Thanks praise Him .

I would like to comment on what you said below ...



Amen. This brings us to Ellen's statement that there is NO excuse for sin.



And with this I fully agree. But it is a shame that we willfully decide not to get close to God and by this deliberate choice ... we sin.

Thank you for pointing this out to us. And Welcome.

And what do you think of this statement ....

Lives of John and Judas Contrasted

The world passeth away, and the lust thereof: but he that doeth the
will of God abideth for ever. 1 John 2:17

John and his fellow disciples were in a school in which Christ was
teacher. . . . John treasured every lesson and constantly sought to
bring his life into harmony with the Divine Pattern. The lessons of
Jesus, setting forth meekness, humility, and love as essential to growth
in grace and a fitness for his work, were of the highest value to John.
. . .

An instructive lesson may be drawn from the striking contrast
between the character of John and that of Judas. John was a living
illustration of sanctification. On the other hand, Judas possessed a
form of godliness, while his character was more satanic than divine. He
professed to be a disciple of Christ, but in words and in works denied
Him.

Judas had the same precious opportunities as had John to study and
to imitate the Pattern. He listened to the lessons of Christ, and his
character might have been transformed by divine grace. But while John
was earnestly warring against his own faults and seeking to assimilate
to Christ, Judas was violating his conscience, yielding to temptation,
and fastening upon himself habits of dishonesty that would transform him
into the image of Satan.

These two disciples represent the Christian world. All profess to
be Christ's followers; but while one class walk in humility and
meekness, learning of Jesus, the other show that they are not doers of
the Word, but hearers only. One class are sanctified through the truth;
the other know nothing of the transforming power of divine grace. The
former are daily dying to self, and are overcoming sin. The latter are
indulging their own lusts, and becoming the servants of Satan.

>From My Life Today - Page 258

Both [John the Beloved and Judas] were closely associated with Jesus and were privileged to listen to His teaching. Each possessed serious defects of character; and each had access to the divine grace that transforms character. But while one in humility was learning of Jesus, the other revealed that he was not a doer of the word, but a hearer only. One, daily dying to self and overcoming sin, was sanctified through the truth; the other, resisting the transforming power of grace and indulging selfish desires, was brought into bondage to Satan.

Such transformation of character as is seen in the life of John is ever the result of communion with Christ. There may be marked defects in the character of an individual, yet when he becomes a true disciple of Christ, the power of divine grace transforms and sanctifies him. Beholding as in a glass the glory of the Lord, he is changed from glory to glory, until he is like Him whom he adores.

John was a teacher of holiness, and in his letters to the church he laid down unerring rules for the conduct of Christians. "Every man that hath this hope in him," he wrote, "purifieth himself, even as He is pure." "He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk, even as He walked." 1 John 3:3; 2:6. He taught that the Christian must be pure in heart and life. Never should he be satisfied with an empty profession. As God is holy in His sphere, so fallen man, through faith in Christ, is to be holy in his sphere.

"This is the will of God," the apostle Paul wrote, "even your sanctification." 1 Thessalonians 4:3. The sanctification of the church is God's object in all His dealings with His people. He has chosen them from eternity, that they might be holy. He gave His Son to die for them, that they might be sanctified through obedience to the truth, divested of all the littleness of self. From them Her requires a personal work, a personal surrender. God can be honored by those who profess to believe in Him, only as they are conformed to His image and controlled by His Spirit. Then, as witnesses for the Saviour, they may make known what divine grace has done for them. AA 558, 559

The apostle Paul had been caught up to the third heaven and had seen and heard things that could not be uttered, and yet his unassuming statement is: "Not as though I had already attained, either were already perfect: but I follow after." Philippians 3:12. Let the angels of heaven write of Paul's victories in fighting the good fight of faith. Let heaven rejoice in his steadfast tread heavenward, and that, keeping the prize in view, he counts every other consideration dross. Angels rejoice to tell his triumphs, but Paul makes no boast of his attainments. The attitude of Paul is the attitude that every follower of Christ should take as he urges his way onward in the strife for the immortal crown.

Let those who feel inclined to make a high profession of holiness look into the mirror of God's law. As they see its far-reaching claims, and understand its work as a discerner of the thoughts and intents of the heart, they will not boast of sinlessness. "If we," says John, not separating himself from his brethren, "say that we have no sin, we deceive ourselves, and the truth is not in us." "If we say that we have not sinned, we make Him a liar, and His word is not in us." "If we confess our sins, He is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness." 1 John 1:8, 10, 9.

