I just read most of last night's interview with Mitch Tyner. I'm not really sure how the interviews work. It looks like people just ask questions during a certain period of time, and he answers them. There is not actually any discussion of the issues, just Q/A. Is that right? So I supposed this is the place to have a discussion about anything that was brought up.

I was interested in his response to the Waco/Davidian situation, in which he felt that we (official church) possibly did not respond strongly enough and that the ATF brushed off those SDAs who tried to offer assistance.

It occurred to me that in the recent situation with the Texas FLDS group, officials actually did approach the Morman church to intervene and/or act as go-betweens, but the Morman church refused, not wanting to have any confusion between that group and their church.

Since both cases happened in Texas, I found it interesting that in the Waco case, church help was rebuffed by the government, and in the FLDS case, church help was sought by the government.

We will probably find out in the judgment that the order to destroy the Branch Davidians at Waco came from the Vatican. I don't think anything they or anyone else could have done would have ever changed it. Even if they all came out with their hands up, they still would have been shot and the tapes destroyed their bodies would have been piled back in and the compound would have been burned up and those involved would have gotten drunk and celebrated their proud victory and patriotic spirit of ridding the land of a "dangerous cult", (like in Beowulf).

It was a trial run to test how much control the Papacy now had over the agencies in the United States, which is a country that has resisted her whoredoms for many decades, but is finally starting to fall.

Remember the Waldensees, how they where demonized in the public eye by the media of that day? It was said that they flew around on broom sticks and the women would act as succubi stealing the life from men in their sleep through some spiritual fornication. I'm sure that got the wives to hate them. The children where said to have four rows of black teeth. And all kinds of fanciful stories where made up about them and the same for all the enemies of the Papacy.

When they where slaughtered, the people breathed easier and praised God for ridding them of the threat the Waldensees posed. What if they had gotten out of hand and transformed all their children into monsters?

Remember this fiasco in the Bible?

1 Kings 21:9 And she wrote in the letters, saying, Proclaim a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people:
21:10 And set two men, sons of Belial, before him, to bear witness against him, saying, Thou didst blaspheme God and the king. And [then] carry him out, and stone him, that he may die.
21:11 And the men of his city, [even] the elders and the nobles who were the inhabitants in his city, did as Jezebel had sent unto them, [and] as it [was] written in the letters which she had sent unto them.
21:12 They proclaimed a fast, and set Naboth on high among the people.
21:13 And there came in two men, children of Belial, and sat before him: and the men of Belial witnessed against him, [even] against Naboth, in the presence of the people, saying, Naboth did blaspheme God and the king. Then they carried him forth out of the city, and stoned him with stones, that he died.

Even elders and nobles where willing to lie to condemn an innocent man to death at the queens command. There are other situations like that.

No one's going to fall for those things today, but you can get the public to hate a group of people and want them dead and be glad when they are killed, if you say:
-- the leader was committing adultery with everyone's wife and the men where so deluded they just took it, and
-- he was molesting 10 year old girls and
-- spanking a 8 month old child for 45 minutes in front of her dad and
-- leaving his own child in the shed with the dogs he was terrified of and
-- they where planning to shoot up Waco to fulfill their prophecy and
-- turning their children into little suicidal soldiers and
-- they took the Bible too seriously and we all know that makes you crazy, that why normal folks like us don't take it seriously.

That's alot more believable. But really between singing and composing music, and jogging, and continuous bible studies and seminars, and training outreach workers, and shooting guns, and gun dealing, and everything else, how does the man find time and energy to lie with his own wife, let alone with everyone else's? Most workaholics will confess a diminished sex drive.

In an interview with an Australian network in 1991 Mr. Koresh got a good chuckle out of allegations that he had several wives and was committing adultery. You can see this interview in the movie, "Waco: The Big Lie", found here:

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=5369116450757675658&ei=gfuwSNKeC5SIrgPzuay5DA&q=Waco%2C+The+Big+Lie

But ya, I would like to hear something from the poor souls who have to spend 40 years in prison. Where can we find an interview with those guys? One of them spent only 15 years and is now out, but he is not allowed to talk to anyone at all or that will break the terms of his release and he will spend the rest of his life in prison.

How many are petitioning for the rights of these people who are not monsters, but really just normal people who just wanted to get together with others to study the Bible?

But instead we piss on their graves by saying they are a perfect example of a "dangerous cult". We say it was a judgment of God because they where so wicked. I guess that's the easiest way to go...

