Glad ... You make some good points. God can not sin for sin is separation from God. So God cannot be seperated from Himself.!! Therefore ... He can't sin.

Hmmmmmm.....If Jesus is God, then did not God separate Himself in the form of Jesus? Therefore, God did separate Himself, from Hisself....Interesting thoughts, for as I recall, Jesus 'was made sin for oursakes'....

By logical extension, God could sin...but we understand that He did not sin...therefore, our understanding of sin is wrong....Or at least, this instance of sin...

No God cannot "Sin".... He made up the rules and 'could' change them anytime "He" wished to. Sin is something that relates to created being ie: man/angels/created beings on other planets and their relationship to God. Whatever the three entities of the Godhead do they cannot sin against themselves. Jesus could have when he took on humanity but that was something uniquely different. That part of the "mystery of Godliness we may 'never' undertand.

OK Neil ... with what you have said ... I am now really confused. I fear that I don't know anything. You have made some good points. Where to go with it ... I just don't know. What does "he was made sin for us" mean?

Jesus was both fully God and fully man. Jesus had two wills, two minds, two natures-- all in single individual. He was not two people in one body. What Jesus did, God experienced. It was not God who was hungry or tired or tempted, but God experienced those things as the man Jesus Christ experienced them. Just so, the human Jesus died, but in that death, although God did not die, God experienced what humans experience when we face death and when we die.

Jesus was "made sin for us" in the sense that Jesus Christ became a real human being and was treated by the Father just exactly as if He had personally committed all the sins ever committed in human history so that we may be treated as if we are as righteous as Christ Himself. He truly bore our sins. He was condemned as a sinner in our place so that we can become the righteousness of God in union with Christ. Christ was no make-believe man or make-believer sinner; and neither do we become the make-believe righteousness of God in union with Jesus Christ through faith.

Jesus was made sin for us............. He was able to divide his divinity and his humanity. He did not SIN....but.....with His human nature he could have separated himself from the rest of the Godhead.......like we do when we 'sin'. But.....He did not.

Redwood, don't be confused. Sin is NOT separation from God. We must go to Bible to find that definition.

1 John 3:4 Whosoever committeth sin transgresseth also the law: for sin is the transgression of the law.

Separation from God is a result of sin, not sin in itself. The concept of God sinning is meaningless because God is the creator of the law. To put it into human perspective... we paint pictures... right? If we did not like the picture we painted do we have right to erase it? What it we painted a perfect picture and we come back in the morning and the colors just bled and mushed into some abstract ugliness? Is it painter's fault? Is it wrong for him to discard the picture? Does picture have right do deny the author his creative freedom to modify it or to discard it if it does not match the proportion that he intended it to be?

I believe that the fact that we are alive and that God does not barge into our lives bossing us around should tell us something. He has enough respect for us to make our own choices and decide for ourselves. I don't know exactly as to why he wiped the world to give it a fresh start, yet I believe it was serious enough for him to do that to salvage the painting. He could have just wiped everything off and started from scratch and without nobody questioning, and then we would not even have chance to sit here and ask why :).


Chris,


I totally understand where you are coming from. There are numerous questions that I would like God too, and since I'm not God I could only speculate on the answers. Some of those would definitely be

1) If Adam and Eve were like children then why didn't you stop them from touching THE stove like any loving parent would? I understand that love can be found through choice, but guidance should be a part of it. Why did you let vicious dogs go in the sandbox where children where playing? Would any loving parent prevent that? I understand the concept of proving Satan wrong, but what are the costs? Millions of people who are deceived....

2) Why are there contradictions in God's reasoning when giving the law? Such as

... though shall not kill - stone sabbath breakers - kill everyone... including women and children of infidel nations


3) Why would you overlook David's polygamy... as he had many wives, yet make it a big deal when he slept with Bathsheba? Wouldn't polygamous lifestyle be considered as adultery? Does it really matter what cultural norms where back then? I understand the difference, yet in a way having multiple wives is very similar and may have created attitude of infidelity.

2 Samuel 12:7-8 "And Nathan said to David, Thou art the man. Thus saith the LORD God of Israel, I anointed thee king over Israel, and I delivered thee out of the hand of Saul; And I gave thee thy master's house, and thy master s wives into thy bosom, and gave thee the house of Israel and of Judah; and if that had been too little, I would moreover have given unto thee such and such things."

Notice that it states that God gave David Saul's wives. These were NOT only for political ties.



