WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION

Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don’t see things the way you do.
And don’t jump all over them every time they do or say something you don’t agree with
– even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
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#176264 - 07/10/08 06:31 PM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: Redwood]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10414 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: By the way, I do accept her as an authority, but subordinate to the Bible.) What happened to your statement "I accept all of her writings that were meant for publication". Still good by me. Explain what you mean. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#176266 - 07/10/08 06:35 PM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: Redwood]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10414 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Redwood Quote: Where do you find the Bible or Ellen White teach "universal justification"? Do you believe in universal salvation? Will everyone be saved? That is the subject of this thread. Answer that question first, and then we can go on to discussing the salvation of babies. John317 ... You keep moving the bar. You ask so many questions and then you try to dictate which ones can be answered first. Robert answered your question about "universal justification" so why don't you just acknowledge it? Tell me how the bar was moved. The "bar" on this thread is the question whether there is universal salvation, not whether there is universal justification. So Robert is the one who moved the bar if indeed it has been moved at all. The original question or topic here was not universal justification, and I seriously doubt that Robert would want to imply that universal justification is closely connected to universal salvation. But I did acknowledge that he does not not believe in universal salvation, however. This is what I said: Quote: OK, I thought so [that you don't believe in universal salvation], based on our previous exchanges. Therefore, we clearly agree on the main question of this thread, which, of course, is whether there is universal salvation. Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved. At least they could use some of your points in defense of universal salvation. For instance, they might pose the question, how could a just God condemn many millions of people after Christ has reversed their condemnation? Again, I would like to hear how you would speak to that issue. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#176278 - 07/10/08 07:37 PM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: John317]
melvin mccarty Registered: 05/18/02 Posts: 645 Loc: B,C.	Well one thing is obvious. Inspired persons do not necessarily always agree with each other. If they did we would not have hundreds of churches all claiming to be right Even serious sensible SDA's do not all agree with each other...obviously. Now abideth faith, hope, and the 28 fundementals but thr greatest of these is love. mel
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#176282 - 07/10/08 07:56 PM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: melvin mccarty]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10414 Loc: CA	Yes, in life Peter did not always agree with Paul, but their writings do agree, although there are some who deny this (of course!). I can see your point about the many different churches and groups, but most of the time, these differences can be explained on the basis of the groups' history and origins. I would point out that the differences are not usually because of lack of clarity in the Bible. Often it is because not ALL of the Bible is being considered but only a select group of verses. I believe the Bible is self-consistent (although there are those, of course, who would disagree with me!). So it goes-- such is life. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#176283 - 07/10/08 08:01 PM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: melvin mccarty]
Redwood Swiss n Swedish American Registered: 12/09/06 Posts: 9048 Loc: A citizen of Heaven	Originally Posted By: melvin mccarty Well one thing is obvious. Inspired persons do not necessarily always agree with each other. If they did we would not have hundreds of churches all claiming to be right Even serious sensible SDA's do not all agree with each other...obviously. Now abideth faith, hope, and the 28 fundementals but thr greatest of these is love. mel _________________________ Another one of Woodies Goodies Love WON Another. Redwood the tree
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#176303 - 07/11/08 12:30 AM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15441 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 Read verses 9-12, which you did not include: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...." Paul's point is that all mankind is justly condemned because all are equally sinful. You will notice that those texts say absolutely nothing about their being saved through knowledge of nature. That's why you have to go on to Romans chapter 5 where Paul sums it up.... _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#176304 - 07/11/08 12:35 AM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15441 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 Why don't you make the case here that there is no universal salvation? By making your argument the way you have, you could give someone the mistaken impression that you believe everyone will ultimately be saved. Here's what I said early on: The way I understand it is that Christ's death as reversed our condemnation in Adam. Therefore I believe that all babies (although sinners) are born under grace (EGW eludes to this). At the age of accountability the HS will convict them of their need of Christ. The HS does this through various means, but the best is the preaching of the gospel. However many have never heard the gospel (and will never hear it). To these billions the HS works through nature...through conscience, etc. [See Romans chapter 1] When conviction comes that person then has the choice whether to reject God's gift or keep it. "To keep it" means that they have already been "justified to life 'in Christ'"! It's already theirs! Someone needs to tell them. Having stated that - many will reject it. Why? They don't need no stinking righteous because they are quite righteous in their own eyes. Hence, Christ's statement rings true: "I didn't come to save the righteous (i.e., the self-righteous - e.g. the Pharisees, etc), but sinners....." Edited by Robert (07/11/08 12:41 AM) _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#176305 - 07/11/08 12:45 AM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10414 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 Read verses 9-12, which you did not include: "For as many as have sinned without law will also perish without law...." Paul's point is that all mankind is justly condemned because all are equally sinful. You will notice that those texts say absolutely nothing about their being saved through knowledge of nature. That's why you have to go on to Romans chapter 5 where Paul sums it up.... What verse or verses in chapter 5 give evidence that people are saved through a knowledge of God acquired through nature? Romans 10: 11-18 describes the importance of the preaching of the gospel before people can put faith in God. Paul's point is that they can't believe and be saved unless a preacher first takes the gospel to them. See especially verse 14-17. That is why it is urgent. There is no second option to the proclamation to the gospel. The preaching of it and the acceptance of it mean the difference between life eternal and death. That's about as serious as anything can be. You agree? _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#176306 - 07/11/08 12:49 AM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10414 Loc: CA	OK, very good, thanks. I understand what you are saying here, and I think we are pretty much in agreement on that. _________________________ Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#176322 - 07/11/08 01:20 AM Re: WHY I BELIEVE THE BIBLE TEACHES UNIVERSAL SALVATION [Re: John317]
Fausto Registered: 06/24/08 Posts: 135 Loc: South Africa	Quote: Are all babies who die as babies going to be saved? If that is true, then wouldn't it be best if everyone would die as a baby, since if they grow up, they may not be saved? I was wondering about this, could it be that if the father/mother is not saved or taking up his/her responsibilities towards getting his/her whole immediate family under God's "umbrella" (redeemed) then they will not be saved?
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