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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
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Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message
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#170529 - 05/18/08 03:02 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Offline


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 855
Loc: B,C.
"Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.....?"



"in a word, yes"

Mmmm is that quite clear? (smile)

mel

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#170616 - 05/18/08 11:51 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
Bravus Online   content

Husband and Father


Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 9880
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Quote:
I don't see the problem?

Not a problem at all, just an observation. I think sometimes an automatic assumption when people talk about challenging our questions and beliefs is that the intention is to 'loosen' them and make them more liberal. Maybe sometimes it is. I was just noting that that won't be Dr Sam's goal. Not placing any value judgement on that statement at all.
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#170725 - 05/20/08 07:34 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Beryl]
Reddogs Offline


Registered: 05/12/08
Posts: 174
Originally Posted By: Beryl
Quote:
Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.......?


I believe that they should be able to be probed and tested in friendly hands. However, there are several things which need to be considered:

1. The time when they were written. What applied then may not specifically apply in detail today, however,the principle most probably still applies.

Correct...

2. Often the particular "testimony" was given to meet a specific need. Here again, the principle still applies, but not the specific instruction. Take, for instance, an oft quoted "statement" about not having milk and sugar together. That is so often based on a specific testimony that Ellen White gave to a man whose wife was a lazy housewife and did not do anything to provide her husband with appropriate food. He wanted to do what was right, and he left off meat, but, because his wife did not cook anything to take the place of the meat, he relied on copious amounts of milk and sugar to give to him the strength to continue his work. He eventually died -- probably from diabetes.


Everything in proper context..

So, in this case the principle to apply is to replace meat with a protein food that will be a more healthful alternative than meat.

3. God unfolded truth to Ellen White little by little. We find the same principle in the Bible. When we read the Bible stories we find the same thing happening. Take the book of Ezekiel, for instance. We find God giving Ezekiel instructions over a number of years, gradually becoming more and more insistant to the Israelites who were going deeper and deeper into idolatry. They eventually reached the place in their Baal worship where they were prepared to take their firstborn son -- the one that God had said belonged to Him -- and place him on the burning arms of Baal -- as a sacrifice. Can you even begin to understand the horror of watching that tiny helpless infant die a shocking death all in the name of worship!Eventally God said, "enough is enough" and allowed the Babylonians to take them captive and destroy Jerusalem.


We also sometimes need truth fed to us slowly so we understand...

In the Spirit of Prophecy we often find statements in the early writings that contain truth -- but not the whole truth. Later we will find God giving further instructions that shed FURTHER light on the first statement. These are not contradictions, but further light along the way.


The understanding on the GodHead comes to mind....

God bless,

Beryl


Wow, excellent answers, where have you Adventist been hiding, this is the first real honest (and positive response) answers on Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi I've gotten on any forum........what do they pass out at lunchtime here, it seems to open up a lot of eyes and understanding.........

I will read the rest and post after work...


Edited by Reddogs (05/20/08 07:37 PM)

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#170741 - 05/21/08 01:21 AM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Woody]
Taylor Offline
Sold Out to Jesus


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2591
Loc: CA
So glad you are feeling better, Redwood! I don't think you had the priviledge of being able to go on a hike in so long.

Won't heaven be wonderful where you can run, hike any time you wish, swim with the dolfins, "sky dive" or even just sit quietly completely at ease and pain free and listen to Jesus speak? Wow I can't wait for that day for all of us!

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#201090 - 11/19/08 05:12 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: olger]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 2357
Loc: Georgia
As for Samuel B' probing into history -- recall that no SDA doctrines are founded by or proven by anything Ellen White said. She was not a "doctrinal source" -- the Bible was and still is --

So I am not sure how "knowing more about our history" is a threat of any kind at all.

in Christ,

Bob

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#201093 - 11/19/08 05:52 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 16291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
"Can our beliefs and the testimonies be probed and tested in friendly hands to update or confirm them, or are they untouchable by any means and locked in place.....?"



"in a word, yes"

Mmmm is that quite clear? (smile)



Every generation of Seventh-day Adventists must individually probe and test and study Adventist beliefs and decide if they are true and sound. That is one reason and purpose of the Forum. If each generation did not study these things out for themselves, the living faith of our dead fathers would quickly become the dead faith of our dead fathers. That has happened in some churches. We don't want it to happen in ours.

God is looking for intelligent faith, not blind faith. An intelligent faith requires that people understand why they believe what they do. You can't do that if you haven't looked deeply into the reasons for your faith.

In the final analysis, let every man make up his own mind.

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#201098 - 11/19/08 06:36 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
Woody Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 19560
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
While Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi is certainly a conservative voice in our church ... I have to respect his vast knowledge and sincerity. I attended his Sabbath School class at Andrews and certainly found his comments to be scholarly. I spoke to him for about an hour at the General Conference in St. Louis. He is not so scholarly that he couldn't relate to this unknowledgeable Redwood.
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Love WON Another. This is how I see it.
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.
“When the enemy comes in like a flood, and seeks to overwhelm you with the thought of your sin, tell him: "I know I am a sinner. If I were not, I could not go to the Saviour.” 1 SM 325


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#201111 - 11/19/08 08:35 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Woody]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 16291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Redwood
While Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi is certainly a conservative voice in our church ...


I enjoy his books and his presentations.

There has been quite a bit of talk in the last few years about his being a Jesuit spy but I don't believe there's any good evidence to support that allegation. I've read Dr. Sam's responses to the accusations, and I believe he's answered them more than adequately.

I've only seen him in person once, at the Hill Church in Loma Linda, years ago. The latest book of his that I read is the one on alcohol. It's excellent.

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#201112 - 11/19/08 08:41 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Offline


Registered: 05/18/02
Posts: 855
Loc: B,C.
Quote "In the final analysis let every man make up his own mind" Do you really mean that? If one such as Dr Ford comes up with a conclusion that differs from the creed he is a rebel and a heretic. By the way how many of the votes on the famous 28 were unanimous? Were the people who were voting actually representative of the membership?

The story is told that when the original model T Ford was in the planning stage the question of color came up. Henry Ford said people could have any color they wanted.....as long as it was black. ........mel

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#201124 - 11/19/08 09:36 PM Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 16291
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
Quote "In the final analysis let every man make up his own mind" Do you really mean that? If one such as Dr Ford comes up with a conclusion that differs from the creed he is a rebel and a heretic. By the way how many of the votes on the famous 28 were unanimous? Were the people who were voting actually representative of the membership?

The story is told that when the original model T Ford was in the planning stage the question of color came up. Henry Ford said people could have any color they wanted.....as long as it was black. ........mel


What I am saying is that everyone needs to study these things and decide personally whether they believe the doctrines of the SDA church. If I don't believe them and have disagreements with the church, honesty requires that I won't keep accepting money from the church while teaching against the doctrines of the church.

The church needs to constantly re-examine its beliefs and positions in the light of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Individual members also need to examine their convictions in the light of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It's important to know what you believe and why you believe it. That doesn't mean that no matter what my conclusions are, I stay in the Adventist church. If I conclude that the Sabbath is actually the first day of the week, obviously I wouldn't want to stay in the church.

It isn't necessary to agree with every belief of the church, but it does mean that members are going to be in general agreement with the doctrines of the church, particularly with the foundational truths, and won't be agitating for fundamental doctrinal changes while working as a representative of the church.

In the case of Ford, whom you mention, he came to the conclusion that a foundational pillar of our faith is in error. That is his right. But it is not a right to teach that position from a pulpit while being paid by the tithes of members of the church.

Votes on the doctrines of the church by the world church in General Conference don't have to be unanimous in order to be effective.


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