. That's an interesting attempt to dodge the issue. I didn't go to the web to prove that married gay men fool around. I merely went to a New York Times article on gay marriage, and there I found that gay men who are supposedly married define marriage to include the occasional threesome.

that's pertinent, because we continually hear that gay marriage will strengthen marriage. But here we see quite the opposite: that those engaged in so-called gay marriage, not content with redefining it as including a man and a man or a woman and woman, now go ahead and defined it as including three persons or more.

Raising the issue of those heterosexuals who are unfaithful to their marital vows actually disproves your case, rather than proving it. Because people who engage in such practices recognize that it is a violation of marriage. No one has suggested that heterosexual marriage should include "the occasional casual three-way."

In addition, it is continually asserted that recognizing gay marriage is not a "slippery slope." But this New York Times article demonstrates that the slippage has already started in gay marriages.

As to your other arguments, that make no sense. Of course there will be those who will continue to marry, and carry on the race. The question is not whether some will, but whether enough will marry, stay together, and raise stable children so that civilization can be maintained. It's easy to make and procreate, letting the progeny grow up uncivilized like weeds and prey on civilization. Staying together, making a family, and raising responsible productive citizens is a difficult task, and society has a compelling interest to promote that.and that's why the state has secular reasons to support marriage. Anything that detracts from that goal should be discouraged.

why is choice important? Well, actually, it's been homosexuals, who made the issue of choice so important. Because if it's a choice, then it's not a civil rights issue, by any stretch of the imagination. Choices have consequences, to make the choice is to choose the consequences. So homosexuality is a choice, homosexuals cannot complain about the consequences. It has been the argument of homosexual community that it is not about choice, but that homosexuality is inborn. Again and again I have read disclaimers saying things like "who would choose such a situation?" As though that settled the issue. So I'm simply answering the chosen defense homosexual community.

finally, concerning your "sin is normal" comment. One of the continual arguments of the homosexual community concerning Romans chapter 1, is that or I homosexual, desiring someone of the same sex is "natural" for them, and therefore Romans one doesn't apply. I happen to agree with your comment. But that invalidates the "homosexual desire is natural" argument.

I am not defending gay marriage I have stated that in a lone post earlier in the dialogue.

Of course I see all the holes and I know many and have known many many gay people. Some celibate some randy and others in a relationship. I see all the foibles.I see the exact things in my little country SDA church.

And I thanku for taking the things I say and answering them. I want to hear what christians have to say about this. Thats Why I started this.
I dont want to hear the usual rhetoric or scriptures or fear tactics. I have heard them all.

and know full well what progay theology says about Romans and all that.

I didnt dodge the issue of gay men having sex with other men or woman. what am I supposed to say that? I affirm how marriage is not taken seriously by both straight or gay. Christian or non christian.

I am not under the illusion that all married homos will not stray.

The society will pay a price for passing gay marriages. YES INDEED!!

We have already paid a heavy price for fornication (not permitted by GOD) ,adultry (Commanded a HUGE NO-NO by GOD in the HOLY Decalogue) ,divorce (given cause of the hardness of the hetersexual hearts) in our churches. All three EVILS in my own family also. My mom fornicated at a drive in movie(most likely) with a boy. then She married another man and passed him off as my father in a pretended Secret Marriage . Then my mom divorced him less than two years later. I didnt find out till 15 years later. The christians in herlife just blush,gossipped and maybe a little flustered but not seething and wrathful and vengeful as they are with Homosexual sins.

And Ichabod I think you totally missed my point in all this and if it is heard there is a nod maybe and thats about it.














My point exactly!

'We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal. that they are endowed by their CreatorJESUS with certain unalienable Rights( Absolute).'

and what rights do we as americans have?

What freedoms does this fair country give its citizens? That GOD gave already that America is slowly figuering out.

Apparently I have missed your point. What is it? In one simple declarative sentence.

