So does anyone sense from a reading of the Coffee topic that EGW tends to throw the word "sin" around a bit loosely?


"All wrongdoing is sin, and there is sin that does not lead to death." 1 John 5:17.

Tom

Yeap .... she called just about everything a "sin". But I think there was a method to her madness. It just points out that we all sin and therefore need the Robe of Righteousness to COVER our sins. We will always have sin but we are assured that each and everyone of them will be "covered". Therefore they do not lead to death .... we are assured of LIFE in Him.

I've heard or read some saying that her writings were the product of epileptic seizures. But mad? A mad prophet? That's a new one! I wonder how much better "Desire of Ages", "Education", "Ministry of Healing", "Steps to Christ" & other works would have been if she had been sane!

I'd like to see a sane Redwood produce anything to compare with any of her smallest books that was a product of madness.


Sooooooo, because Jesus puts His Robe of Righteousness on me to cover me, I can keep on doing something that I know to be wrong since "we are assured of LIFE in Him" anyway?

Gerry

Why, Why, do people keep trying to put these words into others mouths? Gerry, you are much to intelligent and thoughtful to fall into the trap of useing those words just to rebut someone. Redwood insinuates in no way that sentiment.

:GAH

Those here who claim that they have completely stopped sinning might want to check their sugar and milk consumption, cooking skills and sleeping habits.

How about it, Redwood? Who is right here? Gerry or CoAspen?

Err, and 'method to her madness' is a well known figure of speech suggesting that something that others see as crazy is actually sane, not any sort of allegation of madness.

You are right Bravus it was a compliment to EGW but then Gerry and David know that also. They love twisting my words. I don't have a problem with it. They really need to find something to fight about. And I am a good target. But I don't mind. They know what I believe but they keep having to say .... well does that mean I can go on doing what I know is wrong. Yes ... You can and WILL continue to go on sinning. But I do not know of ANY christian who will not have "good works" in his life. As a Christian we will all do "good works". But we WILL fail and we WILL have forgiveness.

And don't forget the sin of forgetfulness, but be sure not to sin off in the other direction by committing the sin of excessive cogitation, And if anyone is getting sick and tired of all this you need to remember that she also said being sick was a sin and I assume being tired would be a sign of not enough sleep which is a sin and my favorite, which only a blind man can be found faultless, the sin of "seeing"....

Guilty of all of the above, I guess... :duno



Tom

It may seem so at first reading but if we consider everything she and the Bible say about sin, we may come to a different conclusion.

How about Ellen White's startling, almost unbelievable statement: "It is a sin to be sick..."?

But let's read the whole statement in context: "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression. Many are suffering in consequence of the transgression of their parents. They cannot be censured for their parents' sin; but it is nevertheless their duty to ascertain wherein their parents violated the laws of their being, which has entailed upon their offspring so miserable an inheritance; and wherein their parents' habits were wrong, they should change their course, and place themselves by correct habits in a better relation to health." Counsels On Health, p. 37.

Then also consider a few more statements that I believe help us understand why she said what she said above:

"Knowledge must be gained in regard to how to eat and drink and dress so as to preserve health. Sickness is the result of violating nature's law. Our first duty, one which we owe to God, to ourselves, and to our fellow men, is to obey the laws of God. These include the laws of health." CH 24, 25.

"A continual transgression of nature's laws is a continual transgression of the law of God...When men take any course which needlessly expends their vitality or beclouds their intellect, they sin against God..." CH 20

"Every needless transgression of the laws which God has established in our being is virtually a violation of the law of God, and is as great a sin in the sight of Heaven as to break the Ten Commandments. Ignorance upon this important subject is sin... All should have an intelligent knowledge of the human frame, that they may keep their bodies in the condition necessary to do the work of the Lord." CH 40, 41

Ellen White is using "sin" in the Biblical sense of being a failure to live up to God's ideal or God's plan for us. God commanded, "You shall not murder." We can slowly murder ourselves by our bad habits such as eating wrongly and not exercising.

