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#175380 - 07/03/08 01:54 AM Today you will be with me in paradise
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Can anyone explain to me the meaning of this text:

John 23:42-43
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Didn't Jesus spend three days in the tomb? How could Jesus say that "today you will be with me in paradise"?

Can this mean that Jesus body was in the tomb but his "spirit" went to heaven for those three days?
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#175388 - 07/03/08 03:09 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
Redwood Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Original Greek did not have any punctuation. So, simply move the comma to "truth today," instead of "truth, today". It will make things much more consistent with the rest of scripture. Don't you think?
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#175403 - 07/03/08 05:29 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
Amelia Administrator Offline
Here Forever, by Request :)

Registered: 07/30/01
Posts: 17798
Loc: Out standing in a field
Originally Posted By: doctorj
Can anyone explain to me the meaning of this text:

John 23:42-43
42 Then he said, "Jesus, remember me when you come into your kingdom." 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."

Didn't Jesus spend three days in the tomb? How could Jesus say that "today you will be with me in paradise"?

Can this mean that Jesus body was in the tomb but his "spirit" went to heaven for those three days?


Jesus made this statement while on the cross. The moment the other man asked to be remembered, he had chosin Jesus and therefor God. With that choice came everlasting life. God-1, devil -zip. tthumbsup
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#175404 - 07/03/08 05:32 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: Redwood]
cricket Offline


Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4747
Through other glasses, it could mean..."Assuredly, I tell you (because of what I've done) today, you will be with us in paradise."

That verse is in Luke.

Jesus died sometime after the ninth hour on a Friday. The ninth hour being about 3:00 in the afternoon. (See Luke 23:44)

Sometime before "very early in the morning" on the first day of the week--Sunday, He was discovered to be missing from the tomb. (See Luke 24:1-3)

He did not spend three days in the tomb, but rather rose from the dead on the "third" day.

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#175406 - 07/03/08 05:46 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: cricket]
Amelia Administrator Offline
Here Forever, by Request :)

Registered: 07/30/01
Posts: 17798
Loc: Out standing in a field
Quote:
Through other glasses


Bifocals
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"Earth - insane asylum for the universe." - Maxine

" Do not love the world or anything in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him..."1 John 2:15-16

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#175411 - 07/03/08 06:24 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: Redwood]
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Original Greek did not have any punctuation. So, simply move the comma to "truth today," instead of "truth, today". It will make things much more consistent with the rest of scripture. Don't you think?

That is all very nice, but I cannot find a translation that gives it that treatment. I have considered the following translations and paraphrases:
  • New Life Version: 43 Jesus said to him, "For sure, I tell you, today you will be with Me in Paradise."
  • Amplified Bible: 43 And He answered him, Truly I tell you, today you shall be with Me in Paradise.
  • New International: 43 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
  • King James Version: 43 And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.
  • and so on . . .

Can you point me in the direction of a translation that treats it with a comma shifted or a paraphrase that gives it that meaning.
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#175412 - 07/03/08 06:33 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
cricket Offline


Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4747
The Clear Word, an interpretive paraphrase of the scriptures, reads:

Jesus turned His head toward him and said, "I promise you today, when I return with the glory of my Father, I will take you home with me to paradise."

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#175413 - 07/03/08 06:42 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: cricket]
cricket Offline


Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4747
Here's another 14 versions: Luke 23:43

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#175415 - 07/03/08 06:48 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
John317 Moderator Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7371
Loc: CA


Redwood has a good point. Here is how Rotherham's Emphsized translation reads in Luke 23: 43, "And he said unto him-- Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

The Concordant Literal New Testament reads similarly.

The punctuation must be determined by context and theology, not the other way around, because, as Redwood pointed out, the punctuation is not part of the original.

It is more consistent when translated in this way because Jesus Himself said on Sunday morning that he had not yet ascended to his Father.

Luke 23: 43, then, is to be understood as Jesus telling the thief, "Although it appears that this is the end, I am promising you this very day, that you will be with me in my Kingdom."

The important promise Jesus was making to him was that the thief would be in Christ's kingdom.

There are a few additional points that show Jesus did not promise the thief he would be with Him in Paradise that same day.

First, it is highly unlikely that the thief himself died on Friday. It usually took the victims of crucifixion over a day to die. Jesus died more quickly than expected, which is why Pilate was astonished to learn that Jesus was already dead on Friday afternoon.

Second, notice that the dying thief asked that Jesus remember him when Jesus would come into His kingdom. The Amplified Version reads, "when you come in your kingly glory." Literally, "when you come into your reign." Jesus' kingdom, or reign, is yet future. Jesus has not yet "come into His kingdom." Jesus didn't come into his kingdom when he died. He will come into His kingdom when he comes the second time with all his holy angels. (Compare Matt. 16: 27; 24: 27, 30, 37, 39; 25: 31; Dan. 7: 13, 14, 18, 22, 27; Rev. 14: 14; 20: 4-6.)

Also, the wonderful news is that since death is an unconscious sleep in the grave, it will seem to the thief and others who have died that only a moment has passed between their deaths and the resurrection.
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#175416 - 07/03/08 06:50 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: cricket]
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Another 14 versions and still not one that has the punctuation any different. They all have the "today" after a comma.

Has anyone got the "Clear Word" version to see if it is any different?
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