The Adventist Medical Evangelism Network is a grassroots movement of Seventh-day Adventist physicians and dentists with a unique focus…medical evangelism. Do you want to share the gospel with your patients? Do you want to use your medical training to hasten the second coming of Christ? Do you wish you had training, support and resources to make these desires a reality?

Plan now to attend the Adventist Medical Evangelism Network’s 2008 conference. Together we will learn how to follow Christ’s footsteps and be healers of body and soul.

Doral Desert Princess Resort
67967 Vista Chino
Cathedral City, California 92234

Thursday October 30–Sunday November 2, 2008

“Linked for Service”
Thursday—October 30, 2008
Exhibit Set Up: 12:00 – 3:30 pm
Registration/Check-In: 2:00 – 4:00 pm
Business Meeting: 4:00 – 5:30 pm
Dinner: 6:00 – 6:45 pm
Evening Meeting: 7:15 – 8:45 pm
Naren James , MD

Friday—October 31, 2008
Morning Devotional 7:30 – 8:15 am
Samuel Pipim
Prayer Groups: 8:15 – 8:30 am
Breakfast: 8:15 – 9:30 am
Plenary Session: 10:00 – 11:15 am
Neil Nedley
Breakout Sessions: 11:30 am – 1:00 pm
Lunch: 1:00 – 2:00 pm
Breakout Sessions: 3:30 – 5:00 pm
Dinner: 6:00 – 6:45 pm
Evening Meeting: 7:15 – 8:45 pm
Roger Miller, MD

Saturday—November 1, 2008
Morning Devotional 7:30 – 8:15 am
Samuel Pipim
Prayer Groups: 8:15 – 8:30 am
Breakfast: 8:15 – 9:30 am

Sabbath School : 9:45 – 11:15 am

Medical/Pastoral Teams:

Worship Service: 11:30 am – 12:45 pm
Doug Batchelor

Lunch: 1:00 – 2:00 pm
Afternoon Meeting: 3:30 – 5:00 pm
Overseas Mission Reports & Musical Program
Dinner: 6:00 – 6:45 pm
Evening Meeting: 7:15 – 8:45 pm
Mission Report Session

Sunday—November 2, 2008Morning Devotional 7:30 – 8:15 am
Samuel Pipim
Prayer Groups: 8:15 – 8:30 am
Breakfast: 8:15 – 9:30 am
Plenary Session: 9:30 – 10:30 am
James Kyle, MD
Exhibit Tear down: 12:00 pm

http://www.amensda.org

To me ... this is being dishonest with the vulnerable.

People come to a doctor to receive medical help. To try and force the Bible and Religion in to someone who is needing your medical assistance ... seems deceptive and dishonest to me personally.

Some will say they only give it if the patient agrees. But to be in the position of power and even suggest something like this ... is not professional.

Give your care and help to others without strings attached.

If they contact you later about religious things ... fine. But to push this on the vulnerable is just plain wrong.

Hi dear Redwood,

You said, "People come to a doctor to receive medical help. To try and force the Bible and Religion in to someone who is needing your medical assistance ... seems deceptive and dishonest"

But people came to Jesus to receive medical help also. To try and force the Bible and His will in to someone who is needing HIS medical assistance ... seems deceptive and dishonest, right Redwood?



I just don't get what you said by "force" here.

No. I would have to disagree with you. They knew Him to be the Lord. The Saviour. They were healed because of their faith in Him. Jesus did not have a medical degree nor did He have a license to practice medicine. Those who do ... ought to stick to medicine unless they are making it aware ... as Jesus did ... that they are preaching the Gospel.

IMHO, *forcing* the Bible and religion on someone who is in need of medical assistance is tantamount to holding them hostage. I wouldn't like it, and I wouldn't do it to someone else. One can demonstrate the character of Jesus without shoving a Bible lesson in a patient's face.

When an extremist like Samuel Pipim is participating .... I would have to be skeptical. And yes Rudywoofs ... I like how you have described it ... Being held hostage. I think that is exactly the case of those who seek 'medical care'. It's not like they can leave when one tries shoving religion down your throat.

Dr. Hans LaRondelle said Sam Pipim was his brightest and most gracious student. I have met Sam on two occasions and found him to be as LaRondelle said he was. Reformers are not always polular, and that is fine.


og

When you are sick in the hospital ... would you like to have the JW's insisting on preaching to you through the efforts of your surgeon?

I would think not. I think it best to separate medical care and religion for the patient. I think we should serve the patient without motives of converting them.
Service is great in and of it's self.

I don't believe that abstract question applies to me,

regards,

oG

Medical Evangelism is not a new technique introduced and mastered by Adventists Church. This has been one of the best methods came directly from Jesus Himself about 2000