Well Lord i ll give you some tough ones i hope you can answer:

1. Jesus said that the standards whereby you will be judged will be decided by the way a person judge others. Ellen White told others to be perfectly obedient, to abstain from certain foods etc etc. But she made all the human mistakes a normal person makes. She ate meat etc etc. This seems quite hypocritical. According to her own standards should she go to hell?if no, why not?

2. Ellen White warned about people who would try to change her messages. How do I explain people that Ellen White received visions from God while she used other sources? I know that plagiarism at that time was a normal thing to do, but shouldn t she foresaw that that would become a problem? Do you mind if i would only hold on to the big issues in adventism and told people to say that a lot of what Ellen White wrote were just personal feelings. I hate the idea of a pope, Jesus is the only shepherd.

3. Do you think that by saying what i am thinking right now i am a hypocrit as well? I never claimed to be a true prophet and i will never say that i am perfect, or ever become perfect. My intentions are clearly, to lead people into the whole truth. Something that can only be done if the holy spirit presents me the truth.

4. Why are you always receiving 7 s as a mark from me and never 10s? I mean you did some bad things when you ordered Isreal to kill women and children, but you compensate it with the beautiful things you create and the love that was manifested at the cross.

5. wouldn t it be a lot easier to save people if you gave some people the gift of healing?The whole world would lay at your feet of course not because they loved you but because they see personal profit in it.

6. I hate life, am i unthankfull?

7. In your judgement do you also reveal all of the chemical reactions and their influence on ones behaviour as well as other analyses?

8. How come, i always come up with stupid questions like these? i am angry and i don t know why.

I will try to answer this in a number of ways Seeker.

One is that scripture is clear ... we are not saved by what we eat or drink.

Another is ... Are you sure that she ate meat? If you look at what she said below ... it would not condemn her to hell ... but it would discount her testimony.

Let me ask you this. What will you have that you don't have now if you have the answers to your questions?

Dear friends

We have the ones especialized in the EGW ministry who are used to address all this kinds of objections. Why don't you resort to the EGW Estate? I think the address can be found in the official SDA webpage, http://www.adventist.org

I think they will gladly answer all these questions.

It would be much more fun to talk about it here. After all ... that IS why we come here. To TALK.

Ellen white never pretended to be perfect. She was a 17 yr old girl when God gave her a message from Him. She was a Christian at the time, but much about health that the world knows now was not known then. It was a gradual process for her to learn about health God gave her a message regarding diet and other health related issues and it was not easy for her to accept at the time. In fact she had a hard time to give up meat. She did however and I dont beleive she was eating meat at all in the last part of her life. Ellen White is not the one we need to follow. Jesus is, However it is for our best good that God gave us the knowledge we have through her. Almost everything that she wrote about diet is now general knowledge. In fact, most of the medical profession will agree with the fact that we would be much better off eating
fruits, veg. whole grains and nuts and not red meat or any meat at all. It has also become widely known that meat eating contributes to cancer and heart disease deaths. I just read some about that on a
news page.

Do you happen to know the date of that? The reason is that according to her own words ... the words of someone eating meat should not listened to because they would not be a fit messenger.

I would say to you Truthseeker, that if you really want to find the truth and I beleive you do, read the Bible and pray and ask the Lord to show you the truth. Only you can know whether or not you are really seeking Gods truth. Dont worry about what
you see others doing. Dont compare yourself with others. Jesus is our only example. EGW is not our example. I beleive that what she wrote is from God. I dont worry about whether she wrote what others wrote. Others wrote all kinds of things, she still had to choose what to write. Those who are truly looking for truth will be lead to it by God who loves everyone and knows their hearts. God bless you.