A non-SDA theologian, Wayne Grudem, defined sin as "any failure to conform to the moral law of God in act, attitude, or nature." (Systematic Theology, p. 490.) If God's ideal or plan is for us to be healthy, any time we do things that keep us from being healthy, it is a sin. For instance, I'm a diabetic today partly because of my heredity (grandpa died of it) but also because I foolishly (and sinfully) did things I shouldn't have done and didn't do things I ought to have done. I know now that it was a sin on my part. I also used to drink coffee because at my work I felt I had to do it in order to stay awake all night. I stopped drinking it about a year ago and as a result my blood pressure is normal again.

Do you have any other examples of where it appears to you that Ellen White used the word sin a bit loosely?

John,

My post just before yours lists some of the more entertaining examples which I had already identified in the coffee topic.

As for the "It's a sin to be sick" statement, context doesn't help very much, other than to dig the hole deeper. And to me it is in direct contradiction to the words of Jesus in John 9 to his disciples' direct question about whose sin caused the man to be blind. Jesus said, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned." Very often, sickness and tragedy happen to very innocent people. Yes, it is the result of living in a flawed and sinful world, but to state it the way it is and the way many sincere Adventists hammer it home, because EGW said it, it is unjustly assigning blame and guilt for the sin of the victims of sin.

Calling anything and everything sin, dilutes the concept to the point of meaninglessness.

Tom

All sickness is the result of someone's transgression of the laws of health. But that doesn't mean all sickness is because of the sin of the sick person. Ellen White's statements would not include those people who are born with defects or with some illness such as AIDS. Nor, of course, would they apply to people who get AIDS from a blood transfusion. I really don't think that Ellen White would disagree with what you say about sickness sometimes happening to innocent people. There are always exceptions to the general rule, but I think that we would all agree that most cases of sickness occur when people neglect to do something or else do something they shouldn't. That's certainly the case, for instance, with diabetes and lung cancer, high blood pressure, heart disease, etc. It's obvious that Ellen White's references to sickness as being sin have to do with people who do not try to find out how to be healthy or who don't do what they know results in good health. I'm guilty of this myself. Also, it's of interest to note that Ellen White was often sick. But she learned from her errors and didn't continue bad health practices once she became aware of them.

Of course both the Bible and Ellen White emphasize how essential it is to show love and sympathy and to give help to everyone who is sick irrespective of the cause of the illness.

Soooooo we are all sinning everytime we get a cold?

But the point being, that is not what she said or how she said it or how most every EGW apologist preaches her words as being the word of God. Here and elswhere, including in most of the oddball sin references I have already alluded to, EGW makes unqualified, unequivocal, dogmatic statements that such and such is sin, the transgression of God's moral law. Her statement even in context is "It is a sin to be sick, for all sickness is the result of transgression."

I would like to hear your explanation of the sin of "seeing", or some of the other priceless stones used to pelt the life out of sinners.

Tom

C'mon Tom. Are we eagerly siezing abstract examples in order to disregard what she had to say? Hope not..


This is olger signing off.

Olger ... it is the ones that throw the Ellen White books at people who are being abstract. If the Ellen White supporters would just admit that she makes mistakes then we could have clarity. But to make her infallible means that you have to excuse away the words that Tom pointed out. You have to be very inconsistant in contorting how to read and interpret her.

Just go ahead and admit it. Ellen White is not ALWAYS to be believed. She has some good that we can benefit from. But she also has some that we can toss ...

You know what Ellen White's response was to people who came to her with objections on some things such as you bring up here? She would say to them, "Use common sense." Tom, you have to take into account everything she's said on a subject, just like you do the Bible. Do you know how many people quote a verse here and there and then try to show from them that the Bible contradicts itself or that the Bible is full of lies? It happens all the time. People do the same with Ellen White's writings. Why? For the same reason they do it with the Bible.