There are those who profess holiness, who declare that they are wholly the Lord's, who claim a right to the promises of God, while refusing to render obedience to His commandments. These transgressors of the law claim everything that is promised to the children of God; but this is presumption on their part, for John tells us that true love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth, to make a profession of faith in Christ, to believe that Jesus is no impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments," John wrote, "is a liar, and the truth is not in him. But whoso keepeth His word, in him verily is the love of God perfected: hereby know we that we are in Him." "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him." 1 John 2:4, 5; 3:24.
John did not teach that salvation was to be earned by obedience; but that obedience was the fruit of faith and love. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins," he said, "and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in the heart, our feelings, our thoughts, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God. The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

There are many who, though striving to obey God's commandments, have little peace or joy. This lack in their experience is the result of a failure to exercise faith. They walk as it were in a salt land, a parched wilderness. They claim little, when they might claim much; for there is no limit to the promises of God. Such ones do not correctly represent the sanctification that comes through obedience to the truth. The Lord would have all His sons and daughters happy, peaceful, and obedient. Through the exercise of faith the believer comes into possession of these blessings. Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed.

Prayer is heaven's ordained means of success in the conflict with sin and the development of Christian character. The divine influences that come in answer to the prayer of faith will accomplish in the soul of the suppliant all for which he pleads. For the pardon of sin, for the Holy Spirit, for a Christlike temper, for wisdom and strength to do His work, for any gift He has promised, we may ask; and the promise is, "Ye shall receive."

It was in the mount with God that Moses beheld the pattern of that wonderful building that was to be the abiding place of His glory. It is in the mount with God--in the secret place of communion--that we are to contemplate His glorious ideal for humanity. In all ages, through the medium of communion with heaven, God has worked out His purpose for His children, by unfolding gradually to their minds the doctrines of grace. His manner of imparting truth is illustrated in the words, "His going forth is prepared as the morning." Hosea 6:3. He who places himself where God can enlighten him, advances, as it were, from the partial obscurity of dawn to the full radiance of noonday.

True sanctification means perfect love, perfect obedience, perfect conformity to the will of God. We are to be sanctified to God through obedience to the truth. Our conscience must be purged from dead works to serve the living God. We are not yet perfect; but it is our privilege to cut away from the entanglements of self and sin, and advance to perfection. Great possibilities, high and holy attainments, are placed within the reach of all.

The reason many in this age of the world make no greater advancement in the divine life is because they interpret the will of God to be just what they will to do. While following their own desires, they flatter themselves that they are conforming to God's will. These have no conflicts with self. There are others who for a time are successful in the struggle against their selfish desire for pleasure and ease. They are sincere and earnest, but grow weary of protracted effort, of daily death, of ceaseless turmoil. Indolence seems inviting, death to self repulsive; and they close their drowsy eyes and fall under the power of temptation instead of resisting it. AA 562-565

1) The emphasis is on Paul's victories and triumphs over sin and self in his steadfast tread heavenward.

2) Paul did not claim to be sinless or nor did he boast of his attainments.

3) We can obey the commandments of God, and many do obey, and many hearts are in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is NOT true, then, that no one can obey the commandments of God.

Neither is it true that no one's heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT OBEY GOD AND THAT OUR HEARTS CANNOT BE IN HARMONY WITH GOD'S LAW?

a) "True love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments";

Again, it is obvious from this statement that there are Christians who do obey all of God's commandments. Otherwise the above statement would mean that no one has true love for God.

b) Obedience is the fruit of faith and love;

It is clear then that there are those who do obey out of faith and love.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY OBEYS?

c) If we abide in Christ... our actions and thoughts, etc., will be in harmony with the will of God;

Obviously there are those whose actions and thoughts are in harmony with the will of God. Otherwise the statement means that no one abides in Christ.


WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE CAN HAVE THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF GOD?

d) The sanctified heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is obvious from this statement that there are those whose hearts are in harmony with God's law. Otherwise it is saying no one's heart is sanctified.

e) Sanctification comes through obedience to the truth;

Can anyone obey the truth? Obviously so, or it would be saying there is no such thing as sanctification.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY KNOWS THE TRUTH, MUCH LESS OBEYS IT?

Sure and certain promises for those who believe them and put them into practice:

f) "Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed;"

g) "The divine influences that come in answer to the prayer of faith will accomplish in the soul of the suppliant all for which he pleads;"

h) "Through faith, every deficiency of character may be supplied, every defilement cleansed, every fault corrected, every excellence developed."

Yes...if! The problem is threefold -i.e., you must be perfect in these three areas:

1] Perfect assurance of salvation.

2] Perfect knowledge of God's agape love.

3] Perfect surrender of the "flesh" to God's Spirit.