I could go on, but the point it that there are many unanswered questions and there will always be. Essentially we know very little. Our collective knowledge is only a spec of universal one. I pray that some day we will have the answers. But I think God left plenty of things behind to let us know that He means not harm to us and that He respects our decisions and treats us like adults, even though we may act like children. Looking at children I learn LOTS about myself. When we take away things that will harm them and they cry I think they view us as unfair too. But we have knowledge that is very hard for them to grasp at a time. As they grow up they appreciate what we have done a bit more

I think this is a very interesting subject that i have been struggling with for quite some times now. These are my views:
The battle between good and evil is about showing that the law of God is good. I agree that Satan is wrong and God is good on this matter. However, in the process i ve found out that God isn t good either. Why order to kill women and children?why killing the loved ones of Job to teach a lesson?The bible states this matter terribly cruel; his loved ones died BUT God was brilliant so he replaced em with other people. How would you feel if God killed your wife and said " well because you stayed loyal, here you ll have a new wife". And why is it that Jesus doesn t do anything to stop some of the sufferings in the world by working through his people?There are plenty of men and women out there that are willing to give up their lives for the lord. I cannot stand understand all of these questions. The only answer i can think of, is that God isn t as great as everybody says he is. Maybe he is selfish and wishes to receive worship. I never follow a God because of his might, that is like becoming friends with the most powerfull men because of their power. As a child i always thought that God cared about every person as much as he did about me and that all of his ways are just. However i can never think of any justification of so many questions. I am glad God doesn t gonna fry me eternally, but he probably isn t going to like what i am saying. I cannot help it, in my view God is a selfish dictator instead of a loving father. Something is blocking my mind so i cannot write out all of my thoughts except that i am truly convinced that God is not just. If i were God i would have done it wayyyyyy better. Everybody who would suffer and came to me, i would give them direct assistence through angelic agencies. I would use other means. It is like we are just object for God, i refuse to live under such a dictatorship. I am glad to go to hell because heaven would be an eternal hell for me. I sacrifice my soul for the sake of fallen victims of the human race who never really had a chance to know God. It is sad for God, because the only people that will be in heaven are those that unconditionally accept all of his ways. I feel so much anger, i cannot help it.....Watch my words those of who are going to heaven...Someday there will be a day when you discover that God is not great at all and then there will be a next order of beings to replace you. I am mentally ill so i hope i ve not offended anyone. sorry for talking like this, can t help expressing my anger.

I don't think you have offended anybody. I think all of us have thought pretty much the same things. At least I have when reading the OT. But I've thought that their had to be some answer's that we haven't looked at. As far as Job is concerned its always been my understanding that its not God that's doing all that to Job. Its God allowing satan to do all. Than I look at what's going on in the world and see that satan is the one that's doing not God. I hope this helps a little. Sometimes its hard to say exactly what's on the mind correctly in a forum setting. When be face to face would be easier.

pkrause

I don't know the answers to all your questions, and I admit I have shared many of your thoughts at different times of my life. Frankly, I believe part of the purpose of this great controversy is for beings all over the universe to be free to ask those types of questions. (A good example of how God's approach differs from Satan's.)

If God intervened to stop suffering in the world, then we and the other beings in the universe would not get the full picture of where sin leads. We are the guinea pigs, and this world is a stage. It's not all about us and our comfort! Yes, God WANTS to save us and has provided a way to do so. But I believe it is important for the record to show the true horror of sin to all the universe.

While I understand your feelings very well, if you think about it, it really does sound childish to say how much better we would do things if we were God. Only God has the full picture, and we truly have no clue. It's like the 3-yr-old spouting off to his parents that if he were in charge, he would make sure the cookie jar was always full. I can imagine God smiling and saying, "OK, sweetie, when you are a big boy and omnipotent and omniscient and omnipresent, then you can do whatever you want."

I too wonder about the many times when God's ways seem harsh to us, but we have to realize that He was speaking to people in language they could understand. In a barbaric culture, such things might not have seemed as harsh as they do to us today. At other times, He needed to do some re-training, and the people had to know that He was serious. I agree with you - I would not have handled some situations as God did. But that does not mean that God was wrong. And if we think about it for very long, we have to realize that most of the time God is very patient with us, and maybe He is trying to teach us to be patient with others and patient in our suffering.

You are not alone - one of the biggest things we all struggle with is trusting God. We think we know better. Why we think that is beyond comprehension, but we all do it daily. God has a lot of work to do to get us ready for eternal life, but He is willing to do it because He loves us. Satan's goals and feelings for us are quite different. Yes, those who are in heaven will accept God's ways unconditionally, but it is a free choice they make, because they have learned to trust Him and not themselves.

May I suggest something that works for me? Whenever I start feeling angry at God for the injustice I see, I try to focus on His great sacrifice for humanity. The more I really think and ponder about that, the more my anger dissolves. I realize how much God loves us. If he wanted robots, He would have made robots. But He wants beings who desire to have a meaningful relationship with Him. We spit on Him every day, and yet He is willing to do whatever it takes to save us, if we let Him. And that makes me trust Him more.