Yes, you will be changed, but after you are changed, you are still the "self" whom we know by the name of Robert. If your wife is saved, she will recognize you and you will recognize her. You don't become a different person at the resurrection or the Second Coming. The sinful nature will be gone, of course, but that doesn't mean the "self" is gone. Perhaps you are equating the "self" with sin, but I do not believe that is what the Bible teaches. There is nothing necessarily wrong or sinful about being a "self," as far as I can see.

Doesn't "the old self go" prior to the Second Coming? 2 Cor. 5: 17 says, "If anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation." I understand that "old self" is what God wants to see gone before He returns for us. (Notice Christ returns for "us.")

It seems to me that this "old self" should already be dead in Christ before that time. See Romans 6: 6.

The faithful believers are the ones Jesus is coming for and the ones He will be taking to heaven with Him. Yes, He gives us new bodies, but it is really "us" who He wants with Him. He wants to take Robert home with him, not someone else. It is the dying man on the cross next to Him that Jesus promised, "YOU will be with me in paradise." I don't know how we can say it is not Robert's "self" or the dying man's "self" that will not be in heaven.

He comes for Paul and John and Peter and they all recognize each other and remember what happened in their lives on this earth. It is really them, the same person who went into the grave. They have the same thoughts and memories, the same characters, the same personalities. And assuming that by God's grace, you and I are among that group, it will be really you and me there. If you go into the grave loving sin, you will come out of the grave loving sin. On the other hand, if you go into the grave loving Jesus and doing His will, you will come out of the grave with the same attitude.

Where does the Bible say Jesus will not take "you" and "me" to heaven?

Jesus said, "I will come again and receive you to Myself, that where I am, you may be also."
1 Thess. 4: 17 says that "we shall always be with the Lord."

Therefore in what sense will "this self" not be taken to heaven? Are you simply talking about the "sinful self"?

Do you honestly think that there is something wrong or sinful about wanting to live and not lie in a cold grave for eternity?

Didn't God create us with a desire to live? Without love of life, there is only indifference to life or even perhaps hatred of life. It seems to me being indifferent would be sinful.

The sin lies, not in wanting to live, but in being only interested in our own personal survival and in being indifferent about the survival or welfare of others.

You have an important point, I think. As we see what God is able to do, and what value God places on us, it should help us to treat ourselves as valuable also, and then to transfer that value to other people. It doesn't make sense to think that God loves me more than He loves everyone else on earth. This is what the Holy Spirit wants us to see. But we won't see it unless we first see the infinite love of God for us personally. Once we understand His love, God intends that same amazing love to be the motive for sharing it with everyone with whom we come in contact.

The Bible doesn't teach the love of self. What you are teaching is in line with Lucifer....

Rob

If EGW were alive she would correctly accuse you of teaching the holy flesh doctrine. We are "in Christ" or accepted "in Him" through faith. "In Christ" you have a humanity that is a new creation, not in yourself. The only thing that's being renewed in you is your inner most mind (what Paul terms the "inner man").



John - that's totally out of context. BTW, this is subtle legalism once again....

Our old life died where? Literally, "in Christ"! That's because when One died, all died. Christ's death was a corporate death. The human race died "in Him" because all of us share the fallen life of Adam.

Christ, at the incarnation, assumed this life and by His birth, life, death and resurrection He took a perfect humanity to heaven. By faith you are positively righteous, not in yourself, but in the Beloved. That's the gospel....

Rob

"Desire to live"? Hmmm....I would say "no"! Why? There was no death and hence there was no sin. Immortality was a given....They didn't know of death.


You see God created Adam & Eve with a love that was outward. Adam lived, not for himself, but for Eve. Her welfare...her life...her happiness was his sole ambition. And Eve lived for Adam, until the fall when the image of God was marred. Here's EGW:


"Man [i.e., mankind] was originally endowed with noble powers and a well-balanced mind. He was perfect in his being, and in harmony with God. His thoughts were pure, his aims holy. But through disobedience, his powers were perverted, and selfishness [i.e., the love of self] took the place of love [agape]. " [SC 17]

"Self-love, self-interest, must perish. But the law of self-sacrifice [agape love] is the law of self-preservation." [COL 86]

John 12:24 “He who loves his life loses it; and he who hates his life in this world shall keep it to life eternal."

Before the fall, Adam & Eve didn't understand the issues...they didn't understand the great controversy between God's agape love and Lucifer's system of self-love. They didn't see that the love of self brings all kinds of evils!

In heaven iniquity will not rise a 2nd time because those who by faith make it will then fully understand the issues. The only way for me to ensure my life isn't to guard it...to love myself... but rather to make you the object of my ambition. I will live for your good...your welfare...your wealth; not my own. In turn you will live for me. That's what EGW meant when she said,

"in heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love, will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them." [2T 132]

Note there's no self-interest...no self-love. The love of self is our problem, not our cure. Agape is the law of self-preservation.

Rob

"...The law of self-renouncing love [i.e., that love which is not self-seeking] is the law of life for earth and heaven...." [DA 19]


"Self-renunciation is the great law of self-preservation, and self-preservation is the law of self-destruction." [ST July 1-1897]

Well, Huston, we have a problem! We live in a fallen world under whose god has fully developed his system of iniquity. So, as I have stated before, if you live a life of "self-renunciation" - a life of "self-renouncing" love - in this world under its god, you will taste extreme poverty.

I'm not talking about poverty due to drug use...or mismanagement of funds. No, I'm talking about the result of living a life that "seeketh not her own, but another's wealth."

You see to make it in this world you must love yourself. You must work hard at making gains - unless you just win the lottery. How did you get there? Didn't you have to compete against others? So you got where you are at by the principle of self-seeking, which is essentially the love of self. This is earthliness!

The last generation of Christians, in order to fully reflect Christ, must set aside all their goodies gained through the love of self. Only then will they be able to fully reflect the love of Christ.

Like EGW states, "their earthliness [i.e., their self-seeking...their love of self] must be consumed [i.e.,, must perish], that the image of Christ may be perfectly reflected."

Until then we are falling short of God's agape love as seen in the life of Christ. Not to see the marked difference between Christ and ourselves is to be somewhat deceived.

Now, since we live in a fallen world, and because of the weakness of our flesh (i.e., as in "the flesh is weak"), EGW gives us this advice:

"There should be less proud self-seeking, less self-importance." [5T, 479]


Maybe the above comes down to Gerry's point....That is, we do our best in walking in the Spirit...and God makes up the difference...or something like that?!?

Anyway, that's the goal, but if we were the under law [the law of agape], our death would be required. Why?

To allow us to live would eventually bring the destruction of God's universe. One fallen person, indwelt with iniquity, would bring down all of it. That's why God confined Lucifer to this world. In fact if you look around at the planets around us it sure looks like we have been placed in isolation! I can't blame God one bit....

Rob