If you perfectly understand God's agape love and are perfectly walking in the Spirit, then yes, Christ could defeat all sin in your life. But in order to do this you must have the full assurance of salvation or your motive for your good works will be egocentric and sinful, i.e., your motive will be either for a reward or fear of punishment.

The Apostle John states that, "If we say we have no sin" we stand deceived (see 1 John 1:8). BTW, EGW doesn't teach that we can be sinless in performance. Here's her view:

-BC- AA
-TI- The Acts of the Apostles
-CN- 55
-CT- Transformed by Grace
-PR- 03
-PG- 560

Sanctification [spiritual growth] is not the work of a moment, an hour, a day, but of a lifetime. [i.e., your growth is over a lifetime] It is not gained by a happy flight of feeling, but is the result of constantly dying to sin ["walking in the Spirit"], and constantly living for Christ. Wrongs cannot be righted nor reformations wrought in the character by feeble, intermittent efforts. It is only by long, persevering effort, sore discipline, and stern conflict, that we shall overcome. [i.e., overcome the flesh] We know not one day how strong will be our conflict the next. So long as Satan reigns [and he's still alive], we shall have self to subdue, besetting sins to overcome [i.e., sins of repetition]; so long as life shall last [and sanctification is the work of a lifetime], there will be no stopping place, no point which we can reach and say, I have fully attained. [i.e., I have fully overcome the flesh and all sin]

John's partially right and partially wrong. He's right that there's no mention of the Spirit, but he is wrong that the man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit.

For example since I am a born again Christian I have God's Spirit living in me. Then why do I sin? Because I try to use my will power (my converted mind) against my sin nature instead of letting the Spirit have the fight. The Spirit is there, but I don't always surrender - i.e., give Him permission to take control of my nature. The man of Romans 7 is doing the same thing, but there's no condemnation for his or my failure. Why? By faith I stand perfect "in Christ" and the law can't touch me.

John's partially right and partially wrong. He's right that there's no mention of the Spirit, but he is wrong that the man of Romans 7 doesn't have the Spirit.

For example since I am a born again Christian I have God's Spirit living in me. Then why do I sin? Because I try to use my will power (my converted mind) against my sin nature instead of letting the Spirit have the fight. The Spirit is there, but I don't always surrender - i.e., give Him permission to take control of my nature. The man of Romans 7 is doing the same thing, but there's no condemnation for his or my failure. Why? By faith I stand perfect "in Christ" and the law can't touch me.[/quote]

The man of Romans 7 has been convicted of his sin, certainly. However, the Holy Spirit's working on our hearts does not necessarily result in justification or in having faith in Christ. Many people are convicted but reject that conviction and go on in their Christ-less lives. The Holy Spirit's conviction is not the same as salvation or having the Holy Spirit.

Please show from Romans 7 itself that the man described there has the Holy Spirit in the experience referred to in verses 13- 25.

The reason he can't be said to "have the Holy Spirit" is that his experience doesn't dovetail with what the rest of Paul's letters, as well as John's, say about what it means to "have the Spirit." For instance, compare Romans 6 and 8, and 1 John 3 with the man of Romans 7. The Holy Spirit brings freedom and liberty and does not result in a person being continually unable to do what the Holy Spirit wants him to do. The man of Romans 7 says he cannot do right. Where in the Bible does it say that a man who "has the Holy Spirit" cannot do right but MUST always do wrong? Yet, according to Romans 7: 19, this is precisely the experience of the man of Romans 7.

The quotes are good ones, Robert. None of the above contradicts, when correctly understood, the rest of the things Ellen White says on the subject. For one thing, no one is saying that "we have no sin." No one is saying "we have attained," so why do you keep going back to that same old hobby horse? It only shows that you can't get beyond that point. You have to think beyond that box.

Please look at these quotes based on post #166305 and then answer a few questions about each one:

1) We can obey the commandments of God, and many do obey, and many hearts are in harmony with the precepts of God's law;

It is NOT true, then, that no one can obey the commandments of God.

Neither is it true that no one's heart is in harmony with the precepts of God's law.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT WE CANNOT OBEY GOD AND THAT OUR HEARTS CANNOT BE IN HARMONY WITH GOD'S LAW?

2) "True love for God will be revealed in obedience to all His commandments";

Again, it is obvious from this statement that there are Christians who do obey all of God's commandments. Otherwise the above statement would mean that no one has true love for God.

b)" Obedience is the fruit of faith and love;"

It is clear then that there are those who do obey out of faith and love.

WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE REALLY OBEYS?

