excellent post Ginge!!!

Shabbat Shalom,
pkrause

Dear truthseeker007

I'am sorry, I don't wanna offend anybody but please be nice and don't be rude....

The very first posting you accused SDA church as



Please prove to everyone and show me the official fundamental beliefs that SDA is elevating Ellen G White more than....
Well the Spirit of Prophecy is a smaller light that leads you to the brighter light. That's all.

Or maybe, how's your experience with one bad apple? If we have the bad one then we need to throw away and condemn all of the leaders of the church around the world, right Mr.Truthseeker007 ?

Let's see from another view: Are you well-pleased and happy if anyone condemn you as a jesuit?

You're too much in hate, condemning and playing games with the REAL Seventh-day Adventists Church in it's whole fundamental beliefs even by saying, "traditional Adventists" again and again.

You don't agree with the official SDA's point of view but at the same time you also don't really happy with Desmon Ford either.

Why don't you build and organize a brand new protestant denomination today and you can do whatever you want and of your beliefs.

Yes, I am not an expert either...but the big concern-as always is:

Most of the Evangelical and liberal Adventists must not agree and always reject to set up an appointment for open discussion with the conservative Adventists to have an open forum for at least 3 to 5 hours.

Go and check up by yourself starting today. Can you find liberal Adventists agree to have an open discussion with the conservative Adventists to have an open forum about any Biblical research?

The biggest concern here is to see that Liberal Adventists always condemn the Conservative as not having an open mind and receiveng new ideas...but at the same time the Liberal usually reject and not agree if the both have an open forum.


So, no matter how detail of your research is, please don't ever forget how important an open discussion is.


Love in Christ,

D

I think you have some good ideas here. Look up in the Bible all the places where God's presence and fire are closely associated, starting with the angel who guards the gate to the garden of Eden with a sword that appears to be on fire (Gen. 3: 24). Also, Moses' encounters with God, at the bush and in Ex. 24: 16, 17 and 33: 18-23.

Keep thinking it through as you study and pray.

I'm not sure of your reason for why Jesus does not touch the earth at his Second Coming, but I wouldn't reject it out of hand. One result of our knowledge that Jesus won't touch the earth at that time, is that we will be able to distinguish between the true Second Coming and the counterfeit that Satan produces just before Christ's return. Satan will walk the earth and claim to be Christ, and virtually the whole world will be deceived into accepting him.

One reason for it is that it helps us to understand the estrangement that sin causes between man and God. It shows that God hates sin but loves the sinner and that sin separates the sinner from God-- because He is holy and altogether righteous. This is a hard lesson for humans to learn because, unless we have the Spirit, we love sin and find in it everything that makes life exciting and fun.

The fundamental purpose of the earthly sanctuary was to teach us that there is no salvation without the shedding of blood, specifically the shedding of God's own blood. Apart from Christ's sacrifice, salvation was impossible. There is no atonement or justification without the shedding of blood. There is no sanctification without shedding of blood, and there is no victory without the shedding of blood.



It's true that Jesus and the Father have always loved humankind and been active in our behalf, and of course the promise of a Savior was given to Adam and Eve almost immediately after the Fall. All of that was based on Christ's successful work on earth, living a righteous, perfect life and dying as a perfect sacrifice. He could not be our mediator until after He shed His blood. If Jesus had sinned, or if He hadn't gone through with the sacrifice and if Christ's sacrifice hadn't been acceptable to the Father, the human race would have been eternally lost. The Bible does not teach that Jesus was a High Priest from the time of Adam. At the time of Adam, Christ became the promised Messiah, the one who would one day destroy sin and Satan. But Christ became a High Priest only after His sacrifice and resurrection and ascension. See Hebrews 5. And of course there will come a point where He is no longer our High Priest. See the end of Hebrews 9. Compare that with Rev. 9: 11 ff and Daniel 12:1. He comes the second time not as a mediator but as King. Shortly before that time, human probation will have passed and sin will already have been dealt with. The spiritual condition of all people will be forever settled.



