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#131238 - 06/24/07 04:50 AM Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith
A_G_Brito Moderator Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 127

The Balaam Factor


We have a very special question that I developed when I found a syllabus of a certain anti-Sabbath Christian apologist in which he presented, among many arguments on the law-was-abolished line of thought, the text of Hebrews 8:6-10. Said passage makes reference to the New Covenant, or New Testament, in which God is willing to write what is called "My laws" on the hearts and minds of those who accept the terms of that New Covenant.

He tried to convince his readers that these "My laws" would mean something of a new Christian law that left the Sabbath commandment out of the picture (but, strangely, not any of the other nine of the Decalogue).

When I read that, I thought: "Wait a minute! Here it says, 'My laws', and not 'My new laws'! And since the text is a mere reproduction of Jeremiah 31:31-33, when the same promise was made to Israel, then why is this man alleging that what God proposes to write in the minds and on the hearts of those who accept the New Covenant [New Testament] would have a different law? It is THE SAME that was known by the prophet Jeremiah!"

Of course all those elements that were prefigurations of Christ's sacrifice are not included because when Hebrews was written, both his author and his primary readers already knew that the temple's veil had been rent from top to bottom, signifying the end of all ceremonial aspects of the law. But none of the commandments of the moral law had its end at that time.

Thus, this Sabbath opposer's allegation became rather an inspiration for me to formulate the question below, which has already versions in Portuguese, Spanish, English, French, German and now. . . Kiswahili, a language widely spoken throughout the African continent.

I would say that what we have here is the "Balaam Factor" in action. All certainly remember the Bible episode of that apostate prophet of Israel who went to the Israelite's enemies side, and was "hired" to utter a curse on God's people, but by the Lord's interference, the curse was reversed into a blessing to Israel.

So, that criticism against the Sabbath truth became a blessing to show the error of such reasoning, and now we are publicizing this question, that both Sunday keepers and adepts of the more "user friendly" nodayism/anydayism/everydayism are unable to answer, as I have tested it time after time.

The fact is that the equation they try to establish: NEW COVENANT = NEW LAW continues without being resolved satisfactorily. It's simply not so. . .

Well, below is the question, first in English, then in our most recent international version, Kiswahili, that a brother from Kenya kindly translated for us, and finally in French, that we composed also recently (we also have it in Portuguese, Spanish and German).

If you know any other languages and could volunteer to put it into a different one, please send me a note about. God will reward you richly because I am quite convinced that it is an important evangelistic tool:

English Version:

Where is it written that in the change from the Old to the New Covenant, when God writes what is called “My laws” in the hearts and minds of those who accept the terms of the New Covenant [New Testament] (Heb. 8:6-10), transferring the contents of the cold tables of stone to the hearts warmed by the divine grace (2 Cor. 3:2-7), God

a) leaves out the 4th commandment of the moral law;

b) includes the 4th commandment, but changing the sanctity of the 7th to the 1st day of the week?

OR

c) includes the 4th commandment, but as a vague, voluntary and variable principle that can be reinterpreted as any day which is most convenient to the believer (or his employer)?

ALSO:

d) leaves out the dietary rules regarding unclean/clean meats?

Basic texts: Hebrews 8:6-10; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 11:19, 20 and 36:26, 27; Isaiah 66:16-18.


Kiswahili Version:

Ni wapi imeandikwa ya kwamba kutoka agano la Kale hadi Agano Jipya, wakati Mungu anapoandika kile anachoita “Sheria Zangu” katika mioyo na kwenye nia za wale wanaokubali masharti za Agano Jipya (Ebr. 8:6-10), zikihamisha vyote vilivyomo katika vile vibao vya mawe baridi kwa mioyo zinazopata moto kwa neema ya mbinguni (2 Kor. 3:2-7), Mungu

a) aliacha amri ya nne katika torati;

b) alizingatia amri ya nne, lakini akaibadili utakatifu ya siku ya saba hadi siku ya kwanza ya juma?

AU

c) alizingatia amri ya nne, lakini kama kanuni lizilo dhahiri, la hiari, na bila sharti lolote na amabalo linaweza kufasiriwa kama siku yeyote inayofaa zaidi kwa mwaminifu (ama tajiri wake)?

TENA:

d) aliacha masharti za chakula yanayohusu nyama najisi/safi?

