For the first 500 years after Christ, universalism was the prevailing doctrine believed and taught by the Christian church.

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Prevailing.shtml
Universalism The Prevailing Doctrine Of The Christian Church During Its First Five Hundred Years

The author, J.W. Hanson wrote “The purpose of this book is to present some of the evidence of the prevalence in the early centuries of the Christian church, of the doctrine of the final holiness of all mankind. The author believes that the following pages show that Universal Restitution was the faith of the early Christians for at least the First Five Hundred Years of the Christian era. He has aimed to present irrefragable proofs that the doctrine of Universal Salvation was the prevalent sentiment of the primitive Christian church.

The salient statements and facts in all which will be found in these pages show that the most and ablest of the early fathers found the deliverance of all mankind from sin and sorrow specifically revealed in the Christian Scriptures.” And they were using the Bible in its original language. This online book also explains why and how this changed.

Up until now, after reading this post, many believers in eternal torment have said something like, “I truly sympathize with your sufferings, but it’s what the Bible says that matters, not whether or not it makes you suffer.” That’s why I want to say right at the outset that many of the links posted here show that a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible actually teach universal salvation, not eternal torment, or even annihilation.

I’m 69 years old. The idea that God lets anyone suffer forever has caused me more suffering (including a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78) than all the other sufferings of my life combined.

This suffering was caused by the fear produced by not being able to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever and wondering what this god would do to me for not being able to love him. Even though I was and am trusting for my salvation in what Jesus accomplished by His death and resurrection, through the power in the blood of His cross, I was, and still am unable to love a god who would let anyone suffer forever. Here are testimonies similar to mine.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/consequences.html

If you are like me and cannot love a god who would let anyone suffer forever, you can copy and paste (if necessary) the following urls into the address bar and find out that a literally (not interpretively) translated Bible actually teaches universal salvation, not even annihilation.

THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD

If necessary, copy and paste the following urls into the address bar.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

At the top and bottom of that same THE SAVIOUR OF THE WORLD page, there is the following link to fourteen other writings in the same series that are related to this same subject.
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

Don’t kid yourself. If anyone suffers forever JESUS IS DOING IT TO THEM

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

THE GOD THAT CALVINIST AND ARMINIAN ETERNAL TORMENTORS PROFESS TO LOVE

The eternal torment theology of the Arminian Christian relies on so-called “free will” and luck.

The god that Arminian eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

“Unless you are lucky enough to find out about my son during this lifetime, and even if you are that lucky, if you don’t have the good sense to cooperate with my son properly before you die, then I am going to raise you from the dead and I will sustain you alive in an inescapable state of eternal torment forever.”

The eternal torment theology of the Calvinist Christian relies on God alone, not “free will” at all. It is summed up by the word TULIP: Total depravity, Unconditional election, Limited atonement, Irresistible grace, and the Perseverance of the elect.

The god that Calvinistic eternal tormentors profess to love says to his fallen creatures

"I created most of you for the purpose of torturing you forever. However, I am going to choose a few of you undeserving ones to go to heaven where you will be happy forever." John Calvin said there will be infants a span long in hell because they were not among the elect. (A span is the distance between the tip of the thumb to the tip of the little finger.)

And then both the Arminian and Calvinistic eternal tormentors say that the feelings that they have for this god of theirs is “love.”

To read a description of eternal torment combination Calv-Arminianism see
ABSOLUTE ASSURANCE IN JESUS CHRIST – Charles Slagle
http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

This next url sums up the end result of all three
http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/circularity.htm

Without God’s sustaining power everyone would cease to exist.
So if anyone were to suffer forever, our all-powerful God (Who is Love in essence, not just loving) would be fully 100% responsible for it. We would have to conclude that any definition of the manifestation of “love-in-essence” includes eternally sustaining people alive in an inescapable state of suffering. What a travesty; what a revolting definition of love it is that God, Who is love personified, would grant any creature a will so strong that they can choose themselves into an irreversible state of never ending suffering!

Thank God the Bible does not teach such an insane idea!

Here is what the God that universal transformationists love and worship with complete abandon will do. He will complete the process of salvation for the first fruits of election, (the remnant chosen by grace), after the first resurrection. Then He will complete the process of salvation for the non-elect after the great white throne judgment. For some, it will include an experience in the lake of fire.