Seeker, as someone who has wasted many years concentrating on the negatives in life, I can assure you that it is far better to focus on the good things. Philipians 4:4-8;13 tells us to be thankful in all situations and to meditate on good things. For a long time, I could not understand how I could be happy when bad things happen. Then I realized that God is in control. He allows bad things to happen for good reasons. We may not understand the reasons at the time, but they are there. This is why we should rejoice no matter what we are going through. God is holding our hands. This is why we should begin our prayers during times of strife with "Lord I praise your Name because I know you are in control of this situation and You have my best interests in mind." This simple prayer will ease your mind and allow you to focus so you can, with Jesus' strength, get through the all trials. I will pray for you, my friend in Christ for I know the demon of depression. I don't know what your situation is, but pain is pain. I sense you are a deep thinker as I am. But I caution you my friend, if you think on negative things without balancing your thoughts with Positive ones, you will go insane. So take all your cares and thoughts and lay them at the feet of Jesus. He was tempted in all ways we are so He will understand. Keep the faith. Seek His Presence each and every day when you wake up and He will guide you. Our denomination is flawed but it holds the all the Truths from God's Holy Word. Always seek out the good in all things and all people. Contact me anytime if you want to chat. I will not judge..only listen. God Bless.
digvid7@yahoo.com

Redwood, Here is a quote to answer your question regarding EGW and meat eating. "But since the Lord presented to me ,in June, 1863, the subject of meat eating in relation to health, I have left the use of meat. For a while it was rather difficult to bring my appetite to bread, for which, formerly, I have had but little relish. But by perserving. I have been able to do this. I have lived for nearly one year without meat." Written in August 1864. Do you agree that truth is progressive? This was entirely new truth to people in that time.

True. And we know that Jesus ate both fish and lamb, at least...

Graeme

I don't think EGW says that no one will be saved if they eat meat. However, read about how the Jews were to prepare the meat they ate. I doubt most would be interested in eating it today if it is prepared the kosher way. Other than the "unclean" meats, eating meat is mainly a major health issue.
Meat is far more diseased today than it was in Jesus time. The truth is that most of these things are widely known and it is simply a matter of what people make a priority in their lives.
If most of us spent half as much time really praying that God will show us the truth regarding what He desires for our lives
and not so much time looking for ways to defend our desires
we would be much happier.

Counsels on Diet and Foods, p.380-381"Among this who are waiting for the coming of the Lord, meat eating will eventually be done away;flesh will cease to be a part of their diet. We should ever keep this end in view, and endeavor to work steadily toward it. I cannot think that in the practice of flesh eating we are in harmony with the light which God has been pleased to give us...................."

The following would contradict this progressive idea ... So, I still need a date that she stopped eating meat.















"The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world." C.D. 461



Still needing a date to go by when she stopped eating meat.

On 3ABN there is a program called "the keepers of the flame" and they showed on one of the segments that EGW did have a bit of a problem giving up meat.

pkrause

I think I've seen that show also.

But it didn't stop her from condemning it ...

Thank you Redwood, I am glad that you are giving a fair representation of the facts. I believe that in many groups of minorities there are people who refuse to open themselves for criticism. To me, Ellen White is like a wall to Christ because no matter how hard i ll try i ll never succeed in following Ellen perfectly. Furthermore i am not a robot but a free thinker. Following statements are mind boggling:

"There is one straight chain of truth without one heretical
sentence in that which I have written."

How can you say such a thing when you borrow from other writers if those writers were not directed by God and were therefore very likely to make some mistakes.

Compare this one:
Christian Experience of W. E. Foy
“I then see countless millions of shining ones coming with cards held in their hands. These shining ones became our guides. The cards, they bore shone above the brightness of the sun; and they placed them in our hands but the names of them I could not read.

Christian Experience of E.G.W. 1846
“‘All the angels that are commissioned to visit the earth hold a golden card which they present to the angels at the gates of the city as we pass in and out. Evangelism, p. 39

This guy Foy was also a prophet in her time. Does anyone have information of who he is??He remains unknown but i think it is very interesting to find out what he stood for.

I am not trying to discredit Ellen White and i think it is very important to have pillars of truths in deceptive times like these, but i have to be critical and open for all explanations.

Depend on the Bible ... Seeker.

If you don't appreciate Ellen White as a commentator of the Bible ... then find another commentator or just rely solely on the Bible.