3) "If we abide in Christ... our actions and thoughts, etc., will be in harmony with the will of God;"

Obviously there are those whose actions and thoughts are in harmony with the will of God. Otherwise the statement means that no one abides in Christ.


WHO WANTS US TO BELIEVE THAT NO ONE CAN HAVE THOUGHTS AND ACTIONS IN HARMONY WITH THE WILL OF GOD?

I agree with all of your post. Thank you!!!!

I don't think that there was anything that I really need to add to the posts above to clarify what I believe is the Biblical position of sin and it's relation to salvation. We should not sin! Bible makes it very clear. We should walk in the spirit, and not in flesh. Bible makes it very clear too. Yet it is very clear that genuine believers fall, and make mistakes. It does not diminish the salvation experience, but strengthens it! All of us learn from our mistakes unfortunately. My view is by no means deliberate sin to make grace abound, and all of what was posted above I agree. BUT let's not forget the world that we live in and that WE WILL FALL AT TIMES.

If you can say that over past day/week/month/year you have not committed a deliberate sin that you regret I'd like to know that. Does that one deliberate sin canceled out your salvation, and you have to be re-saved? Of course not! One of the indicators that you are saved is the awareness of sin and it is a burden when you commit it. It is not something that saved person can go through without some burdened heart. If you do something you know is wrong and you don't care, then it might be the first indicator that something is wrong with your salvation experience.

And yes! I believe that it is possible to stop sinning deliberately. But nowhere in the Bible does God separate and excuse sins of omission (or I "I was not aware of it" sins). There are no explicit statements or additions of the words "deliberate" and "unintentional". There are none. Something to think about here, when you separate between these two.

Some very good points and insights. Thanks.

1 John 3: 1-10 is not saying Christians who are truly born from above will not commit sin. It says that people who have the nature, or seed, of God in them (v. 9) "cannot practice sinning because he is born of God." It's a willful, deliberate PRACTICE of sin.

The apostle John says that those who are born of the Spirit "practice righteousness," whereas those who do not have the Spirit deliberately, knowingly, and habitually practice sin.

Therefore, again, neither the Bible nor Ellen White say that Christians do not fall short of God's glory or that Christians never fall into sin. What they both teach is that "no one who abides in Him deliberately, knowingly, and habitually commits and practices sin" (1 John 3: 6, Amplified Version).

The problem here is that there are those who deny that anyone obeys God's commandments, even though both the Bible and Ellen White teach otherwise.
1 John 3: 1-10 teaches that those who are born from above do not practice sin, but there are those who say the Bible is wrong and that all Christians practice willful sin.

Ellen White certainly separates deliberate and intentional, rebellious sins from those that arise out of ignorance. God doesn't look upon all sins as exactly alike. If a person commits a sin out of ignorance or without intending to, God does not see that sin the same as He sees a deliberate and planned murder. That is obvious from scripture. God only sent a prophet to David about the murder of Bathsheba's husband, not about the many other sins David committed.

1 John 3: 1-10 is not saying a Christian who has the Spirit in his life will never commit sin. It says he will not practice willful sinning. There's a big difference. If there is no difference, John could not have said what he does. Compare 1 John 1: 8-10 with 1 John 3: 1-10. There in the first chapter, it is plain that Christians cannot rightly claim to be without sin or never to have committed sin. "If anyone should sin, we have an advocate...." (2: 1). So it is plain that he is not saying that Christians cannot sin. He is talking about the continued practice and willfulness of the sin.

"HOWEVER, BRETHREN, I could not talk to you as to spiritual [men], but as to nonspiritual [men of the flesh, in whom the carnal nature predominates], as to mere infants [in the new life] in Christ [ unable to talk yet!]" 1 Corinthians 3:1 AMP

"...be constantly renewed in the spirit of your mind [having a fresh mental and spiritual attitude],
And put on the new nature (the regenerate self) created in God's image, [Godlike] in true righteousness and holiness." Ephesians 4:23-25 AMP
Regards!

Would you so easily practice sin if you knew that when you commit a deliberate sin, it was going to cost the life of your son?

The reason so many people commit sin so nonchalantly is that they don't hate the sin like God hates it.

We will hate sin more and more as we fall deeper in love with Jesus Christ and see what it did and still does to Him.

So the secret of stopping our sinning is to see it from God's perspective and to hate it because we see more clearly what it has done and what it is continuing to do. Only the Holy Spirit can make us see.

It is one reason John says those who have God's seed, or nature, do not continue to practice sin. We must pray that God will give us His nature. Otherwise we'll be blind and go right on sinning willfully and deliberately.