I cannot speak for others and how the deal with marriage. I can only tell you that my wife and I--Lord willing-- will celebrate our 40th anniversary this coming December. And to quote the late Ruth Graham, when asked if she and husband Billy had considered divorce, she said,"Divorce, never. Murder, often." :)

One point is whether we agree or gisagree all americans have the right to marry whom they want(one partner hopefully).

and Second which is lost on most as well is most chritians got it wrong regarding what they call minisering to others.

Cause they are offended and think of homos as inferior.



























































they dont see it

Actually, I have answered both points.

Nobody"has the right to marry anyone they want." I do not, you do not. We both have precisely the same right to marry. I am not currently eligible for marriage, because I am already married. So although I might want to marry someone else, are not eligible to do so. Even if I were single, I would not be able to marry "Anybody I want." I could not marry a woman who was already married, nor an unmarried woman under a certain age, nor an unmarried woman of the appropriate age who did not want to marry me.

No matter how much I might claim to love someone else, even if it was true in some absolute sense, that still would not give me the right to marry.

Any eligible male may marry any eligible female, provided both are willing. I have that right. You have that right.

as far as your second point goes, I'm not certain what you mean by "ministering to others." We are all sinners. Jesus seemed to think that spiritual sins such as pride and envy were the worst. Makes sense to me, if for no other reason than that it's almost impossible to minister effectively to the proud and the envious.

pride and envy are tolerated and even embraced by churches.
actions ,day after day and generation after generation, speak louder than words.

its interesting that me sharing my story and facts regarding the HATRED of many christians toward homos gets a passing nod. Like its no big deal.











cause its not a big deal. Its ok! Its acceptable! status quo.

Be a man dont be a pantywaist! Playfootbal. Ruff up that guy! Make it hurt! Injure! Maim! lets go to war! Kill! just dont kiss him.





BTW congratulations on the 40th!

I laugh at the Grahams quote. I fully understand!
I adore that woman.

Much of the people here dont usually comment on my comments So I actually was startled when someone actually engaged me more than a token post.

Thanku for your thoughtful responses. Even though we still disagree.

Shouldnt the church be horrified more on how they treat segments in our society than they are by homosexulas drawing a breath?

Regarding all the sexual sins that mankind commits over and over again... The societies ills that comes from Divorce,Fornication, and Adultry-

growing up without both parents,
sexual diseases,
out of wedlock births,
jail,
drug abuse,
depression,
prostitution,
etc.
Doesnt make the church get up on its hind legs like homosexualty


why??????????????????????????????????????????????

Why do you keep repeating this erroneous over-generalization? Maybe I am naive, but most Christians that I know of who are against same sex marriage do so because the God of the Bible calls it an abomination!!!

You may claim to be NOT pro-gay, but the tone of your arguments sound to me like you are arguing from both sides of the issue.

Gerry

Christians are against it cause its an abomination? There is so much more going on in their own hearts about than that -they use the Bible to back it up YES!


.............- I have a list a mile long on what God calls an abomination and the christians choose this ONE thing as the abomination to get their panties in a bundle about?

sure its call an abomination!
amen it is!

I will share a few other abominations so our church can march in the streets and political campaigns/rallys and bullying phone calls and have rightouse indignation about, and fear, and seethe about the other abominations. since u think thats the Number ONE reason!



A proud look
a lying tongue
hands that shed innocent blood
a heart that deviseth wicked imaginations
feet that runneth to do mischief
A false witness that speaketh lies, and he that soweth discord among brethren.

I just mentioned 7 things God hates- 7 abominations.


I will leave out a hundred others like cursing parents, false scales, and idol worship.

The proof is in the plum pudding.

I am repeating with over the top generalizations cause so many are clueless. no one speaks of the things I am sharing. Nothing. It all proves my point. It is wicked what they are doing. And u say.
yea but yea but yea but...[screaching] Its an abomination.

the church dont get it.


ohh well....welcome to the Body of Christ without the head or heart.

Does anyone here understand what I am driving at.


oh about both sides of the issue...






I am gay and a christian- hence both sides I see.