting input and time of?

Your attitude does not demonstrate to me someone who would listen with an open ear. You do not appear to be searching because you are "superior" to the rest of us and only want to argue. I can't see any professor that would be willing to engage you with this attitude. And they are NOT required to do so.

I would join David and Ed in saying that I find the words of your posts quite inflammatory and I would add the word arrogant.


Edited by Redwood (04/05/07 02:30 PM)
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#119458 - 04/05/07 02:00 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
an historical flashback, necessary to show


Whatever the necessity, the fact is that events which had occurred prior to the time of John's writing were included in the visions he received. And, as I had suggested, and you acknowledge, in some cases those events may have been included to provide background, to tell the whole story.

Quote:
The purpose of Revelation cannot be to set forth the first apartment ministry of Christ, because that was adequately set forth in the Book of Hebrews,


Let's take another example: Christ's outer court ministry. That was extensively covered in the gospels, but covered as well in the Pauline epistles, in the book of Hebrews, and elsewhere. The fact that a phase of Christ's ministry was described in one place in the Bible, does not mandate that it cannot be described or referred to elsewhere. If Rev. 6 makes a reference to a phase of Christ's ministry that is described elsewhere in more detail, so what? It happens often in Scripture. You have not established any Scriptural rule that supports your assertion. So far, you have stated your opinion. Statements of opinion do not constitute credible evidence for this type of study.

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You need to be careful in your grasping for straws that you do not wind up making Jesus a liar.


I repeat what Ed said: be careful about making such inflammatory statements. If you continue doing that, you can count me out of this discussion.

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This is the best way to view Rev. 12:1, 4, 5.


Again, a statement of your opinion.

Quote:
"After these things


Incorrect. John is describing his experience of receiving another, separate vision. Not chronological. That is what the dispensationalists do.

Quote:

David, you seem to be trying to take the expression "alpha and omega" out of context.


I don't think so, from my study. I am not going to take the time to go over all that.

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it tends to contradict Jesus' declaration in Revelation 1:1.


Or, the opposite may be true. You may be attempting to force the entire book into the confines of your interpration of a single verse.

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David, I am amazed that you would question whether being given white robes is something done in the Investigative Judgment.


Hmmmm . . . well, you seem to be trying to establish a specific time for an account that appears to be figurative or symbolic. That, I would say is an issue. And, yes, I have read the various references you listed, and am quite familiar with them.

Quote:


You also have asked for a breakdown of the fifth seal . . . Do you have any remaining questions about this?


So far, you have stated your opinions. That is not credible evidence. Please provide cites. Also, existing peer review would be helpful.


Edited by David Koot (04/05/07 02:14 PM)

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#119469 - 04/05/07 03:06 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
I find your judgmental statements about me obnoxious.


If you could be specific.

Quote:
I have plainly demonstrated superior scholarship.


Pr. 27:2 Let another praise you, and not your own mouth;
someone else, and not your own lips.

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You are just making up excuses for them


That is really ludicrous. They are scholars of established skill and reputation. They need no excuses from me or anyone else.

And I'm still wondering about the sanctuary furniture. Does your superior scholarship extend to those items?
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119481 - 04/05/07 06:17 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


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Redwood, the fault is in your perception. The Jews wondered how Jesus could be so sure of what He preached, and asked: "How knoweth this man letters, having never learned?" (John 7:15) In other words, how can I rebut university professors and dare to be so sure that I am right and they are wrong? All you have to do is be honest about the weakness of their arguments, as I have exposed them, and the strength of my arguments, as I have given them, which anyone can see for themselves by comparing their arguments and mine with Scripture. Any other considerations are extraneous.

David, you are in fact calling Jesus a liar when you try to overthrow the plain sense of what He said in Revelation 1:1. That is not "inflammatory." You owe Jesus an apology for handling His Word so irresponsibly that you wind up actually questioning His veracity. This IS what you are doing, and it is such a serious error in your methodology, that I have to call you on it, without mincing words. If this is not what you intend to do, then it is incumbent upon you to make this clear, and you need to amend your whole line of argument.

Like so many people do who try to defend the traditionalist view, you try to overthrow the clear sense of Revelation 4:1 by suggesting maybe "After these things" is not meant to show chronological sequence. You ignore the last clause in the verse: "and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." The statements are parallel in construction. Why do you ignore this latter clause? Could it be because it is harder to explain away, so you omit mentioning it, and hope no one will notice?

Would you please ask a more specific question about the sanctuary furniture? What are you getting at when you ask about the altar in Revelation 6:10? Isn't it self-evident?

Let me venture to guess perhaps you have in mind something like the questions some ask about the altar mentioned in Revelation 8:3. Some people question how the angel with the censer could represent Christ in His second apartment ministry, because the altar of incense is generally regarded as being located in the first apartment of the sanctuary. But this altar was involved in the Day of Atonement service. It was said to be "before the ark" (Ex. 40:5) when it was first set up. Hebrews 9:3, 4 explicitly places the altar of incense in the Most Holy Place with the Ark, which perhaps indicates that the dividing curtain was removed in the heavenly sanctuary after the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary (compare Matthew 27:50, 51 with Hebrews 8:5).

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#119483 - 04/05/07 06:27 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert


David, you are in fact calling Jesus a liar when you try to overthrow the plain sense of what He said in Revelation 1:1. That is not "inflammatory." You owe Jesus an apology for handling His Word so irresponsibly that you wind up actually questioning His veracity. This IS what you are doing, and it is such a serious error in your methodology, that I have to call you on it, without mincing words . . .

Once again, you try to overthrow the clear sense of Revelation 4:1 by suggesting maybe "After these things" is not meant to show chronological sequence. Again you ignore the last clause in the verse: "and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter." The statements are parallel in construction. Why do you ignore this latter clause? Could it be because it is harder to explain away, so you omit mentioning it, and hope no one will notice?