The apostle John in vision saw Jesus in the first apartment of the heavenly sanctuary. Rev. 1: 12, 13; ff 4:5; 8:3. Finally at Rev. 11: 19, the second apartment is opened, and John sees the ark of God's covenant there. (Of course the ark is not empty but contains the Ten Commandment law of God.) So it is clear that John was given a view of both apartments in the true sanctuary in heaven, and that Jesus was seen in the first apartment.

The earthly sanctuary services and Christ's ministry are divided into three phases. Phase 1 was in the outer court where confession of sin was made and where the lamb was slain, and it corresponded to Christ's sacrifice. Phase 2 was when the blood was taken into the sanctuary and sprinkled before the alter of incense in the Holy Place. This corresponds to Christ's work as our Mediator from the time of His ascension until the end of human probation. Hebrew 9: 24 "For Christ has not entered the holy place made with hands, which are copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us" (NASB). Phase 3 is the removal of sins from the sanctuary and shows that Satan is really responsible for sin. It corresponds to the Judgment that takes place prior to Christ's return. This is going on now. I believe it has been going on since 1844. It did not need to continue until 2008. It could have been finished long before this time, just as the children of Israel could have gone into the Promised Land sooner and did not need to wander in the wilderness for 40 years and die there.

Jesus spoke of these 3 phases in John 16: 8-11: sin, righteousness, and judgment.



The only reason that human beings did not die eternally already is that Christ volunteered to die for us and to become our High Priest, but at that time, before Christ's death, there was no one interceding for the human race. As Hebrews 7 and 8 shows, Christ only became our High Priest after His ascension. Everything was predicated on Christ's coming to earth as a human and dying for us.



Yes, of course, the Father loves us as much as Christ loves us. Christ did nothing the Father would not have done if He had come here in the place of Christ. If the Father had come here instead of Christ, we would have seen the same love demonstrated.

But the reason for the intercession is that Satan is the accuser not only of humans but also of God, and also because sin must be seen for what it indeed is, something that God hates and that separates the sinner from a holy, righteous God. For some indications of the reason it is necessary, please see Job 1 &2, Zech. 3, & Matt. 4.

In Rev. 2: 24, Jesus very clearly says, "I am He who investigates the minds and hearts" of Christians. The Christian Standard Bible reads, "I am the One who examines minds and hearts." The Bible in Basic English reads, "I am the One who makes search..." Richmond Lattimore's translation reads, "I am he who examines... " (Lattimore was a professional translator of the Greek classics and taught Greek at Bryn Mawr College.)

The Greek Lexicons and dictionaries give " to search, examine, investigate" as the primary definitions of the word used, eraunaw. Strong's # 2045. The same word occurs in the NT at John 5: 39; 7: 52; Romans 8: 27; 1 Cor. 2: 10; and 1 Peter 1: 11. As pointed out before, this investigation is portrayed as originating from the heavenly sanctuary; it is spoken in the context of judgment and rewards; and the word in Rev. 2: 24 is a present active participle, which means it is happening in the continuous present.

There are many other instances in the Bible which speak of God as "investigating" the hearts and minds of those who have made a profession of believing in Him. That concept is very solidly supported by Scripture.

Dear Delta you stated:

"I'am sorry, I don't wanna offend anybody but please be nice and don't be rude...."
I don t have any intentions of being rude. There is only one thing i am desparetely looking for; truth!

"The very first posting you accused SDA church as

Quote:
the church leadership has caused a lot of troubles by not being open and by elevating Ellen White to a prophetic position way beyond the Corinthians description of a prophet. Furthermore they have denied any scriptural evidence contradicting the traditional views of Seventh Day adventists

Please prove to everyone and show me the official fundamental beliefs that SDA is elevating Ellen G White more than....
Well the Spirit of Prophecy is a smaller light that leads you to the brighter light. That's all."