Jesus died on the cross and rose from the dead to guarantee that any necessary "kolasis aionian" (age-during corrective chastisement) will be 100% effective in changing wrong attitudes. All acts of sin have been forgiven for everyone. Attitudes cannot be forgiven. Attitudes must change. This is what the lake of fire which is the second death will do. It will last no longer than God sees is good for everyone involved.

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/TheLakeOfFire-Eby.html

You can Google up good articles on this subject by typing in kolasis aionian

Also see

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

For anyone who cannot love an endless-hell god ---
BIBLICAL CHRISTIAN UNIVERSALIST RESOURCES

Copy and paste the following urls into the address bar

http://www.christian-universalism.com/links.html

http://www.christianuniversalist.org

Also see

Information, and frequently asked questions in support of a correctly (literally, not interpretively) translated Bible teaching universal salvation,

http://www.tentmaker.org/bloglinks.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/sitemap.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/ScholarsCorner.html

http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/savior-of-the-world/index.htm

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/BibleThreateningsExplained.html

(If necessary, copy and paste them into your address bar)

and they will learn that the Bible actually teaches universal salvation instead, not even annihilation.

Or, they will go to the search engine at the top of http://www.tentmaker.org and will type in a key word or phrase from any argument or scripture passage. Ten articles will come up refuting the claim that the Bible teaches eternal torment or annihilation. Then they may click to the next page and ten more articles will come up, and so on and so on for many pages.

The many entries in my guestbook that is accessed towards the bottom of my front page at http://greater-emmanuel.org/Hope4You/

and the many entries at http://www.tentmaker.org/visitorcomments.htm
show just how much this information is helping people.

Also see http://www.tentmaker.org/articles/hells_fruit.html

This was the information that enabled me to recover from a twelve year nervous breakdown 1966-78, and it gives me great joy to keep learning that it is helping more and more other people too!! I’m 69

I am also going to guide you to the testimony of a man whose experience was almost identical to mine. Even the thought processes that took him into, through, and out of his breakdown are the same as mine. His name is Charles Slagle.
He answers the question, "Which view of salvation is true?"

http://www.tentmaker.org/books/Absolute-Assurance-in-Jesus-Christ.html

Tentmaker is a fantastic site. Good to see it mentioned here.

The Bible has so much to say on Universal Reconciliation and Universal Salvation! It is when we separate ourselves from preconceived paradigms that we are able to see.

rodgertutt, nice to see new members. Welcome. Let me give you a helpful hint about posting on internet forums. The shorter the post, the more likely people will read it. A post as long as this one will not be read by the vast majority of people that click on the thread. It is way, way, too long. Most will simply skip it.

First off, I'd like to say welcome to the Forum. It's always good to see new, especially participating, members.

I completely agree with you that the Bible does not teach endless suffering of the wicked. That's a very important point there.

But there are three major objections that I have to universal salvation:

1) It seems to me that it means people have no choice whether to be saved or not. They MUST saved whether they want to be or not. It would mean God doesn't take our decisions seriously and we are not free to choose. Everyone will be in heaven irrespective of personal choice.

2) It appears to me to go contrary to clear Bible teaching. In other words, I could only believe in universal salvation if I ignore much of the Bible. For instance, the first two chapters of 2 Thess. and the last 4 chapters of Revelation. There are many others that could be mentioned.

3) It means that faith in Christ has nothing to do with salvation, since even unbelievers will eventually be saved. I see this as contradicting the teaching found in such places as John 3: 16, where it clearly says that salvation is conditioned on belief in Christ. It is closely related to objection #1 because they both signify that it doesn't matter what anyone does: they will be saved no matter what. This brings up the question of why Christ came and suffered and died if everyone will be saved irrespective of faith and obedience.

Well John, you had no choice in your condemnation! Paul clearly teaches that we were condemned "in Adam". Why? Because we share Adam's fallen life. We are born sinful because we are born with a nature in full control and outside God. We are born into a lost race. Again, no choice!



When did Christ save you, John? If you say when you believed then Christ must die again and again. No, you were unverisally saved "in Chirst" long before you were born. Christ has (past tense) saved all men in Himself. That's universal.