If you read the context of the sentence about its being a sin to be sick, you will see that she is not saying it is necessarily every individual sick-person who is sinning, but that sickness itself is the result of someone's sin. She says we have an obligation to learn how to avoid sickness. That sounds very reasonable to me. Do you know how many people don't try to find out how to avoid sickness but instead keep getting the same illness over and over again? That is what she is talking about.

There are two ways we commonly use "sin" as a noun. When we actively do what we know is wrong, showing we doubt God by violating His will, we call that sin. But we also live in a sinful world, which is so contaminated by unbelief, rebellion, and all its consequences, that we can call anything in this world sin.

I don't think anyone here believes that Ellen White was/is infallible. And of course she made mistakes. The same can be said about the Bible and about the prophets and apostles. How often the Israelites said the same about Moses! How often the Corinthians said the same-- and worse-- about Paul!

But the problem is that we have a tendency to try to excuse ourselves and avoid obeying, by saying the prophet is not correct about something simply because it disagrees with our ideas or with what we want to do. Instead of studying to find out how true something is, we are studying to find out how wrong something is. For instance, when it comes to Ellen White's statement about its being a sin to be sick, instead of reading it in context and seeing that she is talking about its being someone's sin, we are jumping to the conclusion that she is saying every sick person is sick because of their own sins. And so we conclude prematurely Ellen White was wrong before we even understand what she was really saying.

There are some who will excuse each and every thing that Ellen White says by searching to find some twisted way of interpreting what she says. It will not be a consistant way of reading her though. Each time they will find a new way to excuse what she says. Context has nothing to do with it. What it is ... is a way to force her ideas on everyone at all costs. It is blind acceptance of her. Instead of searching scriptures and finding TRUTH. They search and find ways to CONFIRM her teachings.

But hey that is fine.It is their way. The only problem here is that they condemn all those who do not believe her way. The quote below is evidence of this ....



They do the same with THEIR ideas.

That's true, we have to be careful about judging people for their sins, because we simply don't know people's hearts. We can only go by what people do and say, and that means we don't know a lot about the circumstances under which people live and struggle. Our whole world is contaminated with sin and disease, and not everyone who is affected is directly responsible. We also do well to remember that as "the god of this world," Satan is able to cause even great men of faith like Job a lot of sickness and suffering.

I think you would agree that context is always important when it comes to trying to understand what Ellen White or anyone else writes. I am sure you would agree that it's true of the Bible. In the issue before us, for instance, the context shows that Ellen White was not saying every sick person is sick because of his own personal sin.

I don't think anyone is trying to force Ellen White's ideas on others. I believe in people being free to make those kinds of choices and so did Ellen White. We are all free here to state our understanding. You are free to tell us yours. Remember, we are talking about discussing what she said, and we are doing this in the context of a website where people-- all sides of an issue or question-- are free to express themselves and also free to come and go just as they like.

Do you think it's Okay to search and find ways to CONFIRM the Bible? I certainly do.

When it comes to Christ and His word, I'm not an objective bystander or observer. I'm a partisan and I know you are too.

Of course Ellen G. White was not infallible. God did not prevent her from ever saying or writing anything wrong--that would have violated her free will. But He did give her messages to communicate to the church. And even beyond that, we ought to respect her opinions, since she was a sister of real experience, who talked to Jesus and to angels face-to-face. Even her "personal opinion" should be given great weight.

But her writings must never take the place of the Bible. All we believe about faith and doctrine, Bible prophecy, etc., must be based on the Bible alone. Her faith was based on the Bible alone. If we base our position on anything on Ellen White's writings alone, we are misusing them. If we cannot prove our position on any topic from the Bible alone, then we are not qualified to participaate in the debate. If we truly respect her prophetic office, then we should first of all do what she says, and base our beliefs on the Bible alone. She described herself as "a lesser light" to bring us back to "the greater light" of the Bible.

I really like your statement: "If we base our position on anything on Ellen White's writings alone, we are misusing them." I agree with everything you said here, but I feel it's necessary to add that some people may misunderstand a discussion where we are trying to understand what Ellen White taught or said. Under those circumstances, we are not trying to show what the Bible says. We are trying first of all to establish what Ellen White said, and then we try to establish whether there is agreement between what she said and what the Bible says. But often it is important just to know what it was that she taught on a particular subject.