"The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished" 2 Peter 2:9 KJV

"But when they arrest you and deliver you up, do not worry beforehand, or premeditate what you will speak. But whatever is given you in that hour, speak that; for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit." Mark 13:11 NKJV
Regards!

What do these quotes have to do with "if you are looking to your experience"?

In Romans 7:22 he makes this statement:

For in my inner being I delight in God’s law.

There are two things I would like to say about this verse 22.

First, his phrase “inward man” or “inner being” is a phrase Paul will use only to the believer. For example, let me give you a couple of incidents. Turn to 2 Corinthians 4:16 and you will find that Paul is talking here about the believer when he uses that phrase “inward man” or the “inner man” or the “inner mind”:

Therefore we [believers] do not lose heart. Though outwardly [i.e., the flesh, the body] we are wasting away, yet inwardly we are being renewed day by day.

You see, he’s talking about the converted mind. If you turn to Ephesians 3:16, you have the same idea there. Paul will never use that phrase for the unbeliever, he will use it only for the believer. Ephesians 3:16:

I pray that out of his glorious riches he may strengthen you [i.e., the Christians of Ephesus] with power through his Spirit in your inner being....

Secondly, if you look at Ephesians 2:3, Paul will tell us there that the mind and the flesh of the unbeliever are in harmony with sin:

...gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts....

That is the pre-converted man. But when it comes to the believer, his mind has been turned towards God. He has a renewed mind. And that is what the Greek word “repentance” means: a change of mind. But his flesh is unchangeable.



Love doesn't force. The HS doesn't just take over. You must give Him permission - it's called surrender.

The man of Romans 7 is trying to obey using his will. Everything we do outside the HS is sin. Did you get that? Everything! Everything I do is polluted with "self" because my motive will be self-centered (e.g. look at 1 Cor 13:1-5).

I can do the right thing outwardly, but if I am not motivated by agape (and ingredient that only comes from the HS) all my works are motivated by a desire for a reward or fear of punishment and are iniquity in God's eyes.

Yes, of course. I agree with everything here, except the apparent assumption that the man of Romans 7 is simply not giving the Holy Spirit permission. But the thing is there is nothing in Romans 7 that indicates that this man is conscious of the Holy Spirit. There is no evidence that he is a man who has known the power of the Holy Spirit in the past. Romans 7: 24 is not the cry of a man who has known the Holy Spirit in His life before. It is the cry of a man who is just realizing the Good News for the first time, not something he was simply neglecting to take advantage of for a while.

Romans 7: 15, 19 has the man of Romans 7 testify that he cannot do right but all he can do is practice evil. He cannot do anything else but that! Yet 1 John 3: 9 says this is an impossibility. It says that one who is born of God cannot practice evil. (1 John 3: 9 says that one born of God cannot do what the man of Romans 7 testifies he MUST do.) Therefore, it is not a question of the Holy Spirit not forcing Himself on this man; it is a question of this man being unable to use the power of the Holy Spirit when he wants to, because he is clearly not conscious of the Holy Spirit until Romans 8: 2. That is AFTER he accepts Christ into his life. The Holy Spirit does not ABIDE in our life until we accept Christ. The Holy Spirit works on our minds and our hearts before we accept Christ, of course, but the Holy Spirit LIVING IN US is connected to Christ living in us. One cannot expect the Holy Spirit to abide in us if we are resisting Christ or before we have fully accepted Christ. I see that as the main point of Romans 6 and 8 as well as 1 John 5. The gift of the Spirit comes with Christ. That is also the message of Acts 2. But the man of Romans 7 is not there yet-- and he doesn't get there until Romans 8.

I will study this aspect of it again. It is not something new to me, but I need time to study this thoroughly in connection with the spiritual condition of the man Paul is describing.

This I agree with. And so does Ellen White ...

In Romans 7 Paul is describing the struggle of a new believer. Here we see that as babes in Christ we are still carnal. Until we consider ourselves dead to sin... making a decided choice to follow God completely, known as crucifying the flesh Rom 6:6-7. We are still carnal in nature. Once we realize how utterly vile and loathsome our characters are and how hopelessly trapped in sin we are, can we in true humble contrition realize our only hope is through the Power of Christ. Rom. 7:22-25. Only after we repent or turn from our sins, making that decided choice (that every human at some point in life will make) to follow God with our whole heart can we be truly converted and the Holy Spirit work through us with true power. This is why the struggle in Romans chapter 7. This is the "birthing pains" if you will of our rebirth and conversion.