What about the EGW statement where she has babies, who died before they believed, in heaven? Yes, if you reject God's universal salvation then you must take the curse of the law (God must abandon you because you have told him to essentially get lost)

We are ALL saved unless we decide we don't want to be.

"No one can come to Christ unless the Father who sent Him draws him." (John 6:44)

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

"And I, if I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all mankind unto Myself." (John 12:32)

Welcome rodgertutt

It is sad to hear that you suffered because of a wrong teaching! The Holy Scriptures never taught about eternal damanation, it is just man who has interpreted things the wrong way.

I side with John317 here in saying that teaching or believing in a universal salvation is wrong and dangerous, although Christ's intent is to save as many of us as He can, there are some pre-requisites and not all will be saved.

It is however a teaching of the ecumenical movement to preach so, one Christ for all, that is a dangerous teaching and it will lead many astray!

It is wrong to believe in this such as this:



The preaching was OK, till he got to hell, then he went off the tracks, Hell as the bible teaches was created for the devil and will only be around after the 1000 years when Christ comes with final judgement, the "eternal" part only means these souls and the devil will burn once and be eternally gone.

Also people are not devils, they are possessed or influenced by the devils, and furthermore, hell is not fuelled by coal but rather it rains from heaven (The fire in the burning lake) similarly to what happened in Soddom and Gomorrah!

Here's a link that teaches the truth about Hell: The truth about hell

I am wondering what Bible text or texts, or what statements by Ellen White, teach that we are all saved UNLESS we decide we don't want to be saved?


1) John 3: 16 and other Scriptures say plainly that "whosoever believes in Him [Christ] should not perish but have everlasting life."

It is necessary to "believe in Christ."

2) 1 John 5: 12-- "He who has the Son has the life; he who does not have the Son does not have the life."

It is necessary to have Jesus Christ.

3) John 3: 3, "Most assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the Kingdom of God."

It is necessary to be born from above or of the Holy Spirit.

It is not enough simply never to have made a deliberate or conscious decision that one does not want salvation. One must want salvation and continually choose Jesus Christ.

Well said. You have proved my point ...

Besides the fact that the Bible plainly does not teach universal salvation but the eternal death of the wicked (as in Mal. 4; Isaiah 1: 28; 2 Thess. 2 and 3; Rev. 19 & 20; Luke 16: 19ff), there is also the fact that universal salvation was not taught by such early Christian leaders or writings as Clement of Rome, Ignatius of Antioch, Polycarp of Smyrna, The Epistle of Barnabas, The Didache. The last paragraph of the Didache gives basically the same view on end-time events as Seventh-day Adventists have believed.

(sigh)

May I remind you again of the majority of the human race who, through the ages, have never heard of your theology. Yes universal salvation covers them also and their fate depends on the choices they make and the things they do. It is not at all as complicated as Paul teaches. mel

You are saying, then, that we cannot depend on what Saint Paul taught about salvation.

Universal salvation means that all will be saved, and if all will ultimately be saved--including those who reject God and do the worst evil without repenting-- it can only mean that salvation does not depend at all on what people do or wish.

The Bible plainly contradicts this.

And?

Isn't that what the gospel commission is all about? As I understand it, it is important to preach the gospel to people who do not know it because if they do not hear it or respond in a positive way to Christ, they will be lost. Christ is the only way to salvation. There is no other way.

Isn't that what the Bible teaches?

Do you believe that God would have been right if He had chosen to leave mankind to the consequences of sin without any plan to save us through the death of Christ?

Or do you believe that God was obligated, or had, to save anyone?

Will any people be lost? Will the devil himself finally be saved?

"The Lord is not slack concerning His promise, as some count slackness, but is longsuffering towards us, not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance." (2 Peter 3:9)

I think you'll be surprised to find that one day those you LEAST expect will have received eternal salvation--and...get this...and will have come to repentance. Yep. I'm saying what you can't imagine I'm saying.

Good Post. Yes, Christ died for ALL. You have to choose to not be saved. Do you accept the cross or not?

The point I am making through all this is that the Bible teaches that one must repent and believe the gospel, put their faith in Christ, and be born again, in order to see the kingdom of God.