That does it. I'm outta here. Ed and Redwood, I wish you well.

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#119486 - 04/05/07 06:43 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


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And still, no one has made a valid point in opposition to what I've said.

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#119488 - 04/05/07 06:44 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
And still, no one has made a valid point in opposition to what I've said.


In your estimation.

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#119491 - 04/05/07 06:55 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Woody Offline
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David ... I do not blame you.

You and I have gone at it many times ... but I am proud to say that as rough as it has been ... we didn't resort to this type of inflammatory and arrogant discourse.

There is no other word I can use here for it other than disgusting.
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#119494 - 04/05/07 06:59 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
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Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
And still, no one has made a valid point in opposition to what I've said.


Ron ... respectfully ... it is not what you say ... it is the way you say it. Do not expect people to devote their valuable time to come to you with the attitude that you possess.

I just pray that you can learn from this.
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#119506 - 04/05/07 07:32 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
Ron Lambert Offline


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Redwood, no one here has been able to counter my arguments on even one point, so you claim there is somethig wrong with my attitude. Thus you answer Bible truth with slander. Whose attitude is really at fault here?

I am the one who has been the target of unfounded personal attacks from several of you, and yet I have not copped out or run off. I ask you directly man-to-man, Christian brother-to-Christian brother, with God as our witness: Do you really care about the true interpretation of Bible prophecy? Or are you merely fond of debate, as long as it is fun to you?

The interpretation of Bible prophecy--making sure that I have it right and fully understand it--is what gives me real joy. Isn't there anyone left in Adventism who feels the same way?

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#119517 - 04/05/07 08:17 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Posts: 3837
Quote:
I am the one who has been the target of unfounded personal attacks from several of you


If you could be specific. You have alleged "judgmentalism" "slander" and "personal attacks." I have seen nothing directed at you personally, so I'm wondering what you have reference to.

ON the other hand, here is an inflammatory paragraph
Quote:
David, you are in fact calling Jesus a liar when you try to overthrow the plain sense of what He said in Revelation 1:1. That is not "inflammatory." You owe Jesus an apology for handling His Word so irresponsibly that you wind up actually questioning His veracity. This IS what you are doing, and it is such a serious error in your methodology, that I have to call you on it, without mincing words.


No, David is not "calling Jesus a liar," he is disagreeing with you over what that text means. Nor did he call you a liar. He disagreed with your understanding.

There are only a couple of ways he could be "calling Jesus a liar."

He could say, "Jesus is lying in that passage," which he did not do.

Or he could say, "You are lying about the meaning of that passage," assuming that you and Jesus are identical. He did not make that statement, and I feel confident that he did not confuse the two of you.


Only God knows motivation. It is not up to you or anyone to assume we know what motivates another. That's a very arrogant and abusive statement.


Quote:
I ask you directly man-to-man, Christian brother-to-Christian brother, with God as our witness: Do you really care about the true interpretation of Bible prophecy?


And I respond to you directly man-to-man, Christian brother-to-Christian brother, with God as our witness: I do really care about the true interpretation of Bible prophecy.

I'm pretty sure the other fellows care to.

We just aren't convinced you have it.
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#119521 - 04/05/07 08:29 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Quote:
Would you please ask a more specific question about the sanctuary furniture? What are you getting at when you ask about the altar in Revelation 6:10? Isn't it self-evident?


I have already asked several questions about the sanctuary furniture.
Quote:
I'm curious. What significance, if any, do you attribute to appearance of various pieces of sanctuary furniture?
Quote:
For example, the altar in 6:10. Which one is it, and why is it there?


If it's self-evident to you, it should be easily explained.

Do you note the various pieces of sanctuary furniture that appear in the book of Revelation? whic, if any, are missing? when and where do these pieces of furniture appear?

Why do they appear when they do?

Since, from the very first chapter of the book, Jesus appears in priestly robes, and the lampstands appear early on, it seems likely that the sanctuary, its furniture and its uses have some significance for the events in the book, don't you think?
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#119567 - 04/06/07 01:55 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
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Quote:
I ask you directly man-to-man, Christian brother-to-Christian brother, with God as our witness: Do you really care about the true interpretation of Bible prophecy?


Apparently not. I do not believe your way so I ... along with the rest of Adventism must not care. You must be the only one left Ron. Maybe YOU should become a professor at Andrews so you can set the rest of us straight.
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#119632 - 04/06/07 12:35 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, my inclination would be to regard the altar in Revelation 6:10 as the same altar mentioned in Revelation 8:3--the Golden Altar of Incense. In Rev. 8:3, 4 we are told that the "Angel" offers up the prayers of the saints with the incense, and both "ascended before God from the angel’s hand." (NKJV) In Revelation 6:10 we are given a figurative representation of the cry of the martyrs of past ages, asking God to avenge them by executing judgment upon the wicked. This is also a kind of prayer. The figurative cry to God of saints who are dead is metaphoric, like when God said to Cain that the blood of his brother Abel "cries out to Me from the ground." (Genesis 4:10; NKJV)

I don't know if you saw my comment yesterday about this. But let me repeat it here (with some expansion):

Some people (such as writer Clifford Goldstein) have questioned how the angel with the censer in Revelation 8:3 could represent Christ in His second apartment ministry, because the golden altar of incense is generally regarded as being located in the first apartment of the sanctuary. But this altar was involved in the Day of Atonement service. It was said to be "before the ark" (Ex. 40:5) when it was first set up. It was the closest article of furniture to the Ark, and was only separated from it when the curtain was afterward placed between it and the Ark.

