I've heard this saying alot: "We don't keep the law to be saved, but because we are saved".

This may be some kind of adaptation of something Ellen White said, but it may not be exactly what she was saying. We find quotes like this which say the opposite:



If your salvation is dependent on you keeping the law, as this quote and many more suggest, then you are keeping the law to be saved.

So I would rather say that the difference between self-righteousness and righteousness by faith, has nothing to do with your motivation for obeying God, but rather whether you give yourself credit for your obedience, or whether you give the the glory to God.

We can come up with all kinds of reasons to obey God:

Obey God 'cause you don't want to die.
Obey God 'cause you want eternal life.
Obey God 'cause you love Him.
Obey God 'cause you trust Him.
Obey God 'cause you hate the works of evil men.
Obey God 'cause you love people and want to win souls.

All these are good reason. But there really is no good reason not to obey God. Whatever it takes to motivate yourself, just as long as you get the job done.

The danger is where we look at our own obedience and fall to pride.

Luke 18:9 And he spake this parable unto certain which trusted in themselves that they were righteous, and despised others:
...
18:11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself, God, I thank thee, that I am not as other men [are], extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this publican.
18:12 I fast twice in the week, I give tithes of all that I possess.

That's just a caricature of self-righteousness. So how to overcome this? Jesus tells us to not give ourselves credit for what we do.

Luke 17:10 So likewise ye, when ye shall have done all those things which are commanded you, say, We are unprofitable servants: we have done that which was our duty to do.

Matt. 6:3 But when thou doest alms, let not thy left hand know what thy right hand doeth:

Phil. 3:8 Yea doubtless, and I count all things [but] loss for the excellency of the knowledge of Christ Jesus my Lord: for whom I have suffered the loss of all things, and do count them [but] dung, that I may win Christ,

Your good works are not dung. The reason the Lord saved you is for you to produce good works:

Eph. 2:10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Matt. 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man [that is] an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.

And your works cause you to shine, which inspire others to be saved:

Matt. 5:16 Let your light so shine before men, that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father which is in heaven.

So why count them dung? So you don't boast.

Eph. 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: [it is] the gift of God:
2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.

So whatever your reason, trust God and do what He says, and then don't take the credit for yourself, but give the glory to God for His powerful grace that gave you the victory and brought you into conformity to His will.

The ONLY person who has done this is Jesus. He is the one that covers the sins of those of us who don't have perfect obedience.

So, the statement is true. This IS the condition of eternal life. And Jesus fulfilled it for me so I don't have to.

Quote:
"So I would rather say that the difference between self-righteousness and righteousness by faith, has nothing to do with your motivation for obeying God, but rather whether you give yourself credit for your obedience, or whether you give the the glory to God."

Who gets the credit is for sure a high point. Motivation is too however. Do I keep the law to be saved or because I love God so much for what Jesus did for us. So to me motivation is also very important.

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Quote
"And Jesus fulfilled it for me so I don't have to".

This is a interesting way to put it. Jesus fulfilled the law for me so "I don't have to". Sure sounds like a cop out to me from the human view point. I would have thought you would have said "because I can't keep the law", but you was truthful in saying "so I don't have to". There in showing the real pull for believing this way, so they don't have to keep the law, and feel good about it. Can't you see how evil a thought that is? How deceived into thinking that we are left to live as we please even thou Jesus said "If ye love me, keep my commandments." Then He even sends His Holy Spirit so we can keep His Law. Yet you still feel "you don't have to???" Not directly to be saved, but to show that we truely love God for what He has done for us threw His Son. If we don't keep His Law here, our place of prepreation, then we will never want to keep it in heaven either. If we feel that Christ is just going to say... change my child, when He comes...and that will make us obedient... it won't happen that way. We will always have the power to choose and that won't change then.

I have to be honest. I keep God's law because I want to be saved. Does that make me a legalist then? If you make a statement like that with no Biblical support, I won't as much respect for you.

I want to be saved. So I keep God's law. So did this poor guy we keep talking about:

Matt. 19:16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

What does he want? He wanted eternal life. Is that so bad? Doesn't God also want you to be saved?

Luke 12:32 Fear not, little flock; for it is your Father's good pleasure to give you the kingdom.