It is not true that all people will finally repent and be saved. Many will be lost because they did not believe in Christ and accept the gospel.

The Bible does not teach universal salvation. We need to be clear about that.

One must choose to be saved. It is not enough merely never to have said, "I don't want to be saved."

In the judgment, the question will not be, "Did you ever reject Christ?" The question will be,"Did you accept Christ as your Savior and Lord?"

Nowhere does the Bible or Ellen White teach that the way to be saved is simply never to reject Christ. That is a false, dangerous doctrine. That would mean we could live however we please and be assured of salvation just so long as we don't say that we do not want salvation. Nothing could be further from the truth.

There will be people lost who claimed they wanted to be saved, but they did not put their claims into practice. There is such a thing as false faith-- it is called presumption. It is claiming salvation without fulfilling the conditions.

There are conditions to salvation. A condition is the placing of one's full confidence in Christ and accepting Him as one's personal Savior and Lord.

That is a basic tenet of the Christian faith.

Maybe you could explain further what you mean by these words such as FULL confidence etc. What does that mean to you personally? What are the conditions that you see? What claims must be put into practice?

Redwood says ... the question of salvation will be ...



John317 says the question will be ...



I think we are on the same wave length. What do you know?

OR ...

I am going to guess that you feel these two things are different. My Lord died on the cross and the question is ... Do I accept that or not. Do I accept Christ as my Savior .... I accept Him as the provider of salvation ... YES !!!

If a person simply never utters the words, "I reject salvation," will he necessarily be saved?

Is that what the Bible teaches? Can I go on living in direct and deliberate violation of God's will and never repent and still be saved simply because I never utter the words, "I reject salvation and Christ"?

"For God so loved the world that He gave His One and Only Son so that whosoever believes in Him shall not perish but have everlasting life."

Notice it does not say, "whoever does not deliberately reject Him will be saved."

He died for ALL. Another word might be 'whosoever'. He died for each one of us. We are saved. We have two choices ... Accept our saved status. OR Reject our saved status.

Yes, He did die for each one of us. I completely agree. But His dying for me does not mean I am saved without any decision on my part to ACCEPT Christ.

What if a person does not consciously and deliberately reject Christ? In your understanding, is the mere fact that he has never rejected salvation or Christ sufficient to save a man apart from positive faith and trust in Him?

Some one wrote that little babies will be carried by angels to their mother's arms at the resurrection. do you believe that? mel

This isn't the gospel Christ commissioned the church to spread! What you are teaching is "another gospel" (although God accepts us in our ignorance).

You see Christ didn't die instead of the sinner. Paul is clear - "When One died all died"! Christ's death was not one man dying for all men, but all men dying in Christ. When Christ died ALL mankind was legally justified in Him. That's universal.

The way I understand it is that Christ's death as reversed our condemnation in Adam. Therefore I believe that all babies (although sinners) are born under grace (EGW eludes to this). At the age of accountability the HS will convict them of their need of Christ.

The HS does this through various means, but the best is the preaching of the gospel. However many have never heard the gospel (and will never hear it). To these billions the HS works through nature...through conscience, etc. [See Romans chapter 1] When conviction comes that person then as the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it.

Rob

-PC- YI
-PT- The Youth's Instructor
-DT- 04-01-58
-AT- Bereavement
-PR- 03

As the little infants come forth immortal from their dusty beds, they immediately wing their way to their mother's arms. They meet again never more to part. But many of the little ones have no mother there. We listen in vain for the rapturous song of triumph from the mother. The angels receive the motherless infants and conduct them to the tree of life. Jesus places the golden ring of light, the crown upon their little heads.

Sure. By "full confidence," I'm referring to what the Bible means when it speaks of saving faith. It's a complete rather than a partial trust in God. Such trust leads to obedience to God. It takes God at His word and is based on Bible promises. It leads to conformity to God's law. It does not cause us to "draw back to destruction," but to "believe to the saving of the soul" (Hebrews 10: 39). It cannot exist without corresponding works. It is not a mere claim. It may be compared to a man's putting his full weight on a rope dangling high above the ground. He won't do that if he does not have full confidence that the rope will hold him.