Hebrews 9:3, 4 explicitly places the altar of incense in the Most Holy Place with the Ark: "Behind the second veil there was a tabernacle which is called the Holy of Holies, having a golden altar of incense and the ark of the covenant covered on all sides with gold, in which was a golden jar holding the manna, and Aaron's rod which budded, and the tables of the covenant;" (NASB)

We assume that the author of Hebrews, who displays such detailed knowledge of the sanctuary and its services, knew where the Altar was located. So why does this text say the Altar of Incense is with the Ark in the Holy of Holies, when in the past it was located in the first apartment?

Perhaps this reflects a change, indicating that the dividing curtain was removed in the heavenly sanctuary after the Sacrifice of Christ on Calvary. Compare Matthew 27:50, 51 (which talks about the dividing veil being ripped in two when Christ died) with Hebrews 8:5 (which tells us that the earthly sanctuary is a reflection of the heavenly sanctuary). It would seem necessary for the dividing veil to be removed at some point, since in 1844 the focus of Heaven's attention moved to the second apartment. The curtain would have to be removed so that everyone could see what was going on. With the curtain removed, the Altar was again seen to be "with" the Ark--the closest article of furniture to it.

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#119669 - 04/06/07 03:45 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Quote:
my inclination would be to regard the altar in Revelation 6:10 as the same altar mentioned in Revelation 8:3--the Golden Altar of Incense.


Since you mentioned the two altars, I looked up the texts.


Rev 6:9When he opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of those who had been slain because of the word of God and the testimony they had maintained. 10They called out in a loud voice, "How long, Sovereign Lord, holy and true, until you judge the inhabitants of the earth and avenge our blood?"

Rev 8:3 Another angel, who had a golden censer, came and stood at the altar. He was given much incense to offer, with the prayers of all the saints, on the golden altar before the throne. 4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints, went up before God from the angel's hand.

What struck me was the differences in the two.

The first altar:
gold not mentioned
censer not mentioned
incense not mentioned
not specified as 'before the throne'
"having been slain" mentioned
blood mentioned at the base.

The second altar:
Golden altar
censer with incense
'before the throne'
prayers of saints mentioned

I take your point about the blood 'crying from the ground,' but that speaks to me of the blood poured out at the foot of the altar of sacrifice, a brazen, not golden altar.

It seems to me that the altar in 6:9 is more likely to be the brazen altar.

And, I noticed something a little odd.

In 4:6 "golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints."

But in 8:4 "4The smoke of the incense, together with the prayers of the saints,"

In 4:6 incense = prayers of the saints, while in
8:4 incense + prayers of the saints.

An interesting change.
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“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119774 - 04/07/07 10:20 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, true, there are some differences, but none that exclude the possibility that the altar in Rev. 6:9 and the alter in Rev. 8:3 are the same altar. We do have prayers of the saints ascending to God from the hand of the Angel in Rev. 8:3, and we have the cry of the "souls under the altar" arising to God in Rev. 6:10.

The mention in Rev. 6:9 does not mention gold, but most of us do not always specify gold when we refer to the altar of incense, either. Just because the text does not say it was a golden altar, does not mean it was brass. No metal is specified.

But the prayers of the saints ascend with incense from the altar of incense, as stated in Rev. 8:4. This means the prayers of the saints are not the incense, but are WITH the incense. As I understand it, the incense represents the righteousness of Christ that must be mixed with the prayers of the saints to make them presentable to God. According to Ephesians 5:2 the incense (or "sweet-smelling savour") comes from the sacrifice of Christ:

"And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour."

Actually, no blood is depicted with the altar in Rev. 6:9-11. The only mention is when the souls under the altar cry out to have their blood avenged. This is a common Biblical metaphor for victims who were murdered. This does not say any blood is there at the altar. Similarly there is no mention of blood assoiated with the altar of Rev. 8:3. In contrast, there WAS blood associated with the brass altar, since the brass altar was annointed with blood and then blood was poured out at its base. I would suggest this is also a reason to conclude that the altar of Rev. 6:9 is not the brass altar.

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#119780 - 04/07/07 11:23 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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When the same source (John) describes the altars so very differently, it's reasonable to conclude they are different altars.

Note my list again

The first altar:
gold not mentioned
censer not mentioned
incense not mentioned
not specified as 'before the throne'
"having been slain" mentioned
blood mentioned at the base.

NOTHING about incense, gold, or location 'before the throne' is mentioned in connection with this altar. On the other hand, the entire setting is one of sacrifice, including the mention of having been slain, and blood mentioned at the base.

Your demur that 'no blood is depicted' is interesting. The saints are 'under' the altar. The NASB, which most scholars consider the closest word-for-word translation, lists two OT cross-references for the word 'under.' Ex 29:12 and Lev. 4:7, both of which refer to the blood being poured out at the base of the altar.

So these saints who have sacrificed their lives are in the position of the poured out blood, and then, so the reader can't miss the parallel, they mention their blood.

By contrast, John specifies that the second altar is the 'golden altar,' that it is 'before the throne,' and a figure with a 'censer' filled with 'incense' stands there. Nothing about death, blood, or sacrifice is mentioned at that second altar. The contrast between the two altars is just about total, therefore two conclusions seem nearly unavoidable.

1. The altar in ch. 8 is the altar of incense, and
2. the other one wasn't, the description, setting, and action at the two altars being so different.

If John wanted us to understand that the two altars were the same, he could easily have done so, by simply specifying the altar in 6:10 as 'golden.' Instead, he describes that altar in terms associated with sacrifice and blood, even having the saints located 'under' or 'at the base' of the altar. NOTHING happens at the base, or under the altar of incense; all the action is on or above.

The preponderance of the evidence indicates that the altar in 6:9, 10 is the brazen altar, the altar of sacrifice.