Vifungu: Waebrania 8:6-10; Yeremia 31:31-33; Ezekieli 11:19,20 na 36:26,27; Isaya 66:16-18.


French Version:

Où est-il dite dans l'Écriture Sainte qui quand Dieu écrit ce qui s’appelle les “mes lois” dans les coeurs et les esprits de ceux qui acceptent les termes de Son nouveau concert (Nouveau Testament), les transférant des froids tables de pierre aux coeurs chauffés par la grace divine (voir 2 Cor. 3:2, 3.,6 et 7), Il

a) laisse excepté le 4ême. commandement de la loi morale (du décalogue biblique, non du décalogue contrefait des catecismes catholiques)

b) inclut le 4ême. commandement, mais en changeant la sainteté du septième au premier jour de la semaine?

OU

c) inclut le 4ème. commandement, mais comme un principe vague, volontaire et variable, que n'importe être suivi littéralement comme la Bible dit, dans le septième jour comme Mémorial de la Création, mais chacun pouvant choisir le temps qui plus lui conviendra (ou à son employeur) pour consacrer à Dieu.

AUSSI:

d) exclut les règles de restrictions alimentaires sur des viandes immondes?

Textes basiques: Hébreux 8:6-10; Jérémie 31:31-33; Ézéchiel 36:26, 27; Ésaïe 66:15-18.


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#132078 - 06/29/07 08:30 PM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 9047
Loc: CA
 Originally Posted By: A_G_Brito
[font:Times New Roman]
The Balaam Factor

[size:11pt]We have a very special question that I developed when I found a syllabus of a certain anti-Sabbath Christian apologist in which he presented, among many arguments on the law-was-abolished line of thought, the text of Hebrews 8:6-10. Said passage makes reference to the New Covenant, or New Testament, in which God is willing to write what is called "My laws" on the hearts and minds of those who accept the terms of that New Covenant.

He tried to convince his readers that these "My laws" would mean something of a new Christian law that left the Sabbath commandment out of the picture (but, strangely, not any of the other nine of the Decalogue).

When I read that, I thought: "Wait a minute! Here it says, 'My laws', and not 'My new laws'! And since the text is a mere reproduction of Jeremiah 31:31-33, when the same promise was made to Israel, then why is this man alleging that what God proposes to write in the minds and on the hearts of those who accept the New Covenant [New Testament] would have a different law? It is THE SAME that was known by the prophet Jeremiah!"

Of course all those elements that were prefigurations of Christ's sacrifice are not included because when Hebrews was written, both his author and his primary readers already knew that the temple's veil had been rent from top to bottom, signifying the end of all ceremonial aspects of the law. But none of the commandments of the moral law had its end at that time.


...The fact is that the equation they try to establish: NEW COVENANT = NEW LAW continues without being resolved satisfactorily. It's simply not so. . .


...Where is it written that in the change from the Old to the New Covenant, when God writes what is called ?My laws? in the hearts and minds of those who accept the terms of the New Covenant [New Testament] (Heb. 8:6-10), transferring the contents of the cold tables of stone to the hearts warmed by the divine grace (2 Cor. 3:2-7), God

a) leaves out the 4th commandment of the moral law;

b) includes the 4th commandment, but changing the sanctity of the 7th to the 1st day of the week?

OR

c) includes the 4th commandment, but as a vague, voluntary and variable principle that can be reinterpreted as any day which is most convenient to the believer (or his employer)?

ALSO:

d) leaves out the dietary rules regarding unclean/clean meats?

Basic texts: Hebrews 8:6-10; Jeremiah 31:31-33; Ezekiel 11:19, 20 and 36:26, 27; Isaiah 66:16-18....


We are beginning to hear talk and suggetions even from among SDAs that we need to "revisit" the issue of whether the moral law of God is really binding on Christians.

