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#160369 - 03/07/08 10:28 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... *** [Re: Bravus]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 8966
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
 Originally Posted By: Bravus
I guess my final comment on the issue that is the focus of this thread is that the current approach of the SDA denomination - tying all its beliefs to creationism, actively evangelising on creationism, making non-creationists into second-class citizens in that they are muzzled[1] at least and often excluded - will lead to a selection process of SDA members. A certain type of people will tend to leave the church in large and growing numbers, and those who join will be a different kind of people. Please understand I'm not saying either type of person is superior or inferior, but I am saying that a 'monoculture' church that narrows its diversity is more vulnerable to various 'infections' and other illnesses, just like a monoculture farm.

[1] And I find it interesting that in the 'Affirmation of Creation' document there's precisely one reference to 'ethics and dissent', and it's in relation to how those with different views speak when they're in church employment. As always, much emphasis on the individual's obligations toward the denomination, none on the denomination's toward the individual. What is the ethics of the church's handling of dissent and intellectual freedom on this issue in its institutions?


I think the church is big enough for the view that you are expressing Bravus. If someone leaves ... I think the decision is their's. Our church has a vast supply of legalists ... and we manage to cope with them .

At Andrews ... I hear many variations of creationism such as has been discussed here. While I don't happen to believe in your beliefs ... I think there is no problem with you being in the church. Our church allows for individual thought on many issues.
For instance ... Ellen White, meat eating and faith vs works.
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#160384 - 03/07/08 11:57 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 16941
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Since creationism is fundamental to the Adventist beliefs, it is much like the authority of the papacy is fundamental to Catholic beliefs. Would it be ethical for an Adventist to work in a Catholic school and teach the pope is the anti-Christ? If that were to happen, should the Catholic church be obligated to the teacher or the teacher to the Catholic church?

I am of the opinion that it is unethical for a person to be employed by a denomination and teach against the fundamental doctrines of that denomination. So I agree with the Adventist church - which is probably why I am an Adventist. I disagree on some doctrines like the prohibition of women's ordination and the use of jewelry however those are not considered fundamental beliefs.
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#160385 - 03/08/08 12:02 AM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Shane]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 8966
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Many in the church disagree with something as "fundamental" as Salvation by Faith. Yet, our family is large enough for them.
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#160427 - 03/08/08 05:24 AM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Redwood]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 16941
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
The church has an official position on salvation by faith. It also as an official position on creation. The topic of this thread isn't about radical fundamentalist individuals within the church. It is about the church's official position itself.

I have no issue with theistic evolutionists being members of our church denomination. Nor do I have an issue with them being in positions of leadership as long as they do not use those position of leadership to proselytize their theistic evolutionist views.

In the case of Bravus, and many others, he is simply claiming that he doesn't know or isn't convinced of either the literal, Biblical creation account or something more along the line of theistic evolution. It seems to me that he is simply being intellectually honest with himself and others. I have no issue with that. I suspect that if he were elected an elder of his local church he wouldn't use the position to teach alternative ways of understanding Genesis but if he were to be invited to someone's home for lunch the subject may come up. That seems perfectly fine with me.
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#160590 - 03/09/08 03:18 AM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Bravus]
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 130
Bravus, for what it's worth, I think that there's potential for change. It won't happen quickly, and it will indeed involve reinterpretation, and theology will need to be restructured, but it could happen.

It can't happen until there is some sort of critical mass willing to make themselves heard in the church. I regret that I can't be one of those people.
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#160684 - 03/09/08 10:34 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Vera]
Bravus Moderator Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 7061
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
I'd like to have that hope, too, Vera - but you see the problem. Those who believe differently are strongly adjured to keep silent on this point. Perhaps there's still scope for speaking out, and perhaps those of us not employed by the institution are in the better (safer) position to do that. Perhaps I should be writing more for SDA audiences and trying to get published, I'm not sure. I think there's a worthwhile conversation to be had, even if it's just to show that the possible alternatives are not limited to recent creationism and atheism. It's hard to maintain the drive to work for change, though, when change has been so comprehensively rejected. If a denomination has gone on record as saying "if this changes all our doctrines fall", it's pretty hard to move from there. I may not live that long!
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#160689 - 03/09/08 11:03 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Bravus]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/27/05
Posts: 3138
Loc: Ohio
What does Michael Hasel think of your questions, Bravus? I entreat you to send him a letter.


Peer review


oG

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#160693 - 03/09/08 11:25 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Bravus]
CoAspen Online   walklikeegyptian


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 1374
Loc: Colorado
 Quote:
If a denomination has gone on record as saying "if this changes all our doctrines fall", it's pretty hard to move from there. I may not live that long!


Hopefully Christ will have come before then! Since we are saved by the belief in the death of Christ and acceptance, not doctrine, then we all look forward to the 2nd coming and the answers that will come later!!
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#160696 - 03/09/08 11:53 PM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: melvin mccarty]
melvin mccarty Online   content


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 617
Loc: B,C.
The question among adventists then is about the "when" of the beginning written about by Moses and John. I believe that there is no reason to assume that God would flout the rules of balance and gravity. He would have made our solar system as a unit. That would be when time began for Earth. We are not told when that was in relation to the formation of other parts of the universe.

mel


Edited by melvin mccarty (03/09/08 11:54 PM)

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#160719 - 03/10/08 01:39 AM Re: Is it possible to be an Adventist without ... [Re: Bravus]
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 130
I'd guess conversations already take place. No one I know in person is having them, but I suppose one has to start somewhere. Surely the Internet is a useful place? Seventh-day Adventists for Evolution?
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