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#178787 - 07/31/08 02:45 AM Catholic - Muslim
Stan Jensen Administrator Offline
Carpe Diem!!!

Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 3433
Loc: 49.05° Lat- 122.3° Long
Which you feel is closer to your personal belief....

Catholic or Muslim and why?
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#178789 - 07/31/08 02:51 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: Stan Jensen]
Redwood Offline
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 6769
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Muslim ... they have a prophet.
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#178791 - 07/31/08 02:57 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: Stan Jensen]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7376
Loc: CA
Way closer to Catholics. While I disagree with many of the official beliefs of the Roman Catholic Church, I recognize them as fellow Christians who love Jesus Christ. I find it very easy to talk about Jesus and the Bible with Catholics.

On the other hand, I gave a New Testament in farci to traditional Muslim friends of ours, who are from Afghanistan, but the wife, who wears the Abaya, does not know how to read and the husband is not comfortable talking about Christ. Our families have been close for about 17 years now. Their oldest son is in training at the Loma Linda Medical Center, so I know he has taken some classes in the Bible, but he never talks about them. I've made arrangements through him to study the Qur'an with one of their Muslim teachers. The father was in jail for about 2 years after 9/11. He said he was very well treated, and in fact, sometimes when he gets angry at his wife (who is his cousin), he shouts that he wishes he was back in jail where he got good treatment and good food. He seems very serious when he says it, but later we enjoy a good laugh about that.
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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#178795 - 07/31/08 03:34 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: John317]
dgrimm60 Offline


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 3548
Loc: dickson tenn
HEY STAN

THIS is a good question but a hard question

0n the surface one might say catholic since
they claim to believe in JESUS.

so do the Mormons which also have a prophet
like the Muslims

I GUESS you could take any religious group
and try to compare the closeness to the ADVENTISTS FAITH

LIKE Baptist and ADVENTISTS same in baptism

like Jehovah Witness in same understand of state of dead.

but the best thing to do is compare the bible
with what you believe


dgrimm60

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#178811 - 07/31/08 05:05 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: Stan Jensen]
carolaa Offline


Registered: 03/22/05
Posts: 777
Loc: Texas
I think my beliefs are closer to Muslims because we believe our religion is a 24/7 lifestyle thing, we have similar dietary values, and modesty in dress. Muslims have great respect for Jesus as a prophet and for the Bible. They don't care too much for Catholics because of the idols and because they believe the Catholics changed a lot of the wording in the Bible.

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#178827 - 07/31/08 06:41 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: carolaa]
Neil D Offline
Today, I ain't for sale. Check back tomorrow.

Registered: 08/10/00
Posts: 12009
Loc: Ca., Id, Wa., Or. or somewhere...
I think that my beliefs are closer to SDA values than to either muslim or Catholics.... thinking reyes


And Stan.... tongue


PS are you back from BC campmeeting?
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#178857 - 07/31/08 06:48 PM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: Stan Jensen]
Redwood Offline
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 6769
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
OTOH .... We did get our Health Message from the Catholics.

(In a way)
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#178901 - 08/01/08 01:39 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: Redwood]
aldona Offline
Public Nuisance

Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 2859
Loc: On the outside, looking in
Originally Posted By: Redwood
OTOH .... We did get our Health Message from the Catholics.

(In a way)


I thought we got our Health Message from the Jews (Leviticus) - which is probably the same place the Muslims got theirs.

I think we have similarities to both the Muslims and the Catholics.

Random comments on similarities between us and Muslims:

We have a health message. (The Muslim health message is not just about not eating pork and not drinking alcohol, but includes things like washing, hygiene, proper relations between husband and wife, restrictions on women's responsibilities during menstruation/ pregnancy/ childbirth, and much more. They even have folk beliefs and semi-religious traditions about various natural remedies available in their part of the world (dates, pomegranates, etc) in much the same way that some Adventist teachings on charcoal, poultices, zwieback and hydrotherapy blur the line between health and religious doctrine.

We have a prophet (peace be upon her). The Muslims believe that God has always had His prophets to whom He gives revelation to guide His believers, and that Muhammad was the last and greatest prophet (after whom there are no new prophets). Adventists believe that God has always had His prophets to whom He gives revelation to guide His believers, and that Ellen White was the last and greatest prophet (after whom there are no new prophets).

Random Comments on similarities between us and Catholics:

Catholics have the Pope, who is infallible as a source of teachings and doctrines, and whose pronouncements cannot be questioned.

Catholics also revere the virgin Mary, whom they do not worship as God but who is there to point the way to God/Jesus and help mediate in the believer's relationship with God.

In the Adventist faith, we have Ellen White, who has been given both of these roles.

In fact, I have observed that Adventists ascribe much more infallibility to Ellen White than the Catholics do to the Pope. Observant Catholics seem to be more free to question what the pope says, and to follow their own conscience on matters like birth control, than Adventists do with Ellen White.

I'm sure there are many more examples. I can't think of any more at the moment (still a bit early in the morning here).

Aldona
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#178904 - 08/01/08 01:48 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: aldona]
Redwood Offline
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 6769
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
In fact, I have observed that Adventists ascribe much more infallibility to Ellen White than the Catholics do to the Pope. Observant Catholics seem to be more free to question what the pope says, and to follow their own conscience on matters like birth control, than Adventists do with Ellen White.


