In the Bible, what makes a demand, a law? When does a law become a law. Is it a law because God has spoken and/or is it a law because Moses has spoken it? Who determines what a law is? In the Bible, OT and NT does a law need to be associated with a covenant? Did Jesus change the laws, and if so, which ones and why? First I'd like to see what we understand the law is. There are more than one of them. So that when Paul says, we are not under the law what law is he talking about? etc... I know I've asked several questions here but pick one and answer what you can. Norman

The whole law - the first, five book of the OT [which houses the moral law also]!

What you need to ask is what does it mean to be "under law"?

Romans 2:11 For there is no partiality with God. [Why?] 12 For all who have sinned without the Law will also perish without the Law; and all who have sinned under the Law will be judged by the Law; [why?] 13 for not the hearers of the Law are just before God, but the doers of the Law will be justified!

This is very clear! God doesn't care if you are a Gentile who is "without the law" [a knowledge of the law] or a Jew who is "under the law". Why? Because whether you are a Gentile or a Jew you stand under the jurisdiction of God's law and "under law" it is concerned with one thing: Perfect, unblemished obedience! That's one meaning of the phrase to be "under law"! How so? Look at verse 13! It says that "the doers of the law will be justified." Nothing about condemnation here although all Christians know that we have all sinned and fall short of the glory of God and hence we also stand condemned under the law.

So to be "under law" means that you must obey to be justified, but if you fail even in one point, then it condemns you to the 2nd death.

Robert

How can we answer, "what does it mean to be under the law," if we don't have a clear defintion of the law. For example in Gal 3:19 it says,

Wherefore then serveth the law? It was added because of transgressions, till the seed should come to whom the promise was made; and it was ordained by angels in the hand of a mediator.

The law was add because of transgression. Transgression of what? Well the law of course, then what law was added because or the transgression of the law that already existed? What law is what?

There needs to be a clearification of the "Law" In this case the law is not the same thing. We cannot ignore this fact that a law was added because a current law was being transgressed.

Obvisously the law that was being transgressed is the 10 Commanment law? So what law was added because of it's trasngression? Was it the law of sacrifices, circumcision, civil laws or health laws, what law what added?

Norman

Let's look at the context: Gal 3:17 What I am saying is this: the Law, which came four hundred and thirty years later, does not invalidate a covenant previously ratified by God, so as to nullify the promise. 18 For if the inheritance is based on law, it is no longer based on a promise; but God has granted it to Abraham by means of a promise. 19 Why the Law then? It was added [for the sake of defining] transgressions, having been ordained through angels by the agency of a mediator, until the seed [Jesus] should come to whom the promise had been made.

The NASB reads, "For the sake of defining transgressions." In other words the law was added to make sins into transgressions.

It's like you're going down a road 90mph. You didn't know it was 55mph, yet technically you sinned. Then the Highway Department posts a sign that says 55mph. Now if you go 90mph you are transgressing the law because now it is posted.

The question is what law came "four hundred and thirty years" after God made His covenant with Abraham?

Ex 12:40 says, "Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came about at the end of four hundred and thirty years, to the very day, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt."

Three months later the sons of Israel came into the wilderness of Sinai: Ex 19:1 In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai....3 And Moses went up to God, and the Lord called to him from the mountain, saying,...5 ‘Now then, if you will indeed obey My voice and keep My covenant, then you shall be My own...."

What was the covenant established? Look at the context of Gal 3:10 -- "Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law , to perform them.”

What is "the book of the law"? The first, five books of the Old Testament. This was brought out in the 1888 GC. There EGW said that the law in Galatians was both the ceremonial and the moral law, with emphasis on the moral. I don't have that quote, but you can look it up!


Rob

but transgression is sin.

The book of the law: (ASV) Take this book of the law, and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

In Chapters 27-31 the book of the law is spoken of and finally it was place beside or in the side (outside) of the Ark of the Covenant. Deut is a recap of all that took place from the time Moses delivered the COI till they were about to enter into the Promised Land.