The second altar:
Golden altar
censer with incense
'before the throne'
prayers of saints mentioned




_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#119999 - 04/08/07 03:19 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, the blood in the sanctuary cannot be the blood of saints, for the saints are never sacrifices for sin. Only Jesus (or the animals that typified Jesus) can provide the blood for sacrifice in the sanctuary.

Rev. 6:10 says that the "souls" of the martyrs are under the altar, and cry out to God. Blood is not the same thing as souls. True, God told Cain that the blood of his brother Abel cried out to him from the ground; but God did not say Abel's soul was crying out to him from the ground.

Just to be clear, when you say "first" and "second" altar, what do you mean? Are you referring to the brass altar which you come to first, as the first altar? Or are you referring to the altar in Rev. 6:10 as the first altar?

We have already discussed the list of similarities you see between the altars in Rev. 6:10 and 8:3, and I have given my reasons why I do not believe they are significant, and why I see them as being the same altar. No need to go over it again, unless you have something new to add.

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#120002 - 04/08/07 04:03 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Posts: 3837


So the altar in 6:9 is somewhere other than the sanctuary?


Quote:
We have already discussed the list of similarities you see between the altars in Rev. 6:10 and 8:3, and I have given my reasons why I do not believe they are significant, and why I see them as being the same altar.


Aside from the designation of 'altar' these two altars have no 'similarities.; You also state that

Quote:
the blood in the sanctuary cannot be the blood of saints


So on the one hand, you're telling us the two altars with nothing in common are the same altar, the altar of incense. But this altar cannot be in the sanctuary, you tell us. I mean, the saints that have been slain are there, at the base of the altar, precisely in the location where the blood of sacrifices had been poured out--if it were the brazen altar-- and they mention their blood. Sounds very much to me like a symbol of the brazen altar.

But you say no. So tell us, since it cannot be in the sanctuary, where is it?


However, you say it cannot be. So, if this altar where the saints mention their blood cannot be in the sanctuary, where is it?
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#120003 - 04/08/07 04:06 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


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Separate question. In your scheme of things, does the investigative judgment still take place during the antitypical day of atonement?
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#120085 - 04/09/07 09:45 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


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EDD, you said: "But this altar cannot be in the sanctuary, you tell us."

I don't understand why you say this. I have consistently stated that both altars (the one mentioned in Rev. 6:10 and the one in Rev. 8:3) are one and the same, and is located in the Most Holy Place, the second apartment of the sanctuary, right along with the Ark of the Covenant. It used to be in the first apartment, but Hebrews 9:4 tells us it is now considered to be in the second apartment. So of course the Altar of Incense is in the sanctuary.

The Altar of Sacrifice (or Burnt Offerings) was with the laver, in the outer court, and thus not in the sanctuary proper, assuming that the first apartment and second apartment make up the sanctuary proper. There was a wall of white linen that enclosed the outer court with the two apartments of the sanctuary, but only the first and second apartments were roofed over in the form of a tent or tabernacle. It is the first apartment of the sanctuary that is associated with Christ's ministry prior to the judgment, and the second apartment of the sanctuary is associated with Christ's Judgment ministry during the Day of Atonement. Jesus passed from the first apartment to the second apartment in 1844.

I feel a desire to digress for a moment, and note that the white linen wall that surrounds the sanctuary and outer court, show us in symbol that when the sinner comes to Christ, he is immediately surrounded with the righteousness of Christ, even before he has done anything else other than start on his way to God. It is like in the parable of the Prodigal Son; when the Father sees his wayward son coming from afar, he runs out to meet him, and before his son can even give his prepared speech, the father immediately has a fine robe thrown around him. So God, when He sees us coming to Him, even while a great way off, He runs out to meet us and surrounds us with His imputed righteousness. This is the lesson of the white linen wall of the outer court.

Then in the outer court, the sinner confesses his sins and claims the sacrifice of Christ on His behalf. This is symbolized by the Altar of Sacrifice or Burnt Offering. After this, the penitent next comes to the laver, which represents baptism and the "washing of regeneration" where the penitent is converted and begins on the walk of daily sanctification.

After that, then he passes on into the first apartment, also called the Holy Place. Here we find the table of shewbread, symbolizing the truth that we must feed upon the Word of God, and we come to the candlestick, which represents the continual renewal and inspiration we receive from the Holy Spirit ministering in our lives. Then we come to the Altar of Incense, which represents the righteousness of Christ mixed with our own daily prayers to God. This was located in the first apartment, but now Hebrews 9:4 tells us it is in the second apartment, the "Holiest of all," with the Ark of the Covenant. Presumably the thick veil that used to separate the first from the seoond compartments has now been removed, and the Altar of Incense is seen to be the article of furniture closest to the Ark. Here we are prepared to enter the Judgment.

And yes, the Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment takes place during the Antitypical Day of Atonement. The Day of Atonement is the Investigative Judgment. Here is where the saints are given white robes. This is the final part of Christ's work as our High Priest. It leads to Justification being declared now and forever for all the saints, when Jesus shall declare: "He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still." (Rev. 22:11) Only after this is done, does Jesus change into His kingly garments, and prepare to return to this world to gather His saints to Him, and take them to heaven as He promised.

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#120092 - 04/09/07 10:49 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Ron Lambert Offline


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I keep referring to the altar mentioned in Rev. 6:10. Actually it is verse nine where the altar is mentioned. But everything in the fifth seal, Rev. 6:9-11, take place at this altar.

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#120096 - 04/09/07 11:46 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837


Quote:
I don't understand why you say this. I have consistently stated that both altars (the one mentioned in Rev. 6:10 and the one in Rev. 8:3) are one and the same,


But you also said:
Quote:
the blood in the sanctuary cannot be the blood of saints, for the saints are never sacrifices for sin


And yet the saints at the altar in 6:9 speak of "our blood," which you say cannot be in the sanctuary.