Another thing we are hearing even from among SDA is that God writes only principles of love on our heart and not really laws as such. According to them, God only writes principles and not rules. They react in horror at the thought that anyone would think of obeying God's laws. That is legalism, in their antinomian minds. One well-known minister contradicts both the Bible and Ellen White by saying that God only writes the last six commandments of God's law on our hearts. Ellen White agrees with the Bible that the same laws that God wrote on stone are the laws that God writes on our hearts, if we will let Him. However, He can't write the Sabbath commandment on our hearts if we disobey the Sabbath commandment and are not letting Him sanctify us from week to week. And if He hasn't been able to seal the law in our minds and if we haven't got the Sabbath commandment written in our minds, we will not be among those who keep the commandments of God when the first beast power of Rev. 14 threatens to kill those who disobey his laws. We will then find it easy to betray God and worship the beast.

Apparently the devil has many ways of getting around the truth that under the New Covenant God writes his "laws" on our heart and on our minds. Christ said that the greatest commandments were the first four, not the last six, so why would God not write the greatest commandments on our hearts and minds?

One important Bible teaching that shows the Sabbath is part of the New Covenant is that nothing could be added to or subtracted from the New Covenant after it was ratified. It was ratified by the blood of Christ at his death. Therefore, in order for the Sabbath to be dropped and the Sunday added to the New Covenant, it would have been necessary for it to have been done before Christ's death. I have never seen any evidence ever produced that shows this to have been the case. In fact, I've never seen anyone who believes in Sunday give a Bible response to this statement. No doubt it is because they can't. Their mouth is stopped.




Edited by John317 (06/29/07 08:39 PM)
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#132335 - 07/01/07 02:54 AM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: John317]
A_G_Brito Moderator Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 127
Dear friends and brothers in Christ

First, let me correct a little sentence in my last text. It is just a small typo, in the reproduction of the Question on Doctrines text that I quote.

It's in the 6th paragraph under the title "The SDA Pioneers’ Struggle to Form a New Church".

The word "changes" should be corrected for "charges".

So, as it is: >>But the changes and attacks have persisted.<<

Should read: But the charges and attacks have persisted.

As to these new opinions, first these people ignore that what we teach is in harmony with the classical, historical position of all Protestant Christians, as we can read in their confessional documents, such as the Westminster Confession of Faith, the Baptist Confession of Faith of 1689 and other Christian documents.

So, this new trend of thought is just one more sign of the true love that is getting colder and colder in many hearts, as Jesus prophesied to characterize these last days of human history: "Because of the increase of wickedness, the love of most will grow cold" (Matt. 24:12).

Another point is that some are really stressing the "love to the neighbor" part of the golden rule because after Jesus said that in Matt. 24:36-40 we don't find the first "commandment" as clearly enunciated, just the second one (like in Rom. 13:10; 1 John 2:7-11, etc).

But we also find a clear connection between our attachment to God that leads to loving our neighbors in I John 4:7-21, especially, vs. 20.

Have a blessed week.


Edited by A_G_Brito (07/01/07 02:57 AM)

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#132696 - 07/03/07 06:32 PM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Monsieur Brito,

I read with interest your question about the new covenant/new law. That issue is one which I, too, have faced. But here is my question in response:

How may one establish which 'laws' PAUL is referring to in Heb. 8 and 10? Paul, like other Bible writers, at times does quote OT passages out of context. The mere fact that Paul quotes from Jeremiah would not seem, in and of itself, sufficient to prove that he refers to the Ten Commandments. He may be applying a principle, with a different application for believers under the New Covenant.

Dave
_________________________
"Study to show yourself approved by God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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#132700 - 07/03/07 07:11 PM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: David Koot]
A_G_Brito Moderator Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 127
Okay, brother

Thanks for your feedback. It's good to have this kind of participation, looking for clarification of important points of the Bible teaching.

I would remind you that Paul recommends normally, as of knowing nothing of any abolition of the Ten Commandments, the 5th., 8th, 9th and 10th precepts of the Decalogue to both the Ephesians and the Romans (see Eph. 6:1-3; 4:25-31; Rom. 13:8-10). He also says that he, with his mind, serves God's law, and in the context he not only recognizes this law as holy, just, good, pleasurable, spiritual, as he mentions specifically the commandment "ye shall not covet" (Rom. 7, vs. 25, cf. vs. 7 e 8, plus 12, 14, 22...), which shows he didn't think of that precept as belonging to an old, surpassed law.

