And, on another subject, the Lord said He killed Saul....He said He created evil. The Lord said it, don't question it, right? That's the difference between tradition and those who desire to be illuminated with advancing light!



No, it makes you out to be the liar, not God. God is simply presenting Job's view of Himself. I'm sorry you don't get this, but if you read "all" of the book of Job you might gain some insights. Instead, as Ellen would say, "Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion."

That's ironic that you "don't see"!

What was that she said? "Not to see the marked contrast between Christ and ourselves is not to know ourselves. He who does not abhor himself can not understand the meaning of redemption." [R&H 9-25-1900]

As to "connect-a-dot", well, Job didn't see either. In the end, however, he viewed himself as "vile"! He "abhorred" his self-righteous view of himself. So he kept his faith in God. Job learned better....

Rob

So far, Job is agreement with the narrator:

"I hold fast my righteousness and will not let it go." [Job 27:6]

“Let God weigh me in just scales and he will know that I am blameless." [Job 31:5,6]

But then we begin to find some problems with Job's claims:

But the anger of Elihu the son of Barachel the Buzite, of the family of Ram burned; against Job his anger burned, because he justified himself before God. [Job 32:2]


Then God confronts Job for his claims:

Then the Lord answered Job out of the whirlwind and said, “Who is this that darkens counsel by words without knowledge?" [Job 38:1,2]

How did Job reply?

“You asked, ‘Who is this that obscures my counsel without knowledge?’ Surely I spoke of things I did not understand, things too wonderful for me to know.” [Job 42:3 NIV]

After justifying himself before God what does Job end up saying? I thought you would never ask! Here:

”Wherefore I [Job] abhor myself, and repent in dust and ashes.“ [Job 42:6 KJV]

Repent of what? Well, what was Job’s claim? Right…I am a righteous dude – I’ve done this and that, but when Job met God he abhorred his boastful words and repented of his true condition:

“Behold, I [Job] am vile; what shall I answer thee? I will lay mine hand upon my mouth.” [Job 40:4 KJV]

So again, since Job wasn't blameless, the the narrator was simply giving you Job's view of himself. It makes very interesting reading. For those who can "see", well,

Have you done a word study? Later I'll be back to give information from Lexicons and show how it is used. It doesn't mean what you think. I'll also talk about the Hebrew word that is translated "blameless."

Until then, Rob, check it out yourself. Then let's talk.

I don't need Lexicons....Instead I'll let Job define what he means by "blameless":


“My foot has held fast to His steps; I have kept His way and not turned aside. I have not departed from the commandment of His lips; I have treasured the words of His mouth more than my necessary food’” (Job 23:11,12 NKJV)


Look, am not questioning Job's faith. The lesson here is that Job kept his faith in God. He didn't understand why all these bad things were happening. He was so blind to his condition. He was honest, but he was deceived. He was deceived by his own self-righteousness.

Was Job telling the truth here? Was he right about that? Is he deceiving anyone?

No, but his so-called "friends" think he is. They do not believe him. I believe him. Why? Because both the narrator and God tell us that Job is telling the truth.

Job is not claiming he is completely without sin. He is merely maintaining his innocence in the face of unfair slander by his "friends" who say the punishment proves he is not telling the full truth.

OK, why is it so important to both you and Jack Sequeira to show that Job's problem is self-righteousness? Why is that an important point?

Where is it obvious in the book?

I think the main mistake is that when Job talks about his righteousness and his innocence and his following God's commandments, Jack S. thinks Job is claiming that he is without sin, and he does not consider the fact that Job is merely saying that he is not guilty of the secret sins they accuse him of. He has done nothing for God to punish him.

Does Job learn anything from his suffering? Yes, he does. But the fact that he learns something is not the reason for his suffering. We alone know the real reason for his suffering. Job never finds this out. He suffers because God allows Satan to reveal Satan's evil character and in order to show the universe that God has a friend named Job who will trust Him to the death despite everything Satan can do to him and his family.