Quote:
and is located in the Most Holy Place, the second apartment of the sanctuary, right along with the Ark of the Covenant. It used to be in the first apartment, but Hebrews 9:4 tells us it is now considered to be in the second apartment. So of course the Altar of Incense is in the sanctuary.


Hebrews is a different book by a different author, and therefore it's very bad practice to use it to interpret Revelation.


If the Investigative judgment takes place in the antitypical day of atonement, AND it takes place beginning with chapter 4 or earlier, why does not the ark of the covenant appear until the end of chapter 11?

All of the furniture that appears until ch. 11 is associated with the daily sacrifice; but the ark of the covenant is only associated with the day of atonement.

It seems logical that the day of atonement does not occur until chapter 11. Indeed, in the list of annual feasts, the day of atonement occurs AFTER the feast of the trumpets.

The trumpets sound from chs. 8-11, and then AFTER the trumpets, the ark of the covenant appears for the first time in the book.

It can be demonstrated that the yearly calendar of feasts is repeated, in order, in the book of Revelation.

Passover in chs. 1-3
multiple references to death and resurrection
Pentecost 4-5
24 elders, the firstfruits of the resurrection
Trumpets 8-11
Trumpets
Day of Atonement 11:18-14:10
Ark of Covenant
Tabernacles 21-22
Tabernacle of God is with men. 21:3
feast of tabernacles not celebrated until after Israel in possession of the promised land. In Rev, feast of tabernacles not until after redeemed in New Earth.


Both the appearance of sanctuary furniture and the sequence of feasts in Revelation confirm that events connected with the day of atonement does not begin until the end of ch. 11.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#120137 - 04/09/07 06:30 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
EDD, you said: "Hebrews is a different book by a different author, and therefore it's very bad practice to use it to interpret Revelation."

I disagree. 2 Timothy 3:16, 17 tells us: "All scripture is given by inspiration of God, and is profitable for doctrine, for reproof, for correction, for instruction in righteousness: That the man of God may be perfect, thoroughly furnished unto all good works." Since the Bible comes from One Divine mind, the whole of Scripture may be viewed as a unified whole, and statements, terms, and symbols in one book most certainly can and will be defined elsewhere in the Bible with perfect reliability. This is one of the strongest evidences of the divine inspiration of the Bible, that there is a perfect consistency in how prophetic symbols, etc., are used in books written over a span of a thousand years, written by many different writers in different original languages.

The blood of saints never make atonement. Only Jesus' blood can make atonement. Only Jesus' blood is involved in the Heavenly sanctuary. The religion of Christ is opposed to human sacrifice.
You are jumping to conclusions about the blood--the souls under the altar merely ask when God will avenge their blood. They do not say their blood is pooled up there beside the altar.

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#120143 - 04/09/07 06:55 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
"Hebrews is a different book by a different author, and therefore it's very bad practice to use it to interpret Revelation."

I disagree.



You disagree that they are different books? Then why are the separate units?

Or

You disagree that they have different authors? So, do you think John wrote Hebrews? or that the author of Hebrews wrote Revelation.

Quote:
that there is a perfect consistency in how prophetic symbols, etc., are used in books written over a span of a thousand years, written by many different writers in different original languages.


No. There is not. Different books by different authors use symbols differently.

John speaks of being "born again," but Paul speaks of "putting on Christ."

Paul speaks of the church as a "body," but Peter speaks of a "temple built of living stones."

John uses many symbols in the same way as the Old Testament, because he is directly drawing on OT sources. However, Hebrews and Revelation are NOT drawing on each other.

In addition, your interpretation of Hebrews is mainly speculation, because the author of Hebrews uses hagios inconsistently. But that is the proper concern when we study Hebrews, not Revelation.

"Jumping around from one book to another," as my teacher, William Johnsson used to say, "is poor exegesis." Using that technique, we can put together any two verses which strike us as having something in common, without showing a referential link between them. So Hebrews, interesting as it is, is out of bounds here.

Quote:
The blood of saints never make atonement.


No one ever claimed it did.

None of that is responsive to the issue of the furniture and the feasts.

I draw your attention to this once again.

If the Investigative judgment takes place in the antitypical day of atonement, AND it takes place beginning with chapter 4 or earlier, why does not the ark of the covenant appear until the end of chapter 11?

All of the furniture that appears until ch. 11 is associated with the daily sacrifice; but the ark of the covenant is only associated with the day of atonement.

It seems logical that the day of atonement does not occur until chapter 11. Indeed, in the list of annual feasts, the day of atonement occurs AFTER the feast of the trumpets.

The trumpets sound from chs. 8-11, and then AFTER the trumpets, the ark of the covenant appears for the first time in the book.

It can be demonstrated that the yearly calendar of feasts is repeated, in order, in the book of Revelation.

Passover in chs. 1-3
multiple references to death and resurrection
Pentecost 4-5
24 elders, the firstfruits of the resurrection
Trumpets 8-11
Trumpets
Day of Atonement 11:18-14:10
Ark of Covenant
Tabernacles 21-22
Tabernacle of God is with men. 21:3
feast of tabernacles not celebrated until after Israel in possession of the promised land. In Rev, feast of tabernacles not until after redeemed in New Earth.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#120259 - 04/10/07 12:38 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
EDD, I gave a full explanation why the books of the Bible can and should be taken together. They were written by different people, but all inspired by the same divine mind. Why do you ask me why I take this position, when I already told you why?

You are trying to impose arbitrary requirements on the text when you claim that the Judgment/Day of Atonement cannot be seen until the Ark of the covenant is mentioned. There is no reason to expect that. When Revelation 5:11 tells us that "ten thousand times ten thousand, and thousands of thousands" of angels are in attendence--language that only appears elsewhere in the Bible in Daniel 7:10 when describing the Judgment--and when Revelation chapter 5:3-5 gives us clear juducial statements about no man being found worthy, and then the Lamb being found worthy, how can it be denied that a judgment is being described in this chapter? When the fifth seal in Revelation 6:11 tells us that it is then that the martyrs of past ages receive white robes, this is conclusive proof that the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment is then already on-going. You have to account for this, or you can have no further logical argument.