Good Morning Aldona.

Interesting. I hadn't thought of it in this way ... but there is much truth in this. Sad but true. My Catholic friend would openly question the Pope. But some of my SDA friends here on the forum believe that all Ellen said which was meant for publication ... is truth.

I do suppose that there are plenty in the middle. But it is alarming.
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Another one of Woodies Goodies
Brought to you by Redwood ... a better tree for a new tomorrow.


Redwood

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#178908 - 08/01/08 02:41 AM Re: Catholic - Muslim [Re: aldona]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 7376
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: aldona
Originally Posted By: Redwood
OTOH .... We did get our Health Message from the Catholics.

(In a way)


I thought we got our Health Message from the Jews (Leviticus) - which is probably the same place the Muslims got theirs.

I think we have similarities to both the Muslims and the Catholics.

Random comments on similarities between us and Muslims:

We have a health message.


But what is our health message and why do we have it? What is its purpose? Therein lies the big difference between Adventists and Jews and Catholic and Muslims.

Quote:
We have a prophet (peace be upon her).


Muslims say this automatically & perfunctorily every time they mention the name of Muhammad. We don't do this because we don't view her or any other prophet or apostle as anything but a mere human in need of God's grace and forgiveness, the same as Paul, Isaiah and Daniel.

Quote:
The Muslims believe that God has always had His prophets to whom He gives revelation to guide His believers, and that Muhammad was the last and greatest prophet (after whom there are no new prophets).


Yes, this is true. They also believe that Muhammad was greater than Jesus Christ, although the Koran talks about Christ returning and being resurrected at some future time. It says, though, that Christ never died on the cross but that it only seemed like he died.

Quote:
Adventists believe that God has always had His prophets to whom He gives revelation to guide His believers, and that Ellen White was the last and greatest prophet (after whom there are no new prophets).


Adventists do not teach that there will never be another prophet. It has never been our teaching as a church. Ellen White certainly never said such a thing.

I know, though, that this is the belief of some individual SDAs, but it is not based on anything in the Bible or in Ellen White's writings or even in anything published by the SDA church.

Ellen White and the church itself has always said we simply do not know if God will send another prophet. But if God does send another prophet, the test will be if that individual agrees with what God's prophets have said in the past. Just like Joshua was tested by whether he agreed with Moses, and so on.

Quote:
Random Comments on similarities between us and Catholics:

Catholics have the Pope, who is infallible as a source of teachings and doctrines, and whose pronouncements cannot be questioned.


There is some truth to this, but there is also some error. The error lies in the fact that the pope does not claim to be a prophet of God in the Biblical sense or, generally, to receive visions or dreams from God. He also does not claim-- as some falsely believe he does-- that none of his pronouncements or teachings can be questioned. He is only considered infallible when he makes pronouncements from the chair of St. Peter-- that is, when he speaks "ex-cathedra," in his official capacity of Vicar of Christ, which he rarely does.

The truth is that very many Roman Catholics do not pay much attention to what the Pope says. They do not understand most of what he says, nor, frankly, does it matter. The only thing that really matters is that the priests and professional religious understand. It is not considered of great importance for the laity to have more than a superficial understanding of the pope's pronouncements. It is enough for them to give their assent, attend confession from time to time, go to mass and give offerings, etc.

The Catholic Church does not think of Christ's coming as being immanent or soon or that people have to "get ready" for Christ to appear. There is no sense of urgency. If you sin, you simply go to the priest for confession and absolution, etc. It is not a matter of the necessity of overcoming sin. The Church sees that as something more necessary for the religious-- the priests and bishops, etc.-- to do.

I do not want to give the impression that the Catholic Church says nothing about overcoming sin. It does. Rather, it does not put it in the context of developing character fit for heaven or because we want to show forth God's character and power in order to glorify God in the great controversy between Christ and Satan.

Besides, no one needs to be completely pure since there is purgatory which will purify us so we can enter heaven. In other words, there is kind of a second chance.

Quote:
Catholics also revere the virgin Mary, whom they do not worship as God but who is there to point the way to God/Jesus and help mediate in the believer's relationship with God.

In the Adventist faith, we have Ellen White, who has been given both of these roles.


Adventists do not believe that Ellen White can do what Catholics believe Mary and the saints are able to do. We believe that Ellen White is dead and unconscious and lying in the cold grave. Catholics believe Mary is alive and well in heaven and able to mediate for them with her Son. They pray to saints and to Mary-- and light candles and give offerings in her name and in the name of other dead people-- in order to persuade God to do loving things for them and for dead relatives. The priests actually encourage them in doing these useless things. I have a sister-in-law who has crawled on her knees for miles to a statue of the Virgin of Guadalupe, until her legs were bleeding, all in order to persuade God to give her son a successful operation. This was what she was taught would please God.

I used to take my wife to the Church where she prayed and lit candles for her dead father, mother and sister. She was really worried about them. Now she is not. She has told me over and over again how much better she feels knowing that her mother is resting in the grave and is not aware of all the problems going on down here on this earth.



_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats


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