Please give some examples of where her beliefs were wrong.

Redwood, that sure brought this conversation to screeching halt!! (Just looked at the time tags for the last 10 posts)

Tom

The context of this topic came about with certain persons' use of EGW quotes that drinking coffee is a sin. Go back and read through that topic and ask yourself which common use of "sin" was intended by those posters?

Tom

The greatest want of the world is the want of men-- men who will not be bought or sold, men who in their inmost souls are true and honest, men who do not fear to call sin by its right name, men whose conscience is as true to duty as the needle to the pole, men who will stand for the right though the heavens fall.

...and how do you specifically apply this to this topic in a practical and realistic way?

Or to put it more plainly - And your point is?

So tell me, is this in reply to this:



???

Graeme

No. Relative to calling sin by it's right name.

The reason it is the greatest want is because men such as this (see above quote) are in short supply (to our shame, Brethren).


oG

Unfortunely, it is embedded into our coulture, and when those of us call sin by it's right name, we get chastised and get harrassed by "the brothern"....

The irony of this statement is just amazing....

Reviewing various online discussions can provide some examples. When someone points out that EGW warned against the use of coffee, s/he is often subject to ridicule. Even when such persons refer to medical/health evidence, they are ridiculed. Another example: when someone points out the importance of following the counsels of the Spirit of Prophecy, s/he if often subjected to ridicule. Good examples of this may be found in referring to her statements against the wearing of jewelry, participating in worldly amusements, carelessness about keeping the Sabbath, competitive sports, dancing, etc. Even the mention of these items will often subject a person to ridicule. One may easily find examples of that by reviewing the pages of online discussions. It appears that there are 'Politically Correct' mores which individuals are expected to abide by. Transgression of those mores will result in ridicule and social isolation, as occurs in many cultural groups.

I confess .... I was the one that quoted Ellen White warning against the use of Coffee and calling it sin. However ... I did not experience any ridicule. So ... I do not know where this is coming from. I feel it is a false accusation against Club Adventist members.

Hi Neil. It wasn't always embedded in our culture, although I agree that it is currently. As near as I can tell, the phenomenon of passive men began in the early 60's. It was fortified in 1971 with the Archie Bunker syndrome, the passive, easy chair male who was a buffoon in most of life's situations.

In an attempt to swim against the tide, Focus on the Family created the person of Mr. Whitaker to help remind our sick culture what true manhood looks like. Hollywood has done an admirable job of tearing down the house in this area alone.

Through a woman who is now dead (egw), the Lord communicated that there would be a great attack on true manhood.

In contemporary society, Laura Schlessinger and many others have raised the cry as well. It must begin with us men. We cannot blame society, culture, women, parents, or politics any longer.

oG

Honestly, I can't see how this woman can give advice on marriage and family when she is so very anti-men. I can't listen to her without getting angry.

Amelia ... That is why Olger likes her. Olger puts men in their place. At least he/she seems to attempt to do that to me.!!

Hi Amelia. Olger here.

I am puzzled at your statement that Laura "is anti-men". I could provide a whole series of quotes that dispel that. Are you serious here? Could you provide some references?

Thanks,

oG

Really? I see her anti deadbeats no matter who they are. I have heard her be really rough on women callers and "tell it like it is" not just men callers. While she often tells the "truth" I often do not care for the way she does it as she can be too abrasive. I rarely listen to her since moving to CA but I have never thought her to be against anything other than irresponsible, selfish people regardless of their gender. She is very profamily, putting the kids first before career or relationships, and not sticking one's nose in the business of others, but doing right yourself for yourself and your kids or your spouse regardless what others think or do. But she can be very rough in her way of saying things and that is what buggs me about her.

So Ger, do I understand you correctly that apparently "calling sin be its right name" is a manly task, men's work if you will?