James 2:25 In the same way, was not even Rahab the prostitute considered righteous for what she did when she gave lodging to the spies and sent them off in a different direction? 26 As the body without the spirit is dead, so faith without deeds is dead.

Rahab was a prostitute. She has sex with men for money, yet she put her life on the line to save the spies because of her faith in God. Her faith was demonstrated in what she did.

According to your legalistic teaching she would have never been saved because she was still a prostitute. See where bad theology can take you?

Rob

No!

Do you believe in universal salvation? Do you believe that all will ultimately be saved in God's kingdom? That is the real issue here on this thread.

Do you believe everything else that Ellen White says regarding salvation? Why select these particular words?

Why not the following as well?---

"There are two errors against which the children of God--particularly those who have just come to trust in His grace--especially need to guard. The first, already dwelt upon, is that of looking to their own works, trusting to anything they can do, to bring themselves into harmony with God. He who is trying to become holy by his own works in keeping the law, is attempting an impossibility. All that man can do without Christ is polluted with selfishness and sin. It is the grace of Christ alone, through faith, that can make us holy.

The opposite and no less dangerous error is that belief in Christ releases men from keeping the law of God; that since by faith alone we become partakers of the grace of Christ, our works have nothing to do with our redemption.

But notice here that obedience is not a mere outward compliance, but the service of love. The law of God is an expression of His very nature; it is an embodiment of the great principle of love, and hence is the foundation of His government in heaven and earth. If our hearts are renewed in the likeness of God, if the divine love is implanted in the soul, will not the law of God be carried out in the life? When the principle of love is implanted in the heart, when man is renewed after the image of Him that created him, the new-covenant promise is fulfilled, "I will put My laws into their hearts, and in their minds will I write them." Hebrews 10:16. And if the law is written in the heart, will it not shape the life? Obedience--the service and allegiance of love--is the true sign of discipleship. Thus the scripture says, "This is the love of God, that we keep His commandments." "He that saith, I know Him, and keepeth not His commandments, is a liar, and the truth is not in him." 1 John 5:3; 2:4. Instead of releasing man from obedience, it is faith, and faith only, that makes us partakers of the grace of Christ, which enables us to render obedience.

We do not earn salvation by our obedience; for salvation is the free gift of God, to be received by faith. But obedience is the fruit of faith. "Ye know that He was manifested to take away our sins; and in Him is no sin. Whosoever abideth in Him sinneth not: whosoever sinneth hath not seen Him, neither known Him." 1 John 3:5, 6. Here is the true test. If we abide in Christ, if the love of God dwells in us, our feelings, our thoughts, our purposes, our actions, will be in harmony with the will of God as expressed in the precepts of His holy law. "Little children, let no man deceive you: he that doeth righteousness is righteous, even as He is righteous." 1 John 3:7. Righteousness is defined by the standard of God's holy law, as expressed in the ten precepts given on Sinai.

That so-called faith in Christ which professes to release men from the obligation of obedience to God, is not faith, but presumption. "By grace are ye saved through faith." But "faith, if it hath not works, is dead." Ephesians 2:8; James 2:17. Jesus said of Himself before He came to earth, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God: yea, Thy law is within My heart." Psalm 40:8. And just before He ascended again to heaven He declared, "I have kept My Father's commandments, and abide in His love." John 15:10. The scripture says, "Hereby we do know that we know Him, if we keep His commandments. . . . He that saith he abideth in Him ought himself also so to walk even as He walked." 1 John 2:3-6.

Step To Christ, The Test Of Discipleship.

I disagree. It is my belief that God's going stick with them through thick and thin...and wait, and wait, and wait, and wait...and wait until ALL come to repentance and accept Jesus as their Lord.

If you take only the Bible as evidence of truth, and insist on the Bible and the Bible only, why should I take your quote of Ellen White seriously in this case? It is a bit disingenuous to say the least. It would be like my calling Marx a liar and a fraud and then turning around and trying to persuade someone of the truth of something by quoting Marx. How much sense does that make?

Do I believe what Ellen White wrote about her vision? Yes, I do, but I know that you don't.

Ellen White did not mean for her vision of children in heaven to be taken and used to build a theology of salvation. We base our theology of salvation on the Bible and the Bible alone, not on the visions of Ellen White, true as we (as I) believe those to be.

So I would ask you, do you believe in universal salvation? --- that is, that everyone will eventually be saved in the kingdom of God?

That is fine to have a belief about salvation, but is it going to be based on what the Bible teaches or is it going to be personal opinion or wishful thinking?

I notice that you do not deal with the texts that speak to this issue. For instance, what do you do with 2 Thess. 1: 7-10? These verses speak plainly of people who will be "punished with everlasting destruction." Again, 2 Thess. 2: 8 speaks of "the lawless one" who will be "consumed" and "destroyed" when Christ returns. How, also, about Malachi 4 and Isaiah 1: 28? The latter plainly says those who forsake the Lord will be "destroyed" and "consumed." It means to be destroyed utterly. The Modern Language Bible reads, "annihilated."

Not only does one have to ignore such verses as those in order to maintain universal salvation but one must also jettison nearly everything Ellen White ever wrote on the subject. I find both of those things very troublesome indeed.

But if you consider that "legalism," then I am joining Ellen White and many others such as Paul and James and Peter and Jesus Himself, who also taught the above. That puts me in some excellent company. Did Jesus and Paul teach a faith which does not lead to obedience to God?

Jack Sequeira also teaches that true faith leads to obedience to God, does he not? It certainly does not lead to disobedience. That would be a strange faith indeed that leads us to disobey God, wouldn't you agree?

Do you believe that Ellen White's Steps To Christ and Paul's letter to the Romans teach legalism? Both teach exactly what I have said above and which you claim is "legalism." Paul said it over and over, that he proclaimed the gospel in order to bring about the obedience that springs from faith. That is the very kind of obedience-- the very sort of faith and trust-- that God is looking for. See Romans 1: 5 and 16: 26. It is the kind of faith that our father Abraham had. Also the kind Jesus had.

I think I know what you are saying here Rob. Personally .... I am a 'babe' IN Christ. I will remain a 'babe'. But HE counts me a 'mature'. Praise God. But, I will only become 'mature' when I SEE His Face at the second coming. In a moment in the twinkling of an eye ... I will be changed. Until then ... I will remain a babe with only "partial trust" which only leads to 'partial conformity to God's word'. When I see His face ... I will then be changed to total conformity.

This is a dangerous assumptionoften created by religions that promote the "secret rapture" and the 7 years tribulation, those who wait too long, will simply not make it and be destroyed, as the verse has been quote by John I ain't even going to bother requoting it!



Yet another mistake, you grow in Christ and become mature as you learn about Him whilst still here on earth, thus it becomes necesary to start understanding greater truths such as the function of the sanctuary, the state of the dead, and why everything revolves around the prophets and the law!

What you will inherit when He comes is a new body, an imortal one!

If you are saying that we will continue to grow in Christ until we see Him face to face, that is certainly true. Until that time, none of us will ever be able to say we have arrived spiritually. We will continue to fall short of God's glorious ideal, and we will continue to need His forgiveness and grace.

But nowhere does the Bible say that we should remain "babes" or that we will only become mature when we see Jesus at the Second Coming. See Eph. 4: 11-24; cf. Hebrews 11:40. No parent wants its child to remain a baby all the time. When a child does not grow up mentally or emotionally, we usually call it retarded or mentally challenged. It is definitely not something positive. And so Christ's command in Matt. 5: 48 is that we be "perfect" [mature] in our sphere as God is in His.