Your attempt to see the Hebrew annual calendar of feasts occurring in order in Revelation is an arbitary attempt to read something into the text that is not there. Attempting to read your own ideas into the text, and trying to force the text to fit your pre-conceived views, is the very antithesis of exegesis. Some would call what you are doing a perfect example of "isogesis."

The Bible is God's Word, not your word, or any man's word, and you should quit trying to impose your ideas on the text. You should make more effort to let the text declare the actual meaning God placed into the text.

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#120266 - 04/10/07 12:54 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
skyblue888 Offline


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 7452
Loc: Canada
"In the Revelation all the books of the Bible meet end." Acts of the Apostles, p.585.
_________________________
"The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

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#120278 - 04/10/07 01:50 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
"isogesis." (sic)


Ummmm . . . actually the word is 'eisegesis.'

Quote:
The Bible is God's Word, not your word, or any man's word, and you should quit trying to impose your ideas on the text. You should make more effort to let the text declare the actual meaning God placed into the text.

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#120279 - 04/10/07 01:54 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32150
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Ron ... What you need to know is that Dave does not believe that the Bible is the objective word of God.

Correct me if I am wrong David.


Edited by Redwood (04/10/07 01:57 PM)
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#120287 - 04/10/07 02:05 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
skyblue888 Offline


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 7452
Loc: Canada
Ron, long time no see! Are you claiming that the investigative judgment did not begin on the 22nd of October 1844 but at Christ's ascension? If that were the case, then the Advent Movement would be a hoax. Is that what you believe and teach? Thanks.


Edited by skyblue888 (04/10/07 02:05 PM)
_________________________
"The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

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#120288 - 04/10/07 02:07 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: skyblue888]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32150
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Sky ... I think we as Adventists have a lot more to offer than just 1844.
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#120292 - 04/10/07 02:16 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
skyblue888 Offline


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 7452
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Sky ... I think we as Adventists have a lot more to offer than just 1844.


I am not sure why you said that to me. :)

The 2300 day prophecy is the foundation and central pillar of the Advent movement! As a people, everything we have to offer stands or falls upon that foundation. "The merits of Christ are the foundation of the Christian's faith" (G.C.73) but "The scripture which above all others had been both the foundation and the central pillar of the advent faith was the declaration: 'Unto two thousand an three hundred days; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.'" The Great Controversy, p.409.


Edited by skyblue888 (04/10/07 02:17 PM)
_________________________
"The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

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#120293 - 04/10/07 02:22 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: skyblue888]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32150
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
everything we have to offer stands or falls upon that foundation.


I think a lot of our beliefs are not dependent upon this one belief.
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#120295 - 04/10/07 02:57 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
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Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Ron ... What you need to know is that Dave does not believe that the Bible is the objective word of God.

Correct me if I am wrong David.


Actually, that is another issue. The one I raised is that the Bible is hearsay, as to the student. The issue of being 'objective' is separate from that. What has been addressed on the referenced thread, is the question of whether or not there is objective truth. My response has been that there is, and that it is simply the facts of an object's existence, as opposed to a student's observation of the object, which may involve 'filters.'

Dave


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#120296 - 04/10/07 03:30 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
skyblue888 Offline


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 7452
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Quote:
everything we have to offer stands or falls upon that foundation.


I think a lot of our beliefs are not dependent upon this one belief.


hmmm What would it matter to teach the non-immortality of the soul or the Sabbath or the principles of health reform or even the merits of Christ if we let go of the foundation and central pillar of the Advent faith?
_________________________
"The merits of His sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." S.C.36.

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#120304 - 04/10/07 04:13 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: skyblue888]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
David Koot, thanks, you're right. The word I meant was eisegesis.

Skyblue88. I believe the basic, central doctrine of Seventh-day Adventism that the Pre-Advent, Investigative Judgment depicted in Daniel seven began on October 22, 1844. I also believe that is when the seven seals prophecies begin, since the seals of the book are opened in the Judgment depicted in Revelation chapter five. See my first post in this thread. (And I might note on the October 22, 1844 date, I think it is very interesting that God chose to wait for the Day of Atonement on the Hebrew calendar before begining the Judgment of the World. That seems to indicate that God still pays attention to the ancient Hebrew calendar of feasts and holidays. Should we?--At least those fall feast days that have not yet been fulfilled, such as the Feast of Tabernacles? I just think the question is worth raising.)

Redwood, other denominations can be found who teach some or most of our other doctrines. We got the Sabbath truth from Seventh-day Baptists. The one thing you must believe in order to be a Seventh-day Adventist, distinct from all other denominations, is the termination of Daniel 8:14 in the Day of Atonement and Daniel seven Pre-Advent Investigative Judgment of the world, beginning on October 22, 1844. If you reject this doctrine, you are not a Seventh-day Adventist in fact. Seventh-day Adventism stands or falls on the Sanctuary Doctrine.

David Koot, the Bible is less hearsay and more objective, the more you submit to the guidence and conviction of the Holy Spirit, who uses the Bible to speak to us.

If you would, take a look at 2 Peter 1:16-21:
Quote:
16For we have not followed cunningly devised fables, when we made known unto you the power and coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, but were eyewitnesses of his majesty.

17For he received from God the Father honour and glory, when there came such a voice to him from the excellent glory, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

18And this voice which came from heaven we heard, when we were with him in the holy mount.

19We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:

20Knowing this first, that no prophecy of the scripture is of any private interpretation.

21For the prophecy came not in old time by the will of man: but holy men of God spake as they were moved by the Holy Ghost.