In order to maintain their place in the Promised Land they had to obey the covenant they entered into with God. That covenant had a law that was in place to obey. What was given at Sinai was a reiteration of what was given in the past. Gen 26:5 Because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws. The COI had lost the importance of the law in Egypt and needed to learn what God was like, how much He loved them and what He required of them.

They were promised an earthly Canaan and we are promised a heavenly Canaan. Much better promise to us, if we as they, obey the covenant of which God has written its laws in our hearts. There is no covenant without a law to be kept.

Norman

Let's go back before the human race was created. The Bible tells us there was a war in heaven and we know that Satan and his angels were expelled. They were expelled because they were in opposition to Jesus and the law of heaven, love. The 10 Commandments were in existance there.

How can angels honor their mother and father you might say? How can spirits committ adultery you might also say? Well, adultery is a spiritual violation of the law as well. The COI were constantly being told of their adultery in worshiping other gods. Honoring your father and mother can spiritually refer to those who are in authority over you, which reveals the organization in God's kingdom. There has been a law as long as there has been God, and that's forever.

When Adam and Eve were created they came to life with that law written in their hearts. But God added what appears to be another law which would reveal their love for God. This was not really another law, but a point of reference that summarized all the laws. In other words the 10 Commandments were summarized in this one law. If she ate she revealed that she chose another god before God, Satan. If she ate, it revealed that she did not honor God's authority. If she ate, it meant the she stole what was not hers etc...

After that There was truly another law or ordinance introduced that was not in being utilized in heaven. That was the law(s) for sacrifice, the same ones that Cain refused to obey. That law was added because of transgression.

When Satan tempted Eve with the choice of eating the fruit for wisdom and life, she was in the same situation as the RYR in a sense. Eve had a choice to make, take the fruit and get all the riches that the serpent was offering her or give that all up and stay in obedience to God and keep the riches He had already given her and had stored up for her in the future.

Her choice was obey and live and the RYR's choice was obey Christ and live. She had to avoid a tree and give up the promise of riches in wisdom that Satan offered and her; the RYR had to avoid his riches and wisdom and give them up, in order to live.

Norman

Deuteronomy 31:24 And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, 25 that Moses commanded the Levites, that bare the ark of the covenant of Jehovah, saying, 26 Take this book of the law [the book of Deuteronomy], and put it by the side of the ark of the covenant of Jehovah your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee.

There are five books that make up the book of the law. The moral law is contained in them!

Of course it is. The Torah contains all of God's laws. But the moral law was also kept separate and clearly distinct from the other laws. God spoke the moral law only "and then said no more;" and God wrote it on tables of stone, then put it INSIDE the ark. It was the breaking of the moral law that was sin and caused people to have to sacrifice a lamb, etc. The moral law was/is the legal basis of both the Old and the New Covenants. That it still applies under the New Covenant is proven by Rev. 11: 19. It remains in the ark in the heavenly sanctuary above. God's law is the only thing in the ark. Paul said faith in Christ did not free him from God's law. It is this law that will judge unrepentant violators of God's law in the Judgment. The moral law is eternal as God Himself is eternal because it is an expression of His immutable, loving and righteous character.

Follow carefully and study the book of Deuteronomy.

These be the words which Moses spoke unto all Israel on this side Jordan in the wilderness, in the plain over against the Red sea, between Paran, and Tophel, and Laban, and Hazeroth, and Dizahab. (There are eleven days journey from Horeb by the way of mount Seir unto Kadesh-barnea.) And it came to pass in the fortieth year, in the eleventh month, on the first day of the month, that Moses spoke unto the children of Israel, according unto all that the LORD had given him in commandment unto them; After he had slain Sihon the king of the Amorites, which dwelt in Heshbon, and Og the king of Bashan, which dwelt at Astaroth in Edrei: On this side Jordan, in the land of Moab, began Moses to declare this law, saying, Deu 1:1-5

From this point on Moses is summarizing what has happened in the last 40 years and gives them instruction and warnings. He did this all in that one day and wrote this all down in a book, the book of the law and had it placed in the side of the Ark. This is undisputable fact; read the Bible and see for yourself; I will highlight some verses.