There are many authors that I like to quote such as Phillip Yancey and Tim Hansel . They aren't SDAs and I do not promote all of their beliefs ... but that does not mean that I should not quote them. I am sure EGW was the same. She was inspired to quote or use some authors. It does not mean that she endorsed all that they said or the life they lived.

The same should be true with Ellen White. We should not believe in all she said. Neither should we look at the life she lived. Both are faulty. We can be blessed by the good she said and throw out the rest.

My understanding was that it was not a mistake. She purposely ate meat when other good food wasn't available.

Also she nor the bible has ever said it was a sin to eat meat. We will not be judged on whether we eat meat or not but on our attitude towards health reform.

Simply not the case. She ate meat most of her life and it wasn't because other food was not avaliable. Sitting down to Christmas dinner ... meat was what she desired. See the above quotes.

You can't be a serious student of Ellen White and declare that meat eating is not a sin. She says in the quote above that you can't have your prayers answered if you eat meat. She says that it has a harmful affect on the soul. She says that before we can stand before God ... we will have to have victory over this appetite. All that to me says it is SIN.




She indicates meat eating causes multiple diseases and that to be sick is a sin. Not hard to connect the dots.

The principle: "To him that knoweth to do good and doeth it not, to him it is sin."

And, "Whatsoever is not of faith is sin."

God judges us according to our light. If I study and come to the conclusion that God's will is for me to stop all eating of animal flesh or animal products, but then I keep on eating it, then it would certainly be sin for me. But God doesn't condemn those who eat meat either because there's no other way to gain the nutrients their bodies need or because they know nothing about "health reform." There was a while when Ellen White thought Pig's meat was healthy. God obviously did not hold Ellen White responsible for the sin of eating it when she was unaware that it was wrong to do so. God treats intentional sin differently than he treats sins done in ignorance. He obviously holds SDAs responsible in a way He does not hold the average man in the street who has never heard of health reform or of what the Bible teaches on the subject.

Regards,
"John 3: 17"

Since Ellen White ate meat most all her life ... I am sure she was very busy repenting.

Aside from what Ellen White might have said and done with meat. I don't believe eating it is a sin. I also don't feel that meat eating is a deal breaker with God on who will or won't atain salvation. That is our free gift to accept or reject. There are no conditions placed on that free gift.

Let us repent the real sins of our lives and not worry about the things we eat.

There are many people on this planet who must eat "meat" to survive. Do a little searching and you will find that EGW would not condemn those people. Sin? Not likely

mel

The heath message is about doing what it takes to be healthier..

Thank you all for your contributions. I think that these small issues are very important because these little issues are the main reasons that non adventists believe we are legalistic. Personally i think it would be better if ellen nuanced some of her issues by presenting them as precepts rather than rules. I hate these small issues because they are always tied to salvation according to ellen whereas the bible warns against people that place burdens on other people in the name of Christ unnecessarily. Nowadays scientific research revealed that there is a strong connection between eating meat and getting cancer. My conclusion is that ellen white was right about the danger of meat, but that this should not be tied to salvation. But if i say this, according to ellen white i am working for the devil because i am changing her message. I still believe we should approach this functionally. And i also believe ellen is a hypocryte on this issue. Is it really so hard to give up eating meat? Well we all have our personal struggles. I am struggling with testosteron and think this is much harder because we were somehow made to multiply. Anyway..enough said.

Oh. I think this is clearly true. But I would also point out that if we view her correctly ... it should not matter.

And BTW ... we are all hypocrites.

"we are all hypocrites"
Definitely true! Especially me!

You are taking her way out of context Red. She never said it was a sin nor did she condemn. She simply said you cant have your prayers answered if you are going against nature. She never said it was a sin dude - period.

You can't be a serious student of EGW and take her out of context.

 Quote:

Since Ellen White ate meat most all her life ... I am sure she was very busy repenting

Perhaps you meant it in the context that more than half of her life was over, but if you meant it in that Ellen White did not put into practice what she taught on health reform -- here are the statements from Counsels on Diet and Foods. Ellen White gave up meat eating as soon as God gave her the Health Message vision, and there was no need to repent over something that she did not know!