I think if God is going to just a group, He will let us know it was Him and make sure there's a big difference between that situation and that of the Waldensees. But here it's like the Waldensees. The witnesses who didn't serve time have proven to be false.
-- One girl who claims to have slept with Koresh wears as much make-up as a clown. In the videos you'll see the Davidian women NEVER wore make-up.
-- The man who inherited the land lost by the Davidians doesn't keep the Sabbath or know anything about prophecy.
-- The drummer believes in UFOs and Aliens which the Davidians did not believe in. He also Linda Thomson, (created Waco: The Big Lie), was a liar.
-- I'm sure Kiri Jewel and her whole extended family where compensated very nicely for her reading that paper that stated she was molested. No one could say anything against the FBI after that. Now they where heroes for having wiped out a whole gang of child molesters.

Why would God make everything look so suspicious?
-- ATF witnesses said the Davidians fired through the door. Where's the door that was supposed to have bullet holes going and in and out? It's gone!

-- Where's are the 4 video tapes that filmed the beginning of the shootout? They are all gone!

-- How is it that the 4 ATF agents that where killed turn out to be all 4 of them the President's former body guards? Did he send an order that they should be killed in battle like Uriah, (2 Sam. 11:15)? Perhaps they knew too much! Did the Davidians kill anyone? Probably not. They weren't killers. They just dealt guns for money and shot them to look and feel tough, and it probably the Jesuits who put them up to that by deceit and flattery. Probably the only ones returning fire where the spies in their midst. The ones who didn't serve time.

-- Where are all the tapes of David Koresh speaking and singing? Why are they not put on mp3 and released to the public? Nothing good was released for it would "create sympathy" for the Davidians. In other words it would show everyone that they where really just human and just very interested in getting revelations from God through the Word, and they where not the monsters the media made them out to be, which if that's true, then the real monsters where the ones who murdered the Davidians. That's "dangerous sympathy" according to the powers that be.

God is not so wicked that He will use the most vile and wicked men on the earth to judge His own people. God will kindle an unquenchable fire like at Battlecreek or send a tornado.

Are you sure it's a good idea to associate David Koresh with the Waldenses and with the Adventist message? I wouldn't want people to think that we or our message has anything to do with what David Koresh did. Koresh was not following what either the Bible or the Spirit of prophecy say.

At the same time I'm not at all defending the actions taken by Janet Reno and the Justice Department in that case. If they had wanted to arrest him, they could have done it when he went out jogging or when he went to the store. On the other hand, Koresh shouldn't have been keeping all those weapons, etc., or fired on the ATF agents.

Carol, you are correct, unless the person is ok with keeping it open, we close it.

Good to bring it here.

Where did you get this information that the Vatican is somehow involved? Unless you have hard evidence, tread lightly my friend. Beware of false accusations.

Gerry

Sounds like something Jan Marcason would say.

Twilight Zone........

It's the Jesuits again.

I agree that God is not revealing any personal wickedness in using wicked men for punishing. But would like you to explain the Assyrian's (wicked) triumph over the Israelites (disobedient servants of God) when the Israelites needed correction. And an even greater tragedy of God's chosen, the 430 years they remained in slavery to the Egyptians, whom the latter declared Pharoah to be a god.

"You shall have no other gods before Me" Exodus 20:3 NASB

"Then He said to the disciples, “It is impossible that no offenses should come, but woe to him through whom they do come!" Luke 17:1 NKJV

It is not wickedness on the part of God, Who allows the contrived wicked choices of man, to work for the correction of those who will perish without that correction, brought about by their very own destructive conduct.
Regards!

I watched a video presentation of David Koresh, claiming his position as the sinful Messiah. Alluding to be the Messiah, albeit sinful, didn't seem to bring any more harsh fruits to David Koresh and his followers, than any other person who has claimed the prerogatives of Almighty God, including Lucifer himself.

"They slighted and undervalued Christ, because they admired and overvalued themselves. How can those believe, who make the praise and applause of men their idol! When Christ and his followers are men wondered at, how can those believe, the utmost of whose ambition is to make a fair show in the flesh." Jn 5:44 commentary source unknown LHC

""So if they say to you, 'Behold, He is in the wilderness,' do not go out, or, 'Behold, He is in the inner rooms,' do not believe them. " Matt 24:26 NASB
Regards!