Deu 4:8 And what nation is there so great, that hath statutes and judgments so righteous as all this law, which I set before you this day?

And Moses called all Israel, and said unto them, Hear, O Israel, the statutes and judgments which I speak in your ears this day, that ye may learn them, and keep, and do them. The LORD our God made a covenant with us in Horeb.(That is, Mt Sinai) Deu 5:1,2

Then Moses goes on to repeat the 10 Commandments and afterwards said, Deu 6:1 Now these are the commandments, the statutes, and the judgments, which the LORD your God commanded to teach you, that ye might do them in the land whither ye go to possess it:

In Ch 27&28 Moses pronounces the curses and blessing. Then in Ch 29:1 These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. Here we have two covenants mentioned, the one at Horeb which is Mt Sinai and this one that was being made that day.

move down to 29:21 And the LORD shall separate him unto evil out of all the tribes of Israel, according to all the curses of the covenant that are written in this book of the law: This again is referring to the curses in Ch 27&28 and the book of the law that Moses was writing that day.

Then move on to Ch 30:10; If thou shalt hearken unto the voice of the LORD thy God, to keep his commandments and his statutes which are written in this book of the law, and if thou turn unto the LORD thy God with all thine heart, and with all thy soul. This again is talking about the same book of the law that Moses was writing that day.

And Moses wrote this law, and delivered it unto the priests the sons of Levi, which bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, and unto all the elders of Israel. And Moses commanded them, saying, At the end of every seven years, in the solemnity of the year of release, in the feast of tabernacles, When all Israel is come to appear before the LORD thy God in the place which he shall choose, thou shalt read this law before all Israel in their hearing. Deu 31:9-33 Again the same book as we have been discussing. Finally we end with this.

Deu 31:24
And it came to pass, when Moses had made an end of writing the words of this law in a book, until they were finished, that Moses commanded the Levites, which bore the ark of the covenant of the LORD, saying, Take this book of the law, and put it in the side of the ark of the covenant of the LORD your God, that it may be there for a witness against thee. For I know thy rebellion, and thy stiff neck: behold, while I am yet alive with you this day, ye have been rebellious against the LORD; and how much more after my death? Deu 31:24-27

Here's a NT related verse: Blotting out the handwriting of ordinances that was against us, which was contrary to us, and took it out of the way, nailing it to his cross; Col 2:14

Where do you learn that homosexuality is wrong - in the moral law or the book of the law?

If a police officer pulls me over for speeding have I broken the law or have I kept the law? Right, I've broken the law. If I confess will the police officer let me go free? No! Why not? The law says 55mph! The law can't forgive - it can only condemn. Only if the police officer pays the ticket himself can the law be satisfied.

My point? Repentance of sin is acknowledging that I am a lawbreaker! So if the law is going to judge me then I am in big trouble. But if I am not "under the law" then it can't touch me.

Okay, what law did Paul have in mind in Gal 3:10-25? Here's verse 10:

10 For as many as are of the works of the Law are under a curse; for it is written, “Cursed is everyone who does not abide by all things written in the book of the law, to perform them.”

The seventh commandment prohibits all illicit sexual activity, and as Jesus showed, that includes wrong thinking and wrong desires. It includes all forms of immorality, not only adultery but also fornication. The seventh-commandment is actually a postive commandment of God to encourage faithfulness and loyalty. And of course all of God's commandments are really promises.

So, both the moral law and the book of the law contain prohibitions against homosexuality. That should not surprise us. The main commandments, "You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart and all your strength," as well as the one that says, " You shall love your neighbor as your self," all both in the book of the law. Yet, as you know, they are moral laws. The fact that the moral law prohibited something did not mean it could not be prohibited in greater detail in another section of the law.

