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#162724 - 03/24/08 04:15 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7372
Loc: CA
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[quote=John317] And it shall be that from one New Moon to another New Moon and from one Sabbath to another Sabbath, all flesh shall come to worship before Me, says the Lord" (Is. 66: 22. 23). ROBERT: This is future and it doesn't negate what is stated in the moral law. Clearly the moral law links rest (not worship) to God's perfect creation. Your interpretation seems to me to be highly legalistic here. You're going by the "letter of the law" rather than by the spirit of the law. Allow the Holy Spirit to speak through the rest of the Scriptures. Amplified, The Bible In Basic English, God's Word, Good News Bible, New Living Translation, Contemporary English Version, I can make up my own Bible too.... The idea of worship is clearly implied in Lev. 23: 3. What do you believe holy assembly or meeting [ Miqrae] is? JOHN3:17-- Ellen White wrote... I thought you believed in her writings; at least you have often quoted her. You so often quote Jack Sequeira. He is certainly no authority. There seems to be a double standard here. Perhaps you only use her and reject what she says when you do not find it agreeable to you. Anyway, back to a solid translation:
8 “Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. 9 “Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a sabbath of the Lord your God; in it you shall not do any work, you or your son or your daughter, your male or your female servant or your cattle or your sojourner who stays with you. 11 “For in six days the Lord made the heavens and the earth, the sea and all that is in them, and rested on the seventh day; therefore the Lord blessed the sabbath day and made it holy. [The New American Standard Bible] What does it mean to say that God "blessed the seventh day"? Blessed it to what end? What is the significance of the Sabbath? What is it made for? The description of it as having been "blessed" signifies that God made it for some kind of appointment. It means that God has an appointment with people, to meet with them. That is implied very clearly in the whole idea of blessing the day. We need to read the Sabbath commandment in the context of the other nine commandments, such as the second. As I said before, all of the moral law has to do with the worship of God. Read the Sabbath commandment, also, in the context of many other Bible verses, particularly Jesus' words. Otherwise your reading and understanding of it is likely to be legalistic.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#162726 - 03/24/08 04:34 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7372
Loc: CA
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In light of the NT Sabbath keeping becomes the seal of righteousness by faith. Jesus and the apostles did not reveal something about the Sabbath-- i.e., its being the seal of the righteousness by faith--that was not true before the time of Christ. The only reason for NT Sabbath observance is found in Hebrews chapter 4. Other than that there's no clear connection.... Paul, in Hebrews 4, links the Sabbath to a sign of "entering His rest" (the gospel). That's the only legitimate reason.... A while ago, you said that Isaiah 66: 22, 23 does not negate the Sabbath commandment in Ex. 20, and I agree. They both are true. It is the same with Hebrew 4. It does not negate Ex. 20. The Sabbath of the NT and the OT is one and the same Sabbath. It did not change before the New Covenant was ratified. We keep the Sabbath because of God's creation and God's redemptive act in Jesus Christ. It is the same God acting on behalf of mankind. He first created us before he died for us, but both his creation and redemption have to do with His giving us life.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#162736 - 03/24/08 11:12 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14457
Loc: Columbia, SC
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We keep the Sabbath because of God's creation and God's redemptive act in Jesus Christ. Again, the only legitimate reason is redemptive. God's creation was ruined by the fall and therefore your resting in it makes no sense.....
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"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#162737 - 03/24/08 11:18 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14457
Loc: Columbia, SC
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When I read my Bible and compare it with Jack's understanding I come up with a clearer more precise picture.....Besides, Ellen made the following statements: "We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light [truth] that is yet to come to us." 1] Define a glimmer: "A faint, unsteady light; feeble, scattered rays of light; also, a gleam." 2] Notice that "that is yet to come" is in the future tense! How do I read her quote? We have only faint, feeble, scattered rays of truth compared to that, which is yet to come to us. Here's another: "We [again, EGW is included] have many lessons to learn, and many, many to unlearn. God and heaven alone are infallible. Those who think that they will never have to give up a cherished view, never have occasion to change an opinion, will be disappointed."
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"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#162738 - 03/24/08 11:22 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14457
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Your interpretation seems to me to be highly legalistic here. You're going by the "letter of the law" rather than by the spirit of the law. Allow the Holy Spirit to speak through the rest of the Scriptures. And you are the Spirit? I think not! Legalistic? No! You are the one that is searching the Bible to "add" more. You are not content with just resting - you want to make church attendance (worship) a requirement for heaven. That's legalism.
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#162739 - 03/24/08 11:25 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: Robert]
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Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7372
Loc: CA
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We keep the Sabbath because of God's creation and God's redemptive act in Jesus Christ. Again, the only legitimate reason is redemptive. God's creation was ruined by the fall and therefore your resting in it makes no sense..... Do you mean it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God commands it to be kept? Are you saying it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God blessed the seventh day and said to remember to keep it holy? Are you going to tell God, "You've commanded us to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but that makes no sense to me, and therefore I'm not going to do that"? Since when do we obey God only when it makes perfect sense to us? Is that real obedience?
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#162742 - 03/24/08 11:48 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14457
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Jack is right on the money: "Even today, when the Sabbath/Sunday issue comes up we tend to make it an issue between Sabbath-keeping Christians, i.e., us, versus Sunday-keeping Christian, i.e., them. But is this the real issue? Let’s be honest: the majority of believers who will make it to heaven will have probably been Sunday keeping Christians, since the change took place about 200 A.D."
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"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#162743 - 03/24/08 11:55 AM
Re: 'Deception': Christians War Over Worship Day
[Re: John317]
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Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 14457
Loc: Columbia, SC
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Do you mean it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God commands it to be kept? God's not talking to me....I can only understand God through the Bible. My Bible doesn't demand blind obedience.... Are you saying it's not a legitimate reason if you keep the Sabbath because God blessed the seventh day and said to remember to keep it holy? What does that mean? See...you need to ask questions and not just blindly follow.... Are you going to tell God, "You've commanded us to keep the Sabbath as a day of rest, but that makes no sense to me, and therefore I'm not going to do that"? I want to know the reason! God says, "let us reason together...." Since when do we obey God only when it makes perfect sense to us? Is that real obedience? When you just obey to obey that's legalism. You are afraid of God...it's fear based, which is unbelief!
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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