I have to be quite honest with you on this matter, i ve got my information from anti SDA sites and television shows (John Ankerberg show). It came out after hearing two sides of the story that the very SDA elite, willing- or unwillingly created the suspicion that they were using Ellen as an authoritative source of scripture in order to be able to manipulate/control people. I don t think this is Ellen White her fault though, but it happened. Personally i hate the idea that a person should be lifted up on one another. A Christian is supposed to be a spiritual stone in a spiritual house of which Jesus himself is the cornerstone.

"Or maybe, how's your experience with one bad apple? If we have the bad one then we need to throw away and condemn all of the leaders of the church around the world, right Mr.Truthseeker007 ?"

You are right about this, every church has a lot of bad apples. Please don t call me Mr., it makes me feel so old;)

"Let's see from another view: Are you well-pleased and happy if anyone condemn you as a jesuit?"
I have no secret agenda, all i want is the truth, no matter how bitter or sweet it may be.

"You're too much in hate, condemning and playing games with the REAL Seventh-day Adventists Church in it's whole fundamental beliefs even by saying, "traditional Adventists" again and again."
If you say this to me, you should say this to more than 50 percent of the SDA people. Let me explain this, everybody who does not believe that Jesus entered the holy of holiest in 1844 shouldn t be a member of the SDA church. Why? because Ellen White claimed that she saw this happening in a vision. Now, according to Desmond Ford 1844 is no biblical datum. When Dessie was disfellowshipped from church, large numbers of adventists left the church including hundreds of pastors.

"You don't agree with the official SDA's point of view but at the same time you also don't really happy with Desmon Ford either."
Let me be honest with you on this one. The SDA church has a lot of truths. From all the churches that i know, the SDA church is probably the most rich church. But just because something is logical, doesn t mean something is true. (take evolution for example). Either the SDA church is from God, or the SDA church is a set-up from satan who tries to hide the truth by creating protestant confusion. (babylon) However if i had to make a decision, i would choose to become a seventh day adventist.

"Why don't you build and organize a brand new protestant denomination today and you can do whatever you want and of your beliefs."
Funny, i have been thinking a lot about this for a while...

"Yes, I am not an expert either...but the big concern-as always is:

Most of the Evangelical and liberal Adventists must not agree and always reject to set up an appointment for open discussion with the conservative Adventists to have an open forum for at least 3 to 5 hours.


Go and check up by yourself starting today. Can you find liberal Adventists agree to have an open discussion with the conservative Adventists to have an open forum about any Biblical research?

The biggest concern here is to see that Liberal Adventists always condemn the Conservative as not having an open mind and receiveng new ideas...but at the same time the Liberal usually reject and not agree if the both have an open forum."
Actually, i am a conservative. I hate liberalism in the church because it leads to doctrines of men comforting themselves with self-made truths in order to gain the symphathy of the "it a all love"-churches. But i would like to have some clear biblical evidence that 1844 is a biblical Datum without having to buy 20 books after which i have to buy 20 books that critize the 20 books that are critized.


"So, no matter how detail of your research is, please don't ever forget how important an open discussion is."
I agree, therefore we should always try to find two extremes and throw one out...

I need to say here is a good example where using the "quote" button would be very helpful. I found this post hard to follow, and ended up not finishing it...

yeah sorry for that Rudywoofs;)

The more i study Dessie Ford, the more i think he is wrong on many things. I think he has to much confidence in theologians. I rather trust the old lady and the farmers that started the movement. For example, Dessie uses Makabeens to support his view of the 2300 evening mornings to be the tyranny of Antiochius Stephanus. This book can only be found in the Catholic bible, that contain a lot of satanic delusions. I think Desmond Ford is a wonderfull person, but he gives to much credits to humans, rather than the principles of God who chooses humble things to proclaim a great message. I hope in the endtime, when there will be a discussion about the sabbath among theologians, God will send a donkey to tell them the truth!...

Brutha Truthseeker,

Ah believe you mean Desmond Ford, and not Dessie...Dessie lives on Pear Tree Lane, near Russel Springs, Kentucky in one of the many hollows in the area. He runs moonshine every other month and is not inclined to be theological material, iff'n you know what I mean...But he is known to whip up some of the most spiritual material that can just take the breath away from all who sip from his springs...