Well, first of all, that is not entirely true, Robert. The police officer has the discretion to decide to let you go with only a warning. That happens from time to time. And when it does, does the person say he is released from the law since he has been allowed to go free without a ticket? Will he speed off in cloud of dust? No, he will be sure to be extra careful to obey the speeding laws. He won't claim He is now free of the law, will he?



You are under the law if you violating it, Robert. If the President of the US frees you from prison and gives you pardon, you still are "under the law" if you go out of prison and start committing crimes again. The only way not to be under law is to obey it. A law breaker is condemned by the law. A law-keeper experiences freedom because He is obeying the law.



Back to Jack Sequeira's illustration there, right?

We are under the curse of the law if we are trying to earn salvation or earn God's favor or merit by our works, because then the law only condemns us. It can never solve the sin problem but only point out our defects. We have to go to Christ to solve the sin probelm.

The seventh commandment prohibits all illicit sexual activity, and as Jesus showed, that includes wrong thinking and wrong desires. [/quote]

As it pertains to adultery!!! If you look at a woman...etc. It says nothing of homosexuality. That is a lie and you know it! So homosexuality is found elsewhere outside the moral law! Deal with it!

Well, first of all, that is not entirely true, Robert. The police officer has the discretion to decide to let you go with only a warning.[/quote]

That is based on men's law which is faulty....



God's law doesn't give a ticket, it kills you, not for one day but for eternity!



And you are, or are you claiming to be without sin?



Lord, please open this man's eyes so that he can see! He actually thinks that he is free from under law because he is obeying the law as you did! Please help him. This is my prayer. Amen.

What law? The moral law or the ceremonial laws? The legalists at the 1888 GC said the ceremonial.

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"The law was our schoolmaster to bring us unto Christ, that we might be justified by faith" (Galatians 3:24). In this Scripture, the Holy Spirit through the apostle is speaking especially of the moral law ."

Now what does Paul concluded since we have established that the law in Galatains is the moral law?

Gal 3:25 "Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the law."

Why? Romans 3:23 All have sinned [past tense] and come short of the glory of God [present tense].

Since the law doesn't accept sin either in the past or present tense, you had better not be under the law.

The seventh commandment prohibits all illicit sexual activity, and as Jesus showed, that includes wrong thinking and wrong desires. [/quote]

As it pertains to adultery!!! If you look at a woman...etc. It says nothing of homosexuality. That is a lie and you know it! So homosexuality is found elsewhere outside the moral law! Deal with it![/quote]

Robert, you better check it out again. I am surprised at you: you are reading the Ten Commandments like a legalist living under the Old Covenant, as if these laws were a mere list of do's and dont's. But that, they aren't.

Remember that Jesus Christ Himself showed that the 7th commandment deals with all sorts of sexual impurity, not just adultery, or sex between married couples. It prohibits sexual relations of any kind that is not between a man and woman who are married to each other. It even goes to the heart and the mind, not just observable behavior. And that, my good friend, is no lie. Perhaps you forget how "exceeding broad" is God's moral law.

The seventh commandment also prohibits sexual relations between a woman and an animal, but those things are also spelled out more clearly outside the Ten Commandments so as to make sure everyone had a clear understanding of what God meant. Actually there is no sin anyone can commit that would not be covered by the Ten Commandments.

Robert, you do talk very loosely indeed. I may be mistaken, but I don't lie.

Yes, the law in Galatians 3:19 that God added in order to be our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ was especially the moral law. It was not against the promises of God because while it had no power to save, it pointed out sin and thus made us aware of our need of a Saviour. Thus, as Paul says, "the law is holy, righteous, and good." In fact, the Psalms says the law is "perfect, converting the soul."

Now that you accept what Ellen White says about the law being our school-master, will you accept the other things that she says about the law of God?

The way you have of apparently only paying attention to selected passages of Ellen White makes me think you use Ellen White's quotes to win arguments or only when you find she agrees with your opinions. I've seen people use the Bible the same way.

What about Steps To Christ-- do you believe what she has written in that book? I do.

