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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message
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#201129 - 2008-11-19 15:52:51 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Offline
**Rest in Peace or friend, you are missed**


Registered: 2002-05-18
Posts: 855
Loc: B,C.
So "The Church" decides by a majority vote! Is there a record kept of those dissenting votes?

A relatively small group of people, most of whom draw salaries from the church, by a majority vote decide what I am to believe. Is that right?...mel

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#201140 - 2008-11-19 17:11:18 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19641
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
So "The Church" decides by a majority vote! Is there a record kept of those dissenting votes?


See 8 T 236, 237 on the organization of the church.

In 3 T 492, Ellen White wrote, "I have been shown that no man's judgment should be surrendered to the judgment of any one man. But when the judgment of the General Conference, which is the highest authority that God has upon earth, is exercised, private independence and private judgment must not be maintained, but be surrendered."

Quote:
A relatively small group of people, most of whom draw salaries from the church, by a majority vote decide what I am to believe. Is that right?


The doctrines of the church are not determined by a relatively small group of people. It is decided by a long process that includes the final decision by the General Conference in world session, which is a representative body.

You shouldn't allow anyone to tell you what you are to believe. For instance, if you find that through studying the word of God and the Spirit of prophecy, you cannot believe what the church is teaching, you shouldn't believe it if you are not really convinced of it through study, prayer, and thoughtful exchanges with other believers.

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#201229 - 2008-11-20 15:44:09 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Offline
**Rest in Peace or friend, you are missed**


Registered: 2002-05-18
Posts: 855
Loc: B,C.
What criteria persuades you that the G C in session is in fact a representative body?
....mel

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#201274 - 2008-11-20 22:18:27 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19641
Loc: CA


The General Conference in world session is obviously a representative body. You are no doubt asking if it is perfectly representative. No, it is not. There is no such thing as a perfectly representative body anywhere. Never was, never will be. It's what you strive for but there is always room for improvement.

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#201348 - 2008-11-21 11:44:35 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Offline
**Rest in Peace or friend, you are missed**


Registered: 2002-05-18
Posts: 855
Loc: B,C.
Obviously! To you perhaps but it is obvious to me that most of the members of the church are in no way represented ay the G C in session. You should check out who the delegates are and how they became delegates.....mel

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#201359 - 2008-11-21 13:39:40 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19641
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
Obviously! To you perhaps but it is obvious to me that most of the members of the church are in no way represented ay the G C in session. You should check out who the delegates are and how they became delegates.....mel




Are you saying you do not believe that the GC in session is a representative body at all?

I've looked into it and have attended a GC session myself. I know that all the world conferences have a certain number of representatives depending on the numbers of church members in each conference. The delegates from the conferences include a certain percentage of lay people, along with conferences presidents (who, of course, are themselves elected), teachers, pastors, editors, etc., from all around the world.

When it comes to doctrinal changes, the church has several years of discussion, and articles written, before they put the issue to a vote in the GC in world session; and then at the GC they have more papers presented and the delegates present their views.

Before I joined the church, I studied the Bible and the church's doctrines, as well as read several books by Ellen White. I joined the SDA church because I believe in its fundamental beliefs.

How about yourself?

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#201372 - 2008-11-21 15:11:35 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
Reddogs Offline


Registered: 2008-05-12
Posts: 175
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty
Quote "In the final analysis let every man make up his own mind" Do you really mean that? If one such as Dr Ford comes up with a conclusion that differs from the creed he is a rebel and a heretic. By the way how many of the votes on the famous 28 were unanimous? Were the people who were voting actually representative of the membership?

The story is told that when the original model T Ford was in the planning stage the question of color came up. Henry Ford said people could have any color they wanted.....as long as it was black. ........mel


What I am saying is that everyone needs to study these things and decide personally whether they believe the doctrines of the SDA church. If I don't believe them and have disagreements with the church, honesty requires that I won't keep accepting money from the church while teaching against the doctrines of the church.

The church needs to constantly re-examine its beliefs and positions in the light of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. Individual members also need to examine their convictions in the light of the Bible and the Spirit of Prophecy. It's important to know what you believe and why you believe it. That doesn't mean that no matter what my conclusions are, I stay in the Adventist church. If I conclude that the Sabbath is actually the first day of the week, obviously I wouldn't want to stay in the church.

It isn't necessary to agree with every belief of the church, but it does mean that members are going to be in general agreement with the doctrines of the church, particularly with the foundational truths, and won't be agitating for fundamental doctrinal changes while working as a representative of the church.

In the case of Ford, whom you mention, he came to the conclusion that a foundational pillar of our faith is in error. That is his right. But it is not a right to teach that position from a pulpit while being paid by the tithes of members of the church.