It was on June 6, 1863 that the first Health Reform vision was given. In 1864 she wrote,

"But since the Lord presented before me, in June, 1863, the subject of meat eating in relation to health, I have left the use of meat...I have lived for nearly a year without meat...I have applied myself to writing the most of the time above a year. For eight months have been confined closely to writing... Our plain food, eaten twice a day, is enjoyed with a keen relish. We have no meat, cake or any rich food upon our table." CDF pp 482, 483.

And a word from James White in 1870, "While tobacco, tea and coffee may be left at once, one at a time, however, b y those who are so unfortunate as to be slaves to all, changes in diet should be made carefully, one at a time. And while she would say this to those who are in danger of making changes too rapidly, she would also say to the tardy, Be sure and not forget to change. The plainest facts possibly deman a change from the common habits of life, but let them not be made so fast as to injure the health and constitution." CDF p. 495, Appendix II.
Review and Herald Nov. 8, 1870.

God bless

Beryl

Hmmmmmm ???















"The light God has given on health reform is for our salvation and the salvation of the world." C.D. 461




I can get more for you. But it would hardly seem necessary. And this was even done at Christmas dinner.

Right on MM. There is a persistent tone of mockery from this individual, and mockery doesn't get high marks in the Word.

Thanks,


oG

I stand behind my interpretation. Just the plain facts.

But I promise not to characterize your interpretation as "mockery". And I promise not to say that your belief doesn't get high marks with God. That is my commitment to you Olger.

God Bless you. Honestly, I think he will bless you despite your attacks on me. And He will bless you despite your differing belief of scripture and Ellen White. Love is far more important than knowledge my friend.

That quote in context:

Thank you for this entire quote Amelia. I think that it provides a good contrast between what you have stated below and what Ellen White states. She states not watching what we eat is a sin. You have stated otherwise at least from how I read your statement below ...



Please correct me if I am wrong in my interpretation of what you have said and what Ellen White has said. From how I read her ... the Health Message remains and is alive and well.

What book are you getting your quotes out of Red - surely you are not looking these up yourself. Books abound that take EGW out of context and are dedicated to making her out to be a liar.

EGW always said that when she was away from home or visiting others homes who ate meat she would always eat what was placed before her as the scripture states - she never complained. The oysters was a development that would come later in the churches fuller understanding of the health message. The fish for the workmen were given by a local market that had an oversupply and she regularly said that no food should be wasted no matter what sort it was. She even made chicken broth for a sick woman once when she did not eat chicken herself.

Another thing was that sometimes people would be staying at her house who did not take well to the vegetarian diet and she regularly provided for their needs but she didn't eat those things herself.

You have aproblem dude if you are a baptised SDA. If EGW has lied or deceived or been a hypocryte then she is no prophet period. If she is no prophet then all her visions were false - "if a prophet comes to you and says tomorrow this shall happen and the thing does not come to pass, I have not sent him says the Lord" - OT.

I have no issues with EGW and therefore have no dilemma with her contradicting, plagerising or whatever - context dude. You however will run into problems and the question will need to be asked - "is the SDA church founded on lies"? EGW was quite instrumental in guiding the church to wherte it is today. This is quite serious and don't come at the old -" but it's the closest I can find to the truth" line either.

Why are you a member if you have serious issues with EGW - "baptismal vow" - I believe in the Gift of Prophecy and the ministry of EGW???????

Adding on to what I have already posted, and to answer to some extent the suggestions of EGW's apparent inconsistencies, I would like to post, in two parts, a much longer reply that I sent to a C/A member several years ago, which cleared up some wrong thinking at that time.

Here is part 1.

You have raised things that are, indeed, legitimate concerns, and my answer is not intended in any way to criticise the fact that you have raised this matter, but to bring to you the results of research by minds much more learned than mine.

When we study the life of EGW, we find a growth in her own knowledge of Jesus and the salvation that He offers. We find evidence of God’s gentle leading as the group studied and prayed together.