The book of the law that Moses wrote in the land of Moab, was athe covenant repeated with the COI's children. As I was reading and study this further today I saw that this covenant was made with the young ones who were not of age of accountablilty. They did not know what was going on when the COI refused to go into the promised land and then were told to wander 40 years and then they decided to go ahead and do what God originnally said but now it was too late.

These young ones did not enter into a covenant with God only their parents did. That's why Moses said, These are the words of the covenant, which the LORD commanded Moses to make with the children of Israel in the land of Moab, beside the covenant which he made with them in Horeb. Deu 29:1 Moab is where the COI were when on that day, Moses wrote the book of the law and Horeb is where the 10 Commandments were orignally given; along with other laws. The most important fact that we must note, is that there were no curses pronounced against disobedience until that day when Moses wrote that book of the law, which was the same day that he died. There more than meets the eye here.

Change gears:

As I have said in a previous post, the 10 Commandments have always existed and all other laws were added because of their transgression.

Look at the days of Noah, why did God destroy the world? Because He was fed up? Because He didn't like those people? No, God is far too just to do something like that without cause. (Remember when Abraham was pleading with the Lord concerning Sodom) What was the cause? And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually. Gen 6:5

How does God justify that destruction? And He must justify it because He has set in action an order of things that are designed to reveal that He is a just, righteous and a loving God. So by His own oath He will prove this.

There must be a point of reference for all judgment. A standard for the justification of life or death. If not then God would not destroy the wicked, whether you think He permits it or does it Himself, He is responsible for all life and gives life to whom He will. Please think carefully on that one, I am not saying He has favorites as you can see by what I have written above.

The bottom line is this the 10 Commandments are used as a standard of judgment and if they are not, then it means that God just picks and chooses who He wants regardless of impartiality and that is utterly opposed to God's character.

All other laws were added because of the trangression of the 10 Commandments, period.

Norman

Not at all, it's just that homosexuality is not coverved under the 7th command or even the expanded version. Here:

"You shall not commit adultery."

“You have heard that it was said, ‘Do not commit adultery.’ But I tell you that anyone who looks at a woman lustfully has already committed adultery with her in his heart."

The word "pornia" includes a very wide range of sexual sins all of which are unlawful.


`og

Yes, the law in Galatians 3:19 that God added in order to be our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ was especially the moral law. It was not against the promises of God because while it had no power to save, it pointed out sin and thus made us aware of our need of a Saviour....In fact, the Psalms says the law is "perfect, converting the soul." [/quote]

The law condemns...it demands death! It doesn't convert - it scares - it causes mental anguish - it terrifies - it brings wrath! However, it can be used that unbelievers will run to Christ. Why? "There's no condemnation to those who are in Christ."

"The law" spoken of by David (see your quote) refers to the Bible David had at that time. Most likely the Torah? But David isn't thinking of the law of God.



No, because EGW is not the measuring stick of truth. The Bible is! So I'll go to Paul:

Gal 3:23 Before this faith came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until faith should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge to lead us to Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law .

Please prove this using the Bible!



The whole law will be used as a standard, but especially the 10 commandments!



Gal 3:17 "What I mean is this: The law, introduced 430 years later, does not set aside the covenant previously established by God [with Abraham] and thus do away with the promise."

What law was introduced 430 yeas later?

The covenant previously established:

Gen 15:5 And He took him outside and said, “Now look toward the heavens, and count the stars, if you are able to count them.” And He said to him, “So shall your descendants be.” 6 Then he believed in the Lord; and He reckoned it to him as righteousness.

God foretells the future of Abram's offspring :

Gensis 15:13 And God said to Abram, “Know for certain that your descendants will be strangers in a land that is not theirs, where they will be enslaved and oppressed four hundred years.

The end of the 430 years:

Ex 12:40 Now the time that the sons of Israel lived in Egypt was four hundred and thirty years. 41 And it came about at the end of four hundred and thirty years, to the very day, that all the hosts of the Lord went out from the land of Egypt.