Notice Peter referred to the tremendous experience he had when he was on the Mount of Transfiguration and saw Jesus transformed into glorious appearance, and talked with Moses and Elijah. This had to be one of the most spectaculor events humans have ever witnessed. But then notice what Peter then goes on to say: "We have also a more sure word of prophecy;" and he affirms that no prophecy of the Scripture came by the will of man, but all spoke as they were moved by the Holy Spirit. So the Bible is an even more sure witness than what we perceive with our own senses.


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#120310 - 04/10/07 04:56 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

the Bible is less hearsay and more objective



Those are two separate issues. The opposite of hearsay is direct observation. Direct observation can still be quite subjective.


Edited by David Koot (04/10/07 04:58 PM)

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#120312 - 04/10/07 05:21 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
David, since none of us were eyewitness to events that took place 2,000 years ago, we must go by the testimony of those who were eyewitnesses, and weigh their testimony according to established principles of determining credibility. We compare the testimony of different eyewitnesses. This is why the Lord has provided us with four versions of the gospel, plus narrative, counsels, and prophecies by dozens of prophets, chroniclers, and apostles over a thousand years, writing in three different original languages.

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#120322 - 04/10/07 06:38 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
Destablished principles of determining credibility.


Such as?

Quote:
We compare the testimony of different eyewitnesses.


How would you know if ANY of the 'eyewitness' accounts are accurate? Comparing them with each other won't do any good if they share common defects.


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#120329 - 04/10/07 07:29 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837



Quote:
Why do you ask me why I take this position, when I already told you why?


I didn't ask you why. I told you it was bad form. Using your method, then, since 'oil' is the symbol of the Holy Spirit, the widow in 2 Kings 4 was selling the Holy Spirit to pay off her debts. And when Moses parted the waters, he was parting peoples, multitudes, nations and languages.

Your 'method' is nothing more than eisegesis by free association. You have decided that Rev 4 has something to do with judgment, and read that in.

Now, you claim the Hebrew feasts are not present.

Would you also claim the Hebrew sanctuary and its furniture are not present? Would you claim that the appearance of the furniture was just accidental?

Which of the following do you claim 'are not there'?
Quote:
Passover in chs. 1-3
multiple references to death and resurrection
Pentecost 4-5
24 elders, the firstfruits of the resurrection
Trumpets 8-11
Trumpets
Day of Atonement 11:18-14:10
Ark of Covenant
Tabernacles 21-22
Tabernacle of God is with men. 21:3
feast of tabernacles not celebrated until after Israel in possession of the promised land. In Rev, feast of tabernacles not until after redeemed in New Earth.


Do you claim the trumpets are not in 8-11?
Do you claim the ark of the covenant appears other than in 11:18?

Do you claim that 21:3 does not mention the tabernacle?

If they are present, is their order-- exactly in the order of the feasts-- is that accidental?

In fact, what I've done is precisely exegetical. Looking into the text and finding what is there, and asking what pattern it represents, if any.

You start with an assumption, and arrange--and ignore contrary evidence-- to support your position.

I'm quite aware that the Bible is not my word. Nor is it yours. But you misunderstand Ellen White's position on inspiration. She says "the words of men are the Word of God." She also says that "The Bible is written by inspired men, but it is not God's mode of thought and expression. It is that of humanity. God, as a writer, is not represented. Men will often say such an expression is not like God. But God has not put Himself in words, in logic, in rhetoric, on trial in the Bible. The writers of the Bible were God's penmen, not His pen."

The writers did not take dictation.

"It is not the words of the Bible that are inspired, but the men that were inspired. Inspiration acts not on the man's words or his expressions but on the man himself, who, under the influence of the Holy Ghost, is imbued with thoughts. But the words receive the impress of the individual mind. The divine mind is diffused. The divine mind and will is combined with the human mind and will; thus the utterances of the man are the word of God."

You have eliminated the human element, and thus distorted the SCriptures.

There is a power which causes people to write the words of another, but we call that 'automatic writing' and it is not the way God works.
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#120446 - 04/11/07 01:14 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: there buster]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
EDD, I think I have been very patient, and tried to correct each less than reasonable point you have put forward, but now you have passed way beyond the bounds of being in any sense reasonable. I am not willing to follow your thinking any further to such unreasonable extremes. You are wasting my time.

David, in every courtroom in America, we have established procedures for weighing the credibility of witnesses. We convict defendants of felonies or exonerate them, and in some states sentence certain defendants to death, on the basis of evaluating witnesses and their testimony.

Remember what Jesus said to "doubting" Thomas: "Jesus saith unto him, Thomas, because thou hast seen me, thou hast believed: blessed are they that have not seen, and yet have believed." (John 20:29.)

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#120458 - 04/11/07 02:08 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman


Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

David, in every courtroom in America, we have established procedures for weighing the credibility of witnesses. We convict defendants of felonies or exonerate them, and in some states sentence certain defendants to death, on the basis of evaluating witnesses and their testimony.


Aha! You appear to be proposing the idea of applying courtroom evidentiary standards to the study of the Word!!!!! Should we add Wharton on Evidence to our library of Bible study tools?????

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#120459 - 04/11/07 02:08 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman


Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert

David, in every courtroom in America, we have established procedures for weighing the credibility of witnesses. We convict defendants of felonies or exonerate them, and in some states sentence certain defendants to death, on the basis of evaluating witnesses and their testimony.


Aha! You appear to be proposing the idea of applying courtroom evidentiary standards to the study of the Word!!!!! Should we add Wharton on Evidence to our library of Bible study tools?????

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#120497 - 04/11/07 07:31 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
Aha! You appear to be proposing the idea of applying courtroom evidentiary standards to the study of the Word!!!!! Should we add Wharton on Evidence to our library of Bible study tools?????