So, those who teach the end of the Ten Commandments have no basis for their allegations, for Paul simply ignored any such abolition. James, on the other hand, clearly refers to the 10 Commandments as the rule to be followed (James 2:8-12). So, here we have another New Testament writer who ignored any such abolition of the 10 Commandments. By the way, traditionally the Protestant-evangelical confessional documents stress the 10 Commandments as still the norm of Christian behavior. Didn't you hear about this new campaign highlighting the importance of these 10 Commandments for Americans today? How about checking the "10 Commandments Commission" and its international campaign about that?

Now, the bottom line is the Sabbath commandment, which would have been abolished IF it really had any ceremonial role, something the anti-Sabbatarian struggle to prove but can't. See that Paul discusses in Hebrews in detail all the meaning of the many ceremonies and rites in the law, in chapters 7 through 10. Now, since the Sabbath was such an important principle for Israel, if it had any such ceremonial, prefigurative role, being abolished in the cross, he no doubt would have discussed in detail such a role for the Sabbath. However, we find no hints of any idea of abolition of the Sabbath in these chapters for its supposed prefigurative role. That would be the right place where such a discussion would occur.

Instead of desqualifying the Sabbath commandment, Paul refers to it in a positive, rather than negative, manner in chaps. 3 and 4 of Hebrews.

To say that the Sabbath just pointed to salvation in Christ and was abolished as the "shadow" met the "reality" makes no sense. The women who served Jesus so closely and who, certainly had experienced the "salvation rest" didn't, because of that, neglect keeping the Sabbath "according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56). Those in Israel who found the spiritual "rest" highlighted in chaps. 3 and 4, and who are listed in the "hall of fame" of the heroes of Israel, in chap. 11, didn't neglect their keeping of the Sabbath because of that.



Edited by A_G_Brito (07/03/07 07:19 PM)

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#132765 - 07/04/07 01:03 AM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
A_G_Brito Moderator Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 127
How about reproducing the "Ten Commandments Day Proclamation" as can be found in the website of the "Ten Commandments Commission", an interfaith grass-roots movement that is growing fast across the USA, and already getting support from religious leaders of other countries? See below in navy what we copied from said website:

We, the members of the Ten Commandments Commission and supporting people of faith, proclaim The Ten Commandments Day on the first Sunday in the month of May, commencing on Sunday, May Sixth of 2007.

Furthermore, we proclaim the Ten Commandments Day to be a day dedicated for the display, awareness, commemoration and celebration of the Decalogue which we know to be the divine foundation of the Judeo-Christian faith.

We, the members of the commission, serve as a cohesive group of spiritual leaders representing millions of followers who affirm the beauty and the uniqueness of our differences. We believe that rooted in the Ten Commandments is a Divine plan that transcends color and diversity in cultural expression, sanctions brotherhood of man and respects expressions in all of God's children.

We, who serve as a council of leaders, are committed to utilizing our united passion to provide purpose and direction for reversing the enormous tide of immorality continuing to be released throughout the United States of America, and on all continents of the world. This unified voice will culminate annually on the Ten Commandments Day and provide for a united, global, spiritual platform based on the Ten Commandments. This platform will respond to the call echoed throughout creation for a true expression love, harmony and reconciliation among all nations, ethnic diversities and genders through education and rededication to the moral standard as given by our Loving Creator.

Therefore, we are calling on all community and spiritual leaders; churches, synagogues, fellowships, ministries, organizations and all who care about moral values, to celebrate the annual Ten Commandments Day by hosting local events in support of the Ten Commandments and what they represent.

Finally, we proclaim the need to heal the wounds of history through strategic and practical objectives, proactive love and obedience to the commands of God.

By signing this document, I hereby give my commitment of support to the ideals brought forth by the Ten Commandments Commission in the establishment of the annual Ten Commandments Day, and to the moral standard we acknowledge and seek to uphold by the grace of Almighty God.


The number of signatures obtained is nearing 331.000. And explaining "Who we are" we read:

The Ten Commandments Commission was formed in the spring of 2005. The main purpose behind the organization is to create of a global think tank with the world’s leaders who have already recognized the power behind the TCC. We are a grass root movement joined by some of the nation's largest ministries.


Very significant, indeed.

