The babies my friend...the babies alone prove your theory false. And the people who have never heard the gospel. Do you believe that God is a just judge? Can he be just and condemn anyone just they have not "accepted" Him if they have never heard of Him?"

Bible says that the sheep are divided from the goats according to whether they love their neighbor. The gospel is the good news that Jesus died for all but whether they hear that or not they are included in the "all". mel

And babies are saved by Christ's doing and dying as is anyone else.

Romans 5:18 So then as through one transgression [Adam's] there resulted condemnation to all men, even so through one act of righteousness [Christ's] there resulted justification of life to all men.

Do you believe in universal salvation? Will everyone be saved? That is the subject of this thread. Answer that question first, and then we can go on to discussing the salvation of babies.

Does the Bible say that there will be people saved apart from personal faith in Christ? If so, where does it say this?

Are all babies who die as babies going to be saved? If that is true, then wouldn't it be best if everyone would die as a baby, since if they grow up, they may not be saved? It would appear that in your theory, people's chances of being saved decrease greatly as they grow older. Is that just? And where do you find support for these views in the Bible?

Are you going to base something as important as how people are saved on a description of Ellen White's vision? Do you really accord her that much authority when it comes to all her visions? What about her visions of the heavenly sanctuary? What about her hundreds of other statements regarding salvation? Do you trust all her statements as much as you do her statement about seeing the babies flying in heaven? I find it strange that people who admit they don't consider Ellen White an authority in anything else accept her statement about the children flying in heaven as if it was a part of Holy Scripture. Why?

(By the way, I do accept her as an authority, but subordinate to the Bible.)

Second, what is my "theory"?

Here is my "theory": Jesus Christ said, "I am the way, the truth, and the life. No one comes to the Father except through Me" (John 14:6).

How many can come to the Father apart from Christ? Answer: none.

"Assuredly, I say to you, unless one is born from above, he cannot see the kingdom of God" (John 3: 3).

Is it possible for anyone to see the kingdom of God without being born from above? Answer: Jesus' answer is that apart from being born of the Spirit, one cannot see the kingdom of God.

"Go into all the world and preach the gospel to every creature. He who believes and is baptized will be saved, but he who does not believe will be condemned" (Mark 16: 16).

According to this verse, how does one become saved? Answer: through hearing the gospel and believing it.

What did Jesus say will happen to those who do not believe the gospel? Answer: they will be condemned.

"Neither is there salvation in any other; for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved" (Acts 4: 5).

"This is the record, that God hath given to us eternal life, and this life is in His Son" (1 John 5:11).

"He that has the Son has life" (1 John 5:12).

"And he that has not the Son has not life" (same verse).

"He that believes on the Son has everlsting life; and he that believes not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abides on him" (John 3:36.

"But the scripture has concluded all under sin, that the promise by faith of Jesus Christ might be given to them that believe" (Gal. 3:22).

God would have been just if he had left every one of us to reap the consequences of sin, which is eternal death. It is only due to His love and grace that anyone has an opportunity to accept Jesus Christ and be saved. God did not HAVE to save anyone through belief in Christ.

Yes, God is a just judge.

He has revealed to us through His Word how He has chosen to save people, and it says plainly it is only through faith in Jesus Christ. It does not say it is through being a good person or by virtue of dying when very young.



Do you believe the Bible teaches that people are saved by works? That is what you appear to me to be teaching, that people can be saved because of what they do, and not by faith in Jesus Christ. Jesus did not give us two ways to salvation: one through belief in Christ and the other through loving one's neighbor. He is saying that many may claim to believe in Christ but the real test whether we really love and believe Christ is shown by whether we love our neighbor. Our life will tell whether we really believe or whether it is all just talk. (This is where the Pre-Advent Judgment comes into play.)

Yes, Jesus did die for all, but the Bible is clear (see above verses) that His death is appropriated only by placing one's faith in Him. Or do you believe that His death is appropriated to all regardless of faith? If so, where does it teach this?

The universal condemnation upon every child of Adam was reversed in Christ. All men were made righteous in Him. That's universal.



Clearly no....


Yes...Romans 1:19that which is known about God is evident within them; for God made it evident to them. 20 For since the creation of the world His invisible attributes, His eternal power and divine nature, have been clearly seen, being understood through what has been made, so that they are without excuse. 21 For even though they knew God, they did not honor Him as God, or give thanks; but they became futile in their speculations, and their foolish heart was darkened. 22 Professing to be wise, they became fools, 23 and exchanged the glory of the incorruptible God for an image in the form of corruptible man and of birds and four-footed animals and crawling creatures....2 14 For when Gentiles who do not have the Law do instinctively the things of the Law, these, not having the Law, are a law to themselves, 15 in that they show the work of the Law written in their hearts, their conscience bearing witness, and their thoughts alternately accusing or else defending them, 16 on the day when, according to my gospel, God will judge the secrets of men through Christ Jesus.

"Were" or "are"?

If all people "were made righteous in Him," doesn't that mean they are righteous in Him? Will God then destroy those who are righteous in Him? I think I know how you might answer this question, but I would like to see it.





OK, I thought so, based on our previous exchanges. Therefore, we clearly agree on the main question of this thread, which, of course, is whether there is universal salvation.

Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved. At least they could use some of your points in defense of universal salvation. For instance, they might pose the question, how could a just God condemn many millions of people after Christ has reversed their condemnation?

Again, I would like to hear how you would speak to that issue.

John317 ... You keep moving the bar. You ask so many questions and then you try to dictate which ones can be answered first. Robert answered your question about "universal justification" so why don't you just acknowledge it?

What happened to your statement "I accept all of her writings that were meant for publication".

Read verses 9-12, which you did not include: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...." Paul's point is that all mankind is justly condemned because all are equally sinful. Romans 3: 10 sums up all of Paul's evidence up to that point: "There is none righteous" on their own before God.


You will notice that those texts say absolutely nothing about their being saved through knowledge of nature. It only says that God has allowed himself to be known (though only partially) through His creation. So the context has to do with the justice of God in condemning all of humanity. It is not saying some people will be saved by that revelation in nature alone. The knowledge of him and of what is right and wrong only makes their condemnation. Everyone is a sinner, both Jews (with the Torah) and Gentiles (with nature). That is Paul's point. It is wrong to use the verses to say that people will be saved by obeying their sense of morality, apart from accepting the gospel of Jesus Christ.

The whole reason for the urgency of the gospel is on account of the fact that humans will die without it. Compare Romans 10: 10-18. If people will be saved without it, why go to every corner of the world, risking life and limb to proclaim the gospel to people who are already being saved by their knowledge of God through nature?

Since Romans 1: 19 does not show that people will be saved apart from faith in Christ, do you know of another Bible verse that does show this?