3 months later Israel is at Sinai:

Ex 19:1 In the third month after the sons of Israel had gone out of the land of Egypt, on that very day they came into the wilderness of Sinai.

The rest is history! What law was received 430 years after God made the covenant of promise with Abram?

Ex 19:18 Now Mount Sinai was all in smoke because the Lord descended upon it in fire; and its smoke ascended like the smoke of a furnace, and the whole mountain quaked violently....20:1 Then God spoke all these words, saying,
2 “I am the Lord your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery. 3 “You shall have no other gods before Me...."

What law? The 10 commandment were added to expose sin! Added means posted. The law was given to turn sin into transgression. Yes, mankind was sinning before the law, but when God posted the law it made sinning a crime. It turns sin into condemnation!

Let’s say you are driving fast and a police officer pulls you over. He says, “you were going 90 mph in a 55 mph.” And you reply, “I didn’t see anything posted!” And he says, “You are right”!

What does Paul say? “the Law brings about wrath, but where there is no law, neither is there violation.” Romans 14:15

So the police officer posts the speed limit! You come by doing 90 mph. Just as before you were speeding, but now that speed law is posted. Now when the police officer pulls you over he will give you a ticket! Why? You have knowingly transgressed the law. That’s why God posted the law! People were sinning, but they weren’t aware of it. So God turn sin into transgression. It made matters worse….Now you were not only a sinner, you now stood guilty!!!

?

This is a typical diversion tactic of those who state they believe in ALL of ELLEN. They simply can't relate to someone who actually reads the Bible to check out what Ellen has to say. To them it is ALL or NOTHING.

John317 ... I've noticed that you ask this question of a number of people. I am not sure why.

I have a leather edition that is full of underlines. I very much like this book. But as with most of EGW's books .... I do find error. I don't just accept a book as a whole. I read and enjoy that which is correct. I don't really dwell on the parts that are error.

However ... her errors do not diminish the good that is in the book. Some of us are not just robots that have to have the all or nothing philosophy.

In with the good ... out with the bad.

Because its message is very clear and very Biblical. I give it out regularly at my work. All the teenagers coming through that institution get a Bible and the book, Steps To Jesus. Many staff have requested the book in order to read and share with others also.



What Bible teaching does it contradict? What parts would you cut out because they contain error and contradict the Bible?

John317 ... I would never change your mind . IT is not possible. FOR you have already stated that you believe in all that EGW wrote for publication. That sounds pretty closed to me especially if you haven't read all that she wrote for publication.

And I know that you are not seriously asking me about STC because why would you want to know this from someone who you have called the Devil?

I just finished watching 3abn and heard a wonderful message by pastor Ivor Myers. He spoke about the cross and one thing that he mentioned really stuck with me. When the angels sinned in heaven, God had a choice; He could change His law (The Ten Commandments) or let the angels go/perish. He chose to uphold His law and the angels perished (they were sentenced)

When Christ was on the cross dying for our sins, God could have changed the law or let His Son go/perish. He chose to uphold His law and let His Son perish!

The broken law that caused Jesus to die for our sins could not be changed, not in heaven, not at the cross, not now and not ever. The cross is a testament to the validity and unchangeability of the Law of God. Anyone who says that the law has been done away misunderstands the law and is actually preaching an anti cross message.

That, in a nutshell was part of his message. It was truly a blessing! He also stated that the conflict in the end is not really about the Sabbath, the Sabbath is a sympton of the problem, but a misunderstanding of the cross and what it means. If you can get a hold of this message dated Sabbath 07-07-07 please get it. You will be blessed.

Norman

Show me a text that says the 10 commandments existed in heaven. For one it wouldn't make sense to tell an angel not to commit adultery. And therefore it wouldn't make any sense to tell them to "Honor your father and your mother".

Norman, when you stand before the judgment seat of God, and the law of God says to you, “Have you obeyed me?” And you say to the law, “Well, I did my best.”

The law will say, “I did not ask that question.”

“Well, I kept most of the law.”

The law will say, “I did not ask you that question either. Have you obeyed me in every detail?”