I thought you said Ellen White taught that all Christians practice willful sin. She does not say this here. "The willful practicing of sin" is not simply being unable on our own to "perfectly obey the holy law." Willful practice of sin means wanting and deliberately planning to continue sinning. It is not simply sinning despite what you want to do. It is STUBBORNLY WANTING AND PLANNING TO LIVE IN SIN. It is not falling short of God's glory. It is desiring to keep committing sin.

ARE YOU SAYING THAT YOU BELIEVE ALL CHRISTIANS STUBBORNLY WANT AND PLAN TO GO ON SINNING AND LIVING IN SIN EVEN WHEN THEY ARE FREE NOT TO DO THIS? DO YOU BELIEVE THIS IS WHAT ELLEN WHITE TAUGHT?

I've already quoted clear statements from her pen that show she does not say Christian's willfully practice sin. The apostles John and Paul talk about how the person who has the Spirit abiding in him practices righteousness, not unrighteousness. John says, "IF ANYONE SINS...," NOT "SINCE YOU ARE ALWAYS SINNING AND CANNOT STOP SINNING..."

Practicing righteousness does not mean never committing a sin or never making mistakes, nor does it mean Christians don't fall short of God's glory. There is a difference between the person who is falling short of God's glory while he is in a sincere relationship with Christ, and the person who is planning on continuing in sin without having any intention of repenting and overcoming through the power of God's Spirit.

If Ellen White says people born from above and have the Holy Spirit dwelling in them practice willful sin, she would be contradicting the apostle John, and that would prove that she is a false prophet.

Please read again:

"Had Moses and Aaron been cherishing self-esteem or indulging a passionate spirit in the face of divine warning and reproof, their guilt would have been far greater. But they were [b]not chargeable with willful or deliberate sin; they had been overcome by a sudden temptation, and their contrition was immediate and heartfelt. The Lord accepted their repentance, though because of the harm their sin might do among the people, He could not remit its punishment." PP 419

NOTICE THAT HERE ELLEN WHITE CONTRASTS "WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE SIN" WITH BEING "OVERCOME BY A SUDDEN TEMPTATION."

"Those who are teaching this doctrine today [the doctrine that "by 'believing' we are released from the necessity of being doers of the word"] have much to say in regard to faith and the righteousness of Christ; but they pervert the truth, and make it serve the cause of error. They declare that we have only to believe on Jesus Christ, and that faith is all-sufficient; that the righteousness of Christ is to be the sinner's credentials; that this imputed righteousness fulfils the law for us, and that we are under no obligation to obey the law of God. This class claim that Christ came to save sinners, and that he has saved them. 'I am saved,' they will repeat over and over again. But are they saved while transgressing the law of Jehovah?--No; for the garments of Christ's righteousness are not a cloak for iniquity."--Signs of the Times, February 25, 1897.

Please reread and study the whole chapter "The Test of Discipleship" in the wonderful book, Steps To Christ.

I appreciate and agree with the quotes you provided John. But if we put them in context we can see that sin is sin.



If our sins are not 'willful' ... then who is forcing your will to do them. NO one is holding a gun to my head when I sin. I sin willfully. I have the choice to know God as I am privileged to know Him. And if I make the choice to know Him ... I will not sin. There is 'NO excuse for sin' as Ellen White puts it. So ... when we sin ... it is willful ... for all the provisions to not sin are available to each of us. You can't serve both God and Satan at the same time. You can have only ONE master. When you sin ... you are serving Satan. Again ... no one is holding a gun to your head.

This is what sister White is referring to in the quote from Steps to Christ. We of ourselves cannot be perfectly obedient. Through Christ's Power and example we CAN be perfectly obedient. Praise the Lord!

I tend to disagree that ALL sin is willful. There are numerous verses in the Bible talking about taking heed not to be deceived. Paul even asks the Galatians who had bewitched or deceived them. Indeed the Bible says in the end even the very elect would be deceived if it were possible. Why is that not possible? Because the Holy Spirit will be directly guiding them in the true path.

Thanks praise Him. Yes, there is no excuse for sin. For if GOd works IN us ... we will not sin. And we do have the opportunity to know God as is our privilege to know Him. And if we do that ... we will not have sin of ANY kind.

Jesus states that, "without Me you can do nothing". He's talking about bearing fruit. Yes, you can produce outward acts that seem good, but without Christ it impossible to do genuine works.

Take the Jews for example, they not only kept the 10 commandments, but they also kept many other rules in the book of the law. The question is were they really keeping the law in the light of what Jesus said above? The answer is no!

Now go back to 1 Cor 13:3 "If I give away all I have, ... but have not love [agape], I gain nothing."

In other words agape is the ingredient by which the law can be kept. The motive must be right...it must be free of self-seeking. That comes only from the Holy Spirit as one surrenders. So without the Spirit you can keep the letter of the law, but with the Holy Spirit you can experience the spirit of the law.