Votes on the doctrines of the church by the world church in General Conference don't have to be unanimous in order to be effective.



Well since we are going to receive eternal life as a individual not as a member of this or that church, doctrine, or theology, everyone should certainly personally decide what and whether they believe what has been given to us through Adventism. But if not the pillars of Adventism, where would you go, the churches of the Reformation are drifting aimlessly or back to the Catholic Church and its paganism, and I dont think Islam or the other world religions have anything to offer...the truth recides in its fullest within the Adventist movement, no other religious group, movement or church comes even close as far as I can see...


Edited by Reddogs (2008-11-21 15:12:29)

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#201376 - 2008-11-21 15:20:24 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: Reddogs]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19641
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Reddogs
[quote=John317]
Well since we are going to receive eternal life as a individual not as a member of this or that church, doctrine, or theology, everyone should certainly personally decide what and whether they believe what has been given to us through Adventism. But if not the pillars of Adventism, where would you go, the churches of the Reformation are drifting aimlessly or back to the Catholic Church and its paganism, and I dont think Islam or the other world religions have anything to offer...the truth recides in its fullest within the Adventist movement, no other religious group, movement or church comes even close as far as I can see...


I agree with you. I believe personally in the "pillars" of Adventism. I have no doubt of them. But I know others do, and if they do, they need to study deeply and decide what they believe and why.

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#244764 - 2009-05-20 13:23:11 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: John317]
guibox Offline


Registered: 2008-11-04
Posts: 280
Loc: British Columbia, Canada
Dr.Bacchiocchi (May he rest in peace), though conservative and an SDA apologist for the most part, was not afraid to follow the bible to whatever conclusion it came to, regardless of whether it followed the SDA party line. This is what has brought him under fire so much of the time by many conservative SDAs. Even though he is very apologetic and conservative in issues of dress, adornment, music and other standards, he has presented radical views that differ from the church's stance:

1) His view of EGW is blasted by conservatives everywhere (He believes as Graeme Bradford, Arthur Patrick, George Knight and a few others)

2) He moved away from the literal interpretation of the 1260 years, opting more for a symbolic interpretation

3) He presented a view that the 'little horn' was not the papacy all the time in Daniel but represents an 'anti-Christ' power that manifests itself in different ways at different times in history.

4) He moved away from a literal counting of the number '666' opting for a more symbolic interpretation

Though I disagreed with much of Bacchiocchi's conservative stances on issues of standards and music, I respect him greatly for being a true 'sola scriptura' believer no matter where it took him.
_________________________
www.corbel.theacaistory.com

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#244782 - 2009-05-20 15:51:12 Re: Dr Samuel Bacchiocchi, defender or shaker of beliefs? [Re: guibox]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19641
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: guibox
Dr.Bacchiocchi (May he rest in peace), though conservative and an SDA apologist for the most part, was not afraid to follow the bible to whatever conclusion it came to, regardless of whether it followed the SDA party line. This is what has brought him under fire so much of the time by many conservative SDAs. Even though he is very apologetic and conservative in issues of dress, adornment, music and other standards, he has presented radical views that differ from the church's stance:

1) His view of EGW is blasted by conservatives everywhere (He believes as Graeme Bradford, Arthur Patrick, George Knight and a few others)

2) He moved away from the literal interpretation of the 1260 years, opting more for a symbolic interpretation

3) He presented a view that the 'little horn' was not the papacy all the time in Daniel but represents an 'anti-Christ' power that manifests itself in different ways at different times in history.

4) He moved away from a literal counting of the number '666' opting for a more symbolic interpretation

Though I disagreed with much of Bacchiocchi's conservative stances on issues of standards and music, I respect him greatly for being a true 'sola scriptura' believer no matter where it took him.


I feel somewhat the same as you do about Dr. Bacchiocchi. I certainly didn't see him as an enemy. Actually I corresponded with him a number of times in the last year of his life, and I posted notices from his family about his health and his passing.

I certainly enjoy his books, and I favor freedom of expression and thought. I highly recommend his book on wine in the Bible. It caused me to decide to stop drinking. (Yes, I enjoyed drinking vodka, whiskey, etc. Haven't touched it in about 3 years.)

The first time I saw him, about 1976, I did think it was strange that this Seventh-day Adventist would almost brag about getting a medal from the pope.

All in all, I think Dr. Bacchiocchi was a positive experience for the SDA church. But to be completely honest, I do believe it is possible that he was influenced heavily by Jesuits of the church. After all, he was educated in a school where the professors had been trained in Jesuit philosophy. That doesn't mean, however, that he was not a genuine SDA. I don't see any reason to doubt His devotion to Christ or his love of the church.






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