2 Peter 3:9 The Lord is ... not willing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.

If you want to be saved, and God also wants you to be saved, then by wanting to be saved, then isn't your will the same as God's will, if you both want the same thing?

And what does Jesus say?

Matt. 19:17 ..if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

If you want eternal life, keep the commandments. I want eternal life, so I keep the commandments. I don't see the point in making it all complicated.

I am reminded of a singer/song writer of 20 years ago.... Brad McIntyre....

He said that adventist "always have something to say"...especially when it comes to the Law...We are the experts on deciphering to the Nth degree of law....

When are you guys going to quit?

You are not going to best the other one in an arguement...Shoot, you guys are talking past each other...You guys dont know when to quit....and don't know what you are talking about...bible vs life experiences

So, when are you going to quit?

Hi Neils,

Relax...Calm down !!!

You are too much complaining and condemning of everything you don't really like. Let them all keep on discussing and speak up. Why is this bothering you?

...and asking "when are you guys going to quit?" Which are suppossedly need to quit in this discussion....all of us or you?

We are the Seventh Day-Adventists not because we are better than any others, but because God has given us a full-complete package of the special message to proclaim just before His second coming.

If you quote, "adventist always have something to say"....especially when it comes to the law.....wow...your attitude here seems like you don't really in favor of God's Law in the name of "Grace", "Love" or "Life experiences"

We need to become the supporters of God's Law because we appreciate His Grace and Love. (and not to misuse it)

Or...next time if a murderer kills your loved ones, burn your properties and steal your everything....Please, just tell to the murderer, "Don't worry, you are not under the Law [legalist], you are under the Grace. And since your salvation is guaranteed, then, I am so happy because you already saved and absolutely you have no power of choice. You have nowhere else to go. Once saved always saved"

..."Next time please also kill my wife, kids, moms and dads, and live as you are, do whatever you want...because you still be saved, anyway. Jesus loves you forever. See you in heaven. Surely I will complaint to Jesus if your name is not there in the book of life!!!"

How can we tell the world to repent if we don't tell them what sins they're doing?

Repent of what?

Is that legalist?

If you study the God's love and His mercy....at the same time you simply need to tell yourself about God's Law: Is satan love or hate God's law?


What's the best way for satan to attack His perfect Law?

Relax??? Have you read all 67 pages of this thread?? I have....

The honest trueth of the matter is ....they are talking past each other...They don't know what nor when to apply thier terms. They are each talking a foriegn language to each other, and yet, it is english... And worst of all....they don't understand the other person's position....



If we have a "full-complete package of the special message", then why are these guys not coming to agreement as to what it is....The answer is they don't know.. They don't know how to apply it.

I agree that we need to understand God's Grace and mercy and Agape Love. I agree that we need to be supporters of God's Law. But if they can not come to aggree ment as to what it is, how it is applied, what good are they?

And as for my attitude, the bible says that endless words are wearying....I am weary of this endless arguement. Some of us are waiting for this thing to die....some, like myself, want it to die...and the difference is - I am actively seeking to kill this endless arguement...




Is that what you are hearing what is being said? If so, go back and reread the whole thread, begining on page one....Cuz you ain't hearing the other persons arguemts either...

Yes. It's OK to express ones feelings and thoughts about this topic. I know it may seem to some that the exchanges are long and maybe even boring and redundant, but that is often the nature of free exchanges. The main thing is to stay on topic and not get personal in the attacks. If people don't like the topic or feel that it's a waste of time, they are always free to go to those they feel are more worth their while. It's no reason to urge an end to the discussion as long as there are others who feel they have something important to say.

I don't think it's a matter of "besting the other in an argument," although I know that can be the viewpoint of many. The thing we want to do is read what people are saying and try to learn from it, even from those we completely disagree with. Usually, if we try to, we can see some legitimate points brought up by each side of a discussion or argument.

It's true that in this discussion, some are talking past each other rather, but when we see that happening, it would be beneficial to the conversation if we would discuss this aspect in some detail rather than telling everyone to stop talking.

We have to assume that everyone is sincere and wanting to understand the truth. I believe this describes everyone on the Forum.