“Well, I goofed up a few times.”

And the law says, “I’m sorry, you must die. Once is enough.”

But you can thank God you will not answer the law that way. Instead you will say, “Yes, I have obeyed you perfectly.”

The law will say, “When did you obey me perfectly?”

“When I was in Christ. Then I had perfect obedience.”

But the law will say, “You’re a sinner, you must die.”

And you will say to the law, “Well I have bad news for you, I have already died.”

The law will say, “When did you die?”

And you will quote to the law Galatians 2:20:

I have been crucified with Christ and I no longer live....

The law will say, “Well, if that’s your position, then you are free to live.”

And you will say to the law, “Thank you.”

Because, in Christ, the law has been established on behalf of you and me. God doesn’t bypass His law to justify us. God holds His integrity to His law when He justifies me through His Son Jesus Christ. Because, in His Son’s holy history, God has met every demand of the law for you and for me.

When God accused the COI of adultery, he was talking about going after other gods. Satan and the fallen angels did this. The angels had to honor their Father and who was the mother? Jesus gives us a understanding in these words. But he answered and said unto him that told him, Who is my mother? and who are my brethren? And he stretched forth his hand toward his disciples, and said, Behold my mother and my brethren! For whosoever shall do the will of my Father which is in heaven, the same is my brother, and sister, and mother. Mat 12:48-50

Those who are obedient are mothers in heaven. Put off the carnal man and look at this with spiritual eyes. Jesus is the husband and the church is the bride the same principle applied in heaven. So in heaven, to obey you father and mother meant to obey the Father-God and the church or body of angels-mother. The falen angels did not listen to those who remained faithful. In that case the unfallen angels were as a mother pleading with the other angels not to listen to Lucifer. If they had obeyed them the unfallen angels would still be in heaven.

Where do you think God got the 10 C from? He certainly didn't make them up on the day that He gave them to Moses. Death was on this earth and delayed death was in heaven. Jude 1:6 And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The wages of sin is death. There is no other law in heaven or earth that has that result.

Also there can be no mercy without law and God is merciful. The instant you have no law you have no mercy to show because there's nothing and no one to offend.

That is not what will be asked. God will ask everyone this one question. Have you accepted my Son? If not then that is the end of it. If yes, then the burden of proof will be the life that I have lived. My words will mean nothing without the works to prove my faith. If by my works (which have been done by Christ) I have proven that I have accepted His Son, then I receive my reward. Then I will have shown that I have lived by every word that proceedeth out from the mouth of God.

Not because God needs to know by my works, but there is a controversy going on and the entire universe must know. Have I received the Holy Spirit of promise and lived according to the guidance of the Spirit of His Son? Have I loved as Jesus loved? Have I lived as Jesus did?

In doing these things I will have overcome evil (breaking the 10C) with the good that Christ has done through me. What Jesus did at His death and resurrection has given me time to reveal my loyalties to Him or to keep on in rebellion.

At the cross of Christ it was our day of judgment and had Christ rejected the cross we all would be lost and this earth would have been destroy then. But now we have justification of life and can go on living because Christ has paid the price for sin. He bought us and that has given us time and life. Yes His life is our life and yes when God looks at us He sees Christ and His merits are ours, but there is more to this.

If all that was necessary was you said, then there is no reason for God to keep this world going the way it is, He would have come long ago. The law that is written on my heart if followed in human strength will cause me to be a legalist living by dos and don'ts. But the law of God written in my heart followed in the strength of the Holy Spirit produces the life of Christ in me.

That is what God is waiting for. Christ in you the hope of glory, in His church.

That's a stretch of the imagination! Well, I'll give you credit for effort, but I don't buy it at all! You know very well that adultery, in the 10 commandments, has to do with sexual sins. Yes Jesus spiritualized this as you stated, but that's not what the 7th commandment is speaking of....Nice try!



That didn't answer my question!

Then you'll never make it! Never! Why?

