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#175417 - 07/03/08 06:54 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
cricket Offline


Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4766
Yeah. I posted the Clear Word version a few posts back...take a look.

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#175418 - 07/03/08 06:54 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: John317]
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: John317
Redwood has a good point. Here is how Rotherham's Emphsized translation reads in Luke 23: 43, "And he said unto him-- Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

The Concordant Literal New Testament reads similarly.

The punctuation must be determined by context and theology, not the other way around, because, as Redwood pointed out, the punctuation is not part of the original.

It is more consistent when translated in this way because Jesus Himself said on Sunday morning that he had not yet ascended to his Father.

At last a translation that has that different emphasis. That seems really clear to me now. Thanks John317.
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#175419 - 07/03/08 07:25 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
John317 Global Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7567
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: doctorj
.... I cannot find a translation that gives it that treatment....

Can you point me in the direction of a translation that treats it with a comma shifted or a paraphrase that gives it that meaning....


Although some of this info was just posted, I think it will be good to give it again along with some additional information and details:

Rotherham's Emphasize Translation is one of the most highly regarded literal translations in English and was published in 1868, Kregel Publications, Grand Rapids, Michigan 49501. It is widely used by serious Bible students and scholars. See: http://www.studylight.org/info/copyright/bible/reb.html

This translation of Luke 23: 43 reads: " "And he said unto him-- Verily I say unto thee this day: With me shalt thou be in Paradise."

The Concordant Literal New Testament reads, "And Jesus said to him, 'Verily, to you am I saying today, with Me shall you be in paradise.'"

See also Lamsa's footnote in the New Testament From Ancient Eastern Manuscripts. The footnote reads, "Ancient texts were not punctuated. The comma could come before or after today."

An additional point of interest on Luke 23: 43 is that one of the most ancient manuscripts of Luke, the 4th century Codex Vaticanus, has a space between letters in only one place, and that place is after the word "today." This shows the copyist was indicating the text should read, "Truly I am saying to you today, with me shall you be in Paradise."





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Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#175420 - 07/03/08 08:24 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
Kevin H Offline


Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 645
Loc: New York
1. First the "Clear Word" is NOT a version. It's basically a very long sermon on the Bible paraphrasing Bible texts along the way.

2. All translations and versions have a fair amount of pharaphrasing and reflections of the translator's bias, or cermicial value (there are texts that if they gave more persice translations would be so rejected by people that they would not buy it). The punctuation comes from how the specific person or committee put them. We know that Jesus did not go to paradise that day.

3. However, another way of looking at it is how human nature is. Adam and Eve found fault with paradise, while Jesus and the thief were able to find paradise on the cross.

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#175421 - 07/03/08 08:41 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: Kevin H]
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
That all has cleared up now that I see the Rotherham's Emphasize Translation.

BUT I am still curious to know how our good friend who paraphrased the "Clear Word" treated this text. I know it is a paraphrase with a liberal sprinkling of added thoughts that perhaps should not be there, but I would like to see his theology, since he should have paraphrased it from an SDA Theological standpoint.

NB: I did not say the "Clear Word Bible", but rather, the "Clear Word" as it really is not a Bible in the strictest sense of the word.
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Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff

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#175422 - 07/03/08 08:55 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
cricket Offline


Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4766
Again, here it is as I posted in post number 175412:

The Clear Word, an interpretive paraphrase of the scriptures, reads:

Jesus turned His head toward him and said, "I promise you today, when I return with the glory of my Father, I will take you home with me to paradise."

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#175424 - 07/03/08 09:08 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: cricket]
doctorj Offline


Registered: 06/29/08
Posts: 150
Loc: Sydney, NSW, Australia
Originally Posted By: cricket
Again, here it is as I posted in post number 175412.

I am so sorry, I missed seeing it where you first quoted the Clear Word. Sorry, I just missed reading that response. Bad me.

AND thank you for pointing it out another time. I should be a little more observant in the future.
_________________________
Make sure you have finished speaking before your audience has finished listening. -- Dorothy Sarnoff

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#175436 - 07/03/08 12:24 PM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
pkrause Online   content


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 685
Loc: Lancaster,MA,USA
See Crickets reply above, she has already mentioned the Clear Word's translation of Luke 23:43. Just in case you don't have it here it is again:
Jesus turned His head toward him and said, "I promise you today, when I return with the glory of my Father, I will take you home with me to paradise."
I personally like the way its put here, more to the meaning that when Jesus comes at the end of time to get us.

pkrause

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#175441 - 07/03/08 12:54 PM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: pkrause]
Bravus Offline
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 6250
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
{deleted}


Edited by Bravus (07/03/08 05:06 PM)
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#175624 - 07/05/08 03:56 AM Re: Today you will be with me in paradise [Re: doctorj]
LifeHiscost Offline


Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 4055
Loc: Western United States
Originally Posted By: doctorj

Can you point me in the direction of a translation that treats it with a comma shifted or a paraphrase that gives it that meaning.



Maybe this text will make the meaning of the shift in the punctuation more consistent.

"Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God." John 20:17 KJV

Assuming where Jesus' Father was is paradise, this statement indicates He had not been back to paradise until some time after the day He had made the promise to the thief on the cross.
Regards! peace
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