That is faith and the service of love.

What does Job learn? He learns that he is relatively ignorant when it comes to knowing the ways of God. He also learns that he is unworthy and of small account. He learns that God is incredibly righteous, wise, powerful, loving and full of grace toward all, even toward his friends who have spoken of God and of Job what is not true.

We hear nothing from God concerning the youthful Elihu because he was silent until the end, and he never accused God of punishing Job because of secret sins. Therefore, Elihu isn't reprimanded and Job is not told to sacrifice and offer a prayer for him. This is no grounds for belief that Elihu is right in what he tells Job, as if Elihu is correct in his characterization of Job and God and the narrator have been wrong. As I've shown before, Elihu puts words in Job's mouth which Job neither uttered nor meant.

Yes, you are right that he repented. And you are right that Job called himself "vile."

But to see this as meaning he was not "blameless" shows a misunderstanding of the word "blameless."

Earlier you said that "blameless" means "without sin," but this is an error.

"Blameless" [Hebrew, tame, Strong's #8535] simply means "whole," "complete," "upright,""pious," "innocent," "sincere," "having integrity," "sound," "wholesome," "plain," "harmless," "quiet," etc. (See how it is used in Ps. 37:37.)

Today we would simply say Job was a good man, a man with integrity, a man you can trust. In fact that is how some translations read. He was whole or complete in his devotion to God.

(There is the same meaning in the NT at Luke 1: 6, with regard to the parents of John the Baptist. )

Therefore, it is not saying Job was without sin. That is definitely NOT what it is saying about Job.

Now what does "vile" mean, as Job used in Job 40; 4?

Here Job calls himself "vile" [Hebrew, Qalal, Strong#7043]. It means "to be small," "to be light," "to be lessened," "to be despised," "to be insignificant," and "to be of small worth." (The Complete Word Study Old Testament, Lexical Aids, p. 1261.)

Here is how the NRSV, New American Standard, and the NIV translate it at Job 40: 4--- "I am of small acount...."; and "I am insignificant," and "I am unworthy."

Conclusion: Job 40:4 does not in any way contradict Job 1: 1, 8; 2:3. Nor does it show that Job admits that he is a great sinner against God and that Satan is right about Him and God all wrong. God has been right all along in putting His trust in Job.

Can God trust us like He did Job? Are we remaining faithful?

But what if we come to believe that no one is faithful or obeys or does right and that it is utterly futile even with the Spirit's power to try to keep God's commandments?

Or that it doesn't matter and it is legalism if we try or want to?

I will sum up the issue with Job. It's an open / shut case.

1. God said Job is a perfect man, and the greatest man of God in all the earth.

2. Satan said he could get Job to sin if God would allow Satan to hurt Job.

3. Satan hurt Job, but Job never sinned. Great victory for God and Job, the servant of God. Great hope for everyone who reads the book of Job.

Job 1:21 And said, Naked came I out of my mother's womb, and naked shall I return thither: the LORD gave, and the LORD hath taken away; blessed be the name of the LORD.
1:22 In all this Job sinned not, nor charged God foolishly.

Job 2:10 ..shall we receive good at the hand of God, and shall we not receive evil? In all this did not Job sin with his lips.

4. Great loss for Satan, who was proven wrong. Now he's lookin' like a huge chump.

5. Now Satan's servants, zealous for the glory of their master, are saying that Satan actually got Job to sin.

But Christ has made a way..... We are sinful, but Christ..... It's obvious she's saying that without Christ, of our own works, we can't perfectly obey God's law, but with Christ, we can.

Ellen White does not contradict herself. We have already quoted too many lines where she said we have to have perfect obedience, like this one that just came up:



If you don't want to obey God's law, you can't have eternal life. So Christ grants the power to do it, if you will just give Him the glory for it. There's no teaching that's more simple than that.

If the Devil can get people mixed up on such a simple thing, then he is very, very clever. I couldn't do it.