For checking this information better, see the link below:

http://www.tencommandmentsday.com/index.php



Edited by A_G_Brito (07/04/07 01:10 AM)

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#132809 - 07/04/07 06:49 AM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: A_G_Brito]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
 Originally Posted By: A_G_Brito


I would remind you that Paul recommends normally, as of knowing nothing of any abolition of the Ten Commandments, the 5th., 8th, 9th and 10th precepts of the Decalogue to both the Ephesians and the Romans (see Eph. 6:1-3; 4:25-31; Rom. 13:8-10). He also says that he, with his mind, serves God's law, and in the context he not only recognizes this law as holy, just, good, pleasurable, spiritual, as he mentions specifically the commandment "ye shall not covet" (Rom. 7, vs. 25, cf. vs. 7 e 8, plus 12, 14, 22...), which shows he didn't think of that precept as belonging to an old, surpassed law.


Yet, Paul speaks of trying to keep the law in his past experience as a zealous Jew. And he speaks of the law to Jews and Judaizers. In other places, he points out that the law was a schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, and now we are no longer under the jurisdiction of the law. In fact, in Rom. 7 he points out that believers have died to the law and are no longer bound by the law, but now are joined to Jesus Christ.

 Quote:

So, those who teach the end of the Ten Commandments have no basis for their allegations, for Paul simply ignored any such abolition. James, on the other hand, clearly refers to the 10 Commandments as the rule to be followed (James 2:8-12).


But James was speaking to those who were zealous for the law, and was saying, if you are going to try to keep the law, you must keep the entire law.

 Quote:
By the way, traditionally the Protestant-evangelical confessional documents stress the 10 Commandments as still the norm of Christian behavior.


Sometimes that is true, but not in terms of salvation. Simply as guidelines for right living.

 Quote:

Now, the bottom line is the Sabbath commandment, which would have been abolished IF it really had any ceremonial role, something the anti-Sabbatarian struggle to prove but can't. See that Paul discusses in Hebrews in detail all the meaning of the many ceremonies and rites in the law, in chapters 7 through 10. Now, since the Sabbath was such an important principle for Israel, if it had any such ceremonial, prefigurative role, being abolished in the cross, he no doubt would have discussed in detail such a role for the Sabbath. However, we find no hints of any idea of abolition of the Sabbath in these chapters for its supposed prefigurative role. That would be the right place where such a discussion would occur.

Instead of desqualifying the Sabbath commandment, Paul refers to it in a positive, rather than negative, manner in chaps. 3 and 4 of Hebrews.


Rather, Paul referred to the spiritual reality which the Sabbath of the Old Testament illustrated and pointed forward. Now that the reality has come, the shadow, that is the weekly Sabbath day, has no more place.
 Quote:
The women who served Jesus so closely and who, certainly had experienced the "salvation rest" didn't, because of that, neglect keeping the Sabbath "according to the commandment" (Luke 23:56).


They were devout Jews. And it took the Jewish believers decades to shake off the practices of the old covenant.

 Quote:

Those in Israel who found the spiritual "rest" highlighted in chaps. 3 and 4, and who are listed in the "hall of fame" of the heroes of Israel, in chap. 11, didn't neglect their keeping of the Sabbath because of that.


Of course. They were under the Old Covenant, in Old Testament times, and they were faithful in keeping that covenant.
_________________________
"Study to show yourself approved by God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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#132883 - 07/04/07 05:28 PM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: David Koot]
David Koot Offline
Craftsman

Registered: 03/13/06
Posts: 3513
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
Permit me to clarify: The arguments which I posted above, are some which I have heard at various times. I do not necessarily subscribe to all of them. But, they are commonly used.

Dave
_________________________
"Study to show yourself approved by God, a good workman who needs not be ashamed, rightly dividing the Word of truth." 2 Timothy 2:15

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#132973 - 07/05/07 01:57 AM Re: Some Challenging Questions For a Challenger of Our Faith [Re: David Koot]
A_G_Brito Moderator Offline


Registered: 04/28/07
Posts: 127
Okay, brother, the fact is that we have discussed along the articles on the Ratzlaff debate most of these things.

Like what you say of the Confessions of Faith, I never said that either they or the SDA's teach the law as a source of salvation.

Thanks to God we have clearly defined in our official confessional document the topics 9, 10 and 18 that make clear our position, which matches that of the Protestant-Evangelical historical confessions of faith regarding the question of law and grace.

So, where the contetion is regarding that? The problem is the misinformation of what are our real teachings and sentiments.

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