With this in mind go back to Romans 7:14

We know that the law is spiritual; but I am of flesh, sold into bondage to sin.

What's the context? The spirituality of the law. That's where he is failing. So the evil he is experiencing isn't murder and/or sexual immorality, etc. No the evil works he is experiencing are works based in iniquity, i.e., good works produced by the flesh. It's the flesh trying to do the impossible.

Rob

Yes, "a believer". I'm glad that you see this. I'm not so sure it's about a "new" believer. Here's why:

Not counting willful sin, every time a believer is confronted by temptation and fails is because he is trying in his own power and therefore he is experiencing the man of Romans 7 experience.

That would require a perfect knowledge of God's will, especially His agape love. It would also require perfect surrender. The best of Christians have self-seeking and self-love in their lives. BTW, read Ecclesiastes 7:20

"There is not a righteous man on earth who does what is right and never sins."

Just thinking out loud....What do you do with the following?

Romans 7:17 As it is, it is no longer I myself who do it, but it is sin living in me. 18 I know that nothing good lives in me, that is, in my flesh. For I have the desire to do what is good, but I cannot carry it out....20 Now if I do what I do not want to do, it is no longer I who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it.

Here's the way I see it. My mind is in harmony with God's agape love (as much as I understand it). So in my mind I delight in God's law according to my converted mind. Now comes temptation. What is temptation...better yet, what's behind temptation? Self-seeking...lust. So my nature (which is based on the love of self...me, me, me) places in my mind a forceful desire.

Let's go with an example. I'll use the guy thing...the guy temptation - sexual temptation:

A "babe" winks at me, but I'm married....Do you think the nature cares? It doesn't care who it hurts as long as it gets what it wants.

Now here's the problem: The moment that thought .... that desire comes to my mind, I have two choices:

1] I can immediately give it over to the Holy Spirit or

2] I can try and say "no" to the desires of my nature.

EGW states that Christ didn't sin even by a thought. As soon as temptation entered His mind He instantly gave it over to the Holy Spirit. If you hesitate, even a moment, your flesh will overpower your mind and you will do what it desires.

So let's say you are tempted. You don't immediately surrender and you end up doing what your nature desires. Did you willfully sin?

I'm not so sure. Why? Because Paul says, "it is no longer I [that is my mind] who do it, but it is sin living in me that does it."

You see your nature doesn't give you a choice. It says, "I want it...give it to me now." If you fail to immediately yield...to surrender, your nature will capture your mind until its got what it wants.

On the other hand the Holy Spirit doesn't force Himself on you. That's why He must have permission from your mind, but the flesh doesn't ask...it dominates.

The question is when you fail to immediately surrender, and therefore sin, is it your mind or your sin nature that makes you sin?

If it's your mind, then yes, to me that's willful, but if it is your nature is that willful?

Does that make sense or am I off in la la land?

I'm in fundamental agreement with your post here, Robert.



Here's the way I see it. My mind is in harmony with God's agape love (as much as I understand it). So in my mind I delight in God's law according to my converted mind. Now comes temptation. What is temptation...better yet, what's behind temptation? Self-seeking...lust. So my nature (which is based on the love of self...me, me, me) places in my mind a forceful desire.

Let's go with an example. I'll use the guy thing...the guy temptation - sexual temptation:

A "babe" winks at me, but I'm married....Do you think the nature cares? It doesn't care who it hurts as long as it gets what it wants.

Now here's the problem: The moment that thought .... that desire comes to my mind, I have two choices:

1] I can immediately give it over to the Holy Spirit or

2] I can try and say "no" to the desires of my nature. [/quote]

Why do you say "try"? Do you believe that, by the Holy Spirit, Christians can successfully say "no" to their sinful natures and desires?

We could give all of the temptations over to the Holy Spirit. There is no reason we don't except that we choose not to. There are some sins that we may not want to give up yet. Those are different for different people.



There are many times when people hesitate for a moment, yet don't end up doing what the flesh desires. However, when we consciously hold onto the thought before letting it go, it is sinful, and needs to be confessed and repented of.



Here is what "willful" is---

willful | (also wilful)
adjective
(of an immoral or illegal act or omission) intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.
• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects : the pettish, willful side of him.

willful
adjective
1 willful destruction deliberate, intentional, done on purpose, premeditated, planned, conscious. antonym accidental, unintentional.
2 a willful child headstrong, strong-willed, obstinate, stubborn, pigheaded, recalcitrant, uncooperative, obstreperous, ungovernable, unmanageable; balky; formal refractory, contumacious. antonym biddable, amenable.