The Bible tells us plainly what the conditions are of salvation. "Whosoever believes in Him will not perish but have everlasting life."

What does the Bible mean by belief? It means the same as saving faith. It means having full confidence and trust in Him. It does not mean an intellectual belief merely. It's a practical faith, something we do and that affects my very life, and is not something I merely talk about. It means a living faith, the sort of faith that leads to obedience, the very same kind of faith that Paul speaks of in Romans 1:5 and 16: 26.

The claim to believe in Christ must be put into actual practice. See James 2: 14-26 and 1 John 1, 2, 3, 5. If I really believe it as I claim to, my life will show it and people will know by my life and actions whether I'm a Christian.

One word: Legalism!

Yes, Ellen G. White wrote that. Do you believe everything Ellen White wrote?


And what do you take her words there to mean? How do you apply them in terms of the urgency and necessity of the proclamation of the gospel?

James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rahab was a prostitute. She has sex with men for money, yet she put her life on the line to save the spies because of her faith in God. Her faith was demonstrated in what she did.

According to your legalistic teaching she would have never been saved because she was still a prostitute. See where bad theology can take you?

Rob

No!

Do you believe in universal salvation? Do you believe that all will ultimately be saved in God's kingdom? That is the real issue here on this thread.

Do you believe everything else that Ellen White says regarding salvation? Why select these particular words?

Why not the following as well?---

"There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6.

Step To Christ, The Test Of Discipleship.

I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord.

If you take only the Bible as evidence of truth, and insist on the Bible and the Bible only, why should I take your quote of Ellen White seriously in this case? It is a bit disingenuous to say the least. It would be like my calling Marx a liar and a fraud and then turning around and trying to persuade someone of the truth of something by quoting Marx. How much sense does that make?

Do I believe what Ellen White wrote about her vision? Yes, I do, but I know that you don't.

Ellen White did not mean for her vision of children in heaven to be taken and used to build a theology of salvation. We base our theology of salvation on the Bible and the Bible alone, not on the visions of Ellen White, true as we (as I) believe those to be.

So I would ask you, do you believe in universal salvation? --- that is, that everyone will eventually be saved in the kingdom of God?

That is fine to have a belief about salvation, but is it going to be based on what the Bible teaches or is it going to be personal opinion or wishful thinking?

I notice that you do not deal with the texts that speak to this issue. For instance, what do you do with 2 Thess. 1: 7-10? These verses speak plainly of people who will be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again, 2 Thess. 2: 8 speaks of "the lawless one" who will be "consumed" and "destroyed" when Christ returns. How, also, about Malachi 4 and Isaiah 1: 28? The latter plainly says those who forsake the Lord will be "destroyed" and "consumed." It means to be destroyed utterly. The Modern Language Bible reads, "annihilated."

Not only does one have to ignore such verses as those in order to maintain universal salvation but one must also jettison nearly everything Ellen White ever wrote on the subject. I find both of those things very troublesome indeed.

But if you consider that "legalism," then I am joining Ellen White and many others such as Paul and James and Peter and Jesus Himself, who also taught the above. That puts me in some excellent company. Did Jesus and Paul teach a faith which does not lead to obedience to God?

Jack Sequeira also teaches that true faith leads to obedience to God, does he not? It certainly does not lead to disobedience. That would be a strange faith indeed that leads us to disobey God, wouldn't you agree?

Do you believe that Ellen White's Steps To Christ and Paul's letter to the Romans teach legalism? Both teach exactly what I have said above and which you claim is "legalism." Paul said it over and over, that he proclaimed the gospel in order to bring about the obedience that springs from faith. That is the very kind of obedience-- the very sort of faith and trust-- that God is looking for. See Romans 1: 5 and 16: 26. It is the kind of faith that our father Abraham had. Also the kind Jesus had.

I think I know what you are saying here Rob. Personally .... I am a 'babe' IN Christ. I will remain a 'babe'. But HE counts me a 'mature'. Praise God. But, I will only become 'mature' when I SEE His Face at the second coming. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... I will be changed. Until then ... I will remain a babe with only "partial trust" which only leads to 'partial conformity to God's word'. When I see His face ... I will then be changed to total conformity.