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive , the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [SC 28,29]

"What greater deception can come upon human minds than a confidence that they are right when they are all wrong! The message of the True Witness finds the people of God in a sad deception, yet honest in that deception. They know not that their condition is deplorable in the sight of God. While those addressed are flattering themselves that they are in an exalted spiritual condition, the message of the True Witness breaks their security by the startling denunciation of their true condition of spiritual blindness, poverty, and wretchedness." [3T 252]

"Many see much to admire in the life of Christ. But true love for him can never dwell in the heart of the self-righteous. Not to see our own deformity is not to see the beauty of Christ's character. When we are fully awake to our own sinfulness, we shall appreciate Christ. The more humble are our views of ourselves, the more clearly we shall see the spotless character of Jesus. He who says, "I am holy, I am sinless," is self-deceived. Some have said this, and some even dare to say, "I am Christ." To entertain such a thought is blasphemy. Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption ." [R&H 9-25-1900]

Norman, that is a distortion of what Paul actually said.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam] there resulted [past tense] condemnation to all men , likewise through one act of righteousness [Christ, the 2nd Adam] there resulted [past tense] justification of life to all men .

Norman, if you loved like Christ that would be just great. If you lived like Christ does (selflessly) that too would be great. But if you actually think that this is going to get you a front row seat or that your reward will be better and bigger, well, I've got some bad news for you. There are going to be quite a few people there who didn't measure up to Christ's love. Let me quote Ellen for you again. First let me quote their sins:

"They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts?"

Well, have they?

"Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God?"

"Have they not placed their own interests above His service?"

"Have they not loved the things of the world?"

"Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another."

Not too good, huh Norm? Does this mean there was no fruit from these believers' lives?

"But while the followers of Christ have sinned, they have not given themselves up to be controlled by the satanic agencies."

So yes there's fruit, but there's also bad fruit!

What does Christ do since they have failed to fully live His life?

"He [Jesus] who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands [that’s the “in Christ” motif]. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them."
[Taken from P&K 588]

So Norm you go ahead and live Christ's life. I think that is very commendable! But please don't think that others who have failed to fully live Christ's life are not going to make it!

Thanks Robert. Here is the rest of the story that you started.

"All who have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness will stand before Him as chosen and faithful and true. Satan has no power to pluck them out of the hand of the Saviour." PK 587

"The tempter stands by to accuse them, as he stood by to resist Joshua. He points to their FILTHY garments, their defective characters. He presents their weakness and folly, their sins of ingratitude, their unlikeness to Christ, which has dishonored their Redeemer. He endeavors to affright them with the thought that their case is hopeless, that the stain of their defilement will never be washed away. He hopes so to destroy their faith that they will yield to his temptations, and turn from their allegiance to God." PK 588

"Satan has an accurate knowledge of the sins that he has tempted God's people to commit, and he urges his accusations against them, declaring, that by their sins they have forfeited divine protection, and claiming that he has the right to destroy them. He pronounces them just as deserving as himself of exclusion from the favor of God. "Are these," he says, "the people who are to take my place in heaven, and the place of the angels who united with me? They profess to obey the law of God; but have they kept its precepts? Have they not been lovers of self more than lovers of God? Have they not placed their own interests above His service? Have they not loved the things of the world? Look at the sins that have marked their lives. Behold their selfishness, their malice, their hatred of one another. Will God banish me and my angels from His presence, and yet reward those who have been guilty of the same sins? Thou canst not do this, O Lord, in justice. Justice demands that sentence be pronounced against them." PK 588

" They have repented of their sins and have sought the Lord in humility and contrition, and the divine Advocate pleads in their behalf. He who has been most abused by their ingratitude, who knows their sin and also their penitence, declares: "The Lord rebuke thee, O Satan. I gave My life for these souls. They are graven upon the palms of My hands. They may have imperfections of character; they may have failed in their endeavors; but they have repented, and I have forgiven and accepted them." PK 589

Beautiful isn't it?

Norman, please comment on P&K 588....Maybe we can come to some sort of consensus?