But we do have a choice. Your body can't do any sin without your mind deciding to do it. No one, not even Satan, can force us to commit a sin. Your nature can't take away your choice and your freedom, which is restored to us by the Holy Spirit.



Let's go back to what "willful" is. Doing sin willfully means that you do sin because it is what you want to do, even though you know it is wrong. Look again:

intentional; deliberate : willful acts of damage.
• having or showing a stubborn and determined intention to do as one wants, regardless of the consequences or effects
headstrong, strong-willed, obstinate, stubborn, pigheaded

Remember that 1 John 3: 1-10 is talking about the PRACTICE OF WILLFUL AND DELIBERATE SIN. What is "practice"?


• the customary, habitual, or expected procedure of something : current nursing practice | modern child-rearing practices.
2 repeated exercise in or performance of an activity or skill so as to acquire or maintain proficiency in it : it must have taken a lot of practice to become so fluent.
2 carry out or perform (a particular activity, method, or custom) habitually or regularly : we still practice some of these rituals today.
• actively pursue or be engaged in (a particular profession or occupation) : he began to practice law | [ intrans. ] he practiced as an attorney | [as adj. ] ( practicing) a practicing architect.

What do these quotes have to do with "if you are looking to your experience"? [/quote]

If you've had the experience/s of these promises already having been fulfilled to a greater or lessor degree in your own past, your faith will be increased during future unexpected crisis as you draw to mind the ongoing mercy of the Lord.
The best evidence of future behavior is past performance and if God performed in mercy to you when you didn't deserve it in the past any more than you deserve it now, your confidence lays hold of the gift of faith in your heart already given by the Holy Spirit, to accept new blessings from Him.

"For you showed sympathy to the prisoners and accepted joyfully the seizure of your property, knowing that you have for yourselves a better possession and a lasting one.
Therefore, do not throw away your confidence, which has a great reward.
For you have need of endurance, so that when you have done the will of God, you may receive what was promised. " Heb 10:34-36 NASB

"For I say, through the grace given unto me, to every man that is among you, not to think of himself more highly than he ought to think; but to think soberly, according as God hath dealt to every man the measure of faith." Rom 12:3 NASB

"So faith comes from hearing, that is, hearing the Good News about Christ. Romans 10:17 NLT
Regards!

:Jesusfish:

"For it is impossible to bring back to repentance those who were once enlightened—those who have experienced the good things of heaven and shared in the Holy Spirit, who have tasted the goodness of the word of God and the power of the age to come—and who then turn away from God. It is impossible to bring such people back to repentance; by rejecting the Son of God, they themselves are nailing him to the cross once again and holding him up to public shame.

When the ground soaks up the falling rain and bears a good crop for the farmer, it has God’s blessing. But if a field bears thorns and thistles, it is useless. The farmer will soon condemn that field and burn it.

Dear friends, even though we are talking this way, we really don’t believe it applies to you. We are confident that you are meant for better things, things that come with salvation. For God is not unjust. He will not forget how hard you have worked for him and how you have shown your love to him by caring for other believers, as you still do. Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true. Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance." Heb 6:4-12 NLT
Regards!

I really appreciate your thoughtful, Bible-based posts, Life.

IF you surrender....The Holy Spirit just doesn't automatically take over.




This is incorrect! I can't believe you said this.

Romans 7:22 For in my inner being [refers to the converted man] I delight in God’s law; 23 but I see another law [force or power] at work in the members of my body, waging war against the law of my mind [my will power] and making me a prisoner of the law of sin [the power of human nature] at work within my members.

Clearly even converted human will power [i.e., "the law of my mind
"] is no match for the sin nature [i.e., "the law of sin"]. Very clear...very clear.

Only as the converted man gives up trying to defeat the sin nature and allows God to have control of his will can he experience victory over "the law of sin."

Rob

We're in 100% agreement, Robert. We ourselves, on our own, cannot possibly defeat Satan or our sinful nature. Only by having Christ abiding in us through the Holy Spirit and by maintaining our relationship Christ can the sinful nature and our temptations be defeated and overcome.

You are missing the point. You can have the Holy Spirit (be converted), but that doesn't mean you'll defeat the sin nature. You must allow - surrender - the will to the Holy Spirit when your flesh tempts you. IF you, using your converted will power, try to defeat the flesh you'll lose! That's my point.

That's why the man of Romans 7, who is converted, meets with defeat. The good news, however, is just because you fail to allow the Spirit to tackle the flesh, and therefore meet with defeat, there is no condemnation! Why? You have accepted your position "in Christ"!