Perhaps the spiritual journey of EGW can best be seen in the compilation and writing of the Conflict of the Ages series in contrast with the Testimonies, which were written very early in her experience.

Early Adventists had come from a Methodist background, and did not believe in the Trinity. Let me quote from Alden Thompson , Professor of Old Testament Studies at the Walla Walla College. “When linked with a strong free will impulse in the Arminian-Wesleyan tradition, as it was in Ellen White’s case, non-trinitarian theology can be deadly, and it was very nearly so for Ellen White. In short, a high and holy deity is one step further removed from the realm of struggling humanity. When viewed from the perspective of such a theology, Jesus is still the Father’s representative, but the God He represents is a severe one. Jesus cannot demonstrate the love of a God who empties himself and takes the form of a servant, for Jesus is only someone sent from God, not God incarnate.

“In a sense, Ellen White and many of her early Adventist contemporaries, had the worst of both worlds – Calvin’s sovereign and holy God – but a God who comes with an Arminian-Wesleyan free-will agenda. The result is a painful and self-denying asceticism, a desperate grasping after perfection in order to satisfy the nearly impossible claims of a distant and austere deity….Early in her experience, Ellen White had neither the security granted by a gracious sovereign, nor the attractiveness of an eager and loving Father.

“By the 1890s, however, she was joyfully basking in the goodness of a gracious God. And the movement from fear to joy can be traced in her writings….”

This is just part of the article which can be found at http://homepages.wwc.edu


Beryl

This is Part 2 of the letter:-

It was with this new-found experience of the goodness of a gracious God that EGW wrote books such as “Desire of Ages” (which stated unequivocally “In Christ is life, original, unborrowed, underived” (DA 530), and “Steps to Christ”, where the emphasis is on what Christ does in order to bring us to Him. These, and other books and articles written around that time have an emphasis on Righteousness by Faith in Jesus Christ alone.

As we study the Bible, we find that prophets are human, too. We can find a number of instances (Jonah, for example) where God needed to deal with the thinking of the prophet. Paul struggled (Romans 7:14-25) – there is no perfect human being on this earth, and God uses imperfect human beings to communicate to other imperfect human beings.

No doubt you have experienced the fact that when the “legalists” try to prove that our works have a lot to do with salvation, they do not begin quoting Desire of Ages or any of those later books, but they can rattle off quote after quote (often taken out of context) from the Testimonies – precisely the books that were written in the early years.

Looking also at the times in which the Testimonies were written, we find that, as always when new truths are discovered, there are those who go off into tangents. Many of the Testimonies were written specifically to counteract fanaticism which was rife at that time. Those who are the most adept at quoting the Testimonies are very often the last to look at the context in which they were written – and the last, also, to apply any of them to themselves!

This has ended up as one of those long, long posts, but I couldn’t really keep it much shorter.

God bless,

Beryl

I have posted these two parts of a letter in the hope that you will see how the writings of Ellen White changed over the years -- not that she had changed her mind, but that, as more and more truth was revealed to her by God, so her personal understanding grew . This is the way that God imparts knowedge to His people. We find it in the Bible as we read the stories of the characters portrayed.

By taking single verses of the Bible out of context, almost anything can be proved, and the same goes with the writings of Ellen White. I have a personal rule about any quotes -- go back to the original (if available) and check out the context.

Another thing to take into account is that Ellen White refused to be the conscience of any one else, and no member of her household was obliged to follow her eating habits.

I will deal with other things at another time.

Beryl

Sounds quite reasonable Beryl but can you show any place where there was ever an explanation given for her change? Is there any place where she ever said "I was wrong"?

Did she ever retract any "errors" that were made earlier?

That would seem to be what she should have done to be consistent wouldn't it? To my knowledge there was never an attempt to set the record straight. Had she done so we would not be faced with the problems we have today.

mel

Just to clarify Male Man ...

I have no problem with our church ... all the fundamental beliefs .... and I have NO problem with Ellen White.

However ... it appears to me that you and some like you ... DO.