He certainly isn't proposing that we actually study the Bible. In that case, why not anything?
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#120540 - 04/11/07 11:38 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
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Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
EDD, I think I have been very patient, and tried to correct each less than reasonable point you have put forward, but now you have passed way beyond the bounds of being in any sense reasonable. I am not willing to follow your thinking any further to such unreasonable extremes. You are wasting my time.


Well, I see I am not alone. First I was on the receiving end, and now Ed. Hmmmm. I must tell you, Ron, that as I have followed Ed's posts, he has been very reasonable, and IMO very patient. For you to characterize his position as unreasonable is rather extraordinary.

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#120563 - 04/12/07 08:58 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32150
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
You are wasting my time.


Ron ... Like I said at the beginning ... it was evident that you have not wanted to have an open discussion. Rather , you wanted to have your opinions validated. And all who happen to disagree with you are not going to be listened to. And therefore ... to you it is a waste of your time.

Can't you agree also that it would be a waste of an Andrews professor's time to read all of your opinions. So why would you expect them to do so?
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#120594 - 04/12/07 12:25 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
Now look, you guys. EDD consistently misreprents my position, makes assertions that do not logically follow from his premises, and ignores every attempt I make to set him straight. If you think EDD is reasonable, then that tells me your are not careful readers.

Redwood, I expect the Andrews professors to recognize the quality of my scholarship, and realize that they do have to answer me. I have proven that their positions are mistaken, and proven that my positions are right. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong from the Bible. I challenge anyone to defend the traditional interpretations of Rev. 4-5, the seven seals, the seven trumpets, and Daniel 12, by answering the devasting refutations of them I have given.

This is not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of honesty and competent scholarship. It is a matter of what God's Word truly says.

As for having an open discussion, in what way have I done anything to discourage that? Who of you has offered any Biblical arguements against the positions I have taken? Those few half-baked attempts at arguments anyone has offered, I have responded to and answered fully, sometimes over and over again.

The reason why I have not changed my position is because I am right, and have proven so. If you think I am at fault for being so sure of my position, then let me suggest that you need to offer better arguments. It might help if you paid closer attention to what I actually have said; if you followed the Biblical arguments I have presented with close, thoughtful, open-minded scrutiny. I would welcome comment and crticism that is well thought out, and honestly and fairly deals with what I have actually written.

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#120633 - 04/12/07 03:57 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman


Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Originally Posted By: Ron Lambert
Who of you has offered any Biblical arguements against the positions I have taken?


I started to, then Ed did.

Quote:
Those few half-baked attempts at arguments anyone has offered, I have responded to and answered fully, sometimes over and over again.


Apparently you see it that way. But, I am willing to address the positions you have presented. However, in order to avoid a repeat of what has happened here, it would need to be on condition. Rules of engagement need to be set and agreed upon--and followed. I am willing to discuss it, but do need a civil forum for exchange of ideas, characterized by courtesy and respect.

Quote:
The reason why I have not changed my position is because I am right, and have proven so.


Wow! Am I hearing from Napoleon Dynamite redux here?

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#120637 - 04/12/07 04:17 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: David Koot]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
I have been entirely civil with you, David. You are uncivil when you make false characterizations of my demeanor. That is not valid argument, and I will not be distracted by it. If you have actual Biblical arguments to make, then make them.

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#120645 - 04/12/07 05:15 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32150
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
Redwood, I expect the Andrews professors to recognize the quality of my scholarship, and realize that they do have to answer me. I have proven that their positions are mistaken, and proven that my positions are right. I challenge anyone to prove me wrong from the Bible.

These words speak for themselves. And you will not find many willing to talk to someone with this kind of attitude. It is evident that you would not listen because you are right and everyone else is wrong.

Quote:
This is not a matter of opinion. This is a matter of honesty and competent scholarship. It is a matter of what God's Word truly says.


You just prove my point.

Quote:
The reason why I have not changed my position is because I am right, and have proven so.


I find NO such evidence. What I find is that you are blind to your own self opinion.

And finally .... this .....

Quote:
I have been entirely civil with you, David. You are uncivil when you make false characterizations of my demeanor.


David has been VERY restrained and civil with you.

Is it "civil" for you to say that everyone is wrong and dishonest except you and that you are the only scholarly one?
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#120697 - 04/13/07 09:39 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Woody]
Ron Lambert Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 2332
Loc: Troy, Michigan USA
I am right about the Sabbath and the state of the dead, as well, and can prove it from the Bible beyond any reasonable dispute. Being civil does not mean you have to give the trumpet an uncertain sound. Redwood, perhaps you are used to the kind of discourse common in academia, where it is fashionable to be unsure of everything, and reluctant to make any positive statements until enough consensus has been built up. This is foolishness, and does not honor God nor does it really show respect for our fellow man. What truly shows respect for our fellow man is to proclaim the truth of Scripture plainly.

If you can counter any of the Biblical arguments I have presented in support of the interpretations I have given of Revelation 4-5 and the seven seals, then please present them. I will ignore as frivolous any comments about anything else.

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#120707 - 04/13/07 10:25 AM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman


Registered: 03/12/06
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Looking at the title of your thread, it seems to be stating a position. Perhaps one good way to address the issues would be to start a new thread which is more neutral, addressing some fundamental issues which appear in Revelation. Perhaps I will go ahead and start such a thread.

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#121278 - 04/16/07 06:44 PM Re: Judgment in Rev 4-5 & Application of 7 Seals after 1844 [Re: Ron Lambert]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Once again I inquire:

Do you claim the trumpets are not in 8-11?
Do you claim the ark of the covenant appears other than in 11:18?

Do you claim that 21:3 does not mention the tabernacle?

If they are present, is their order-- exactly in the order of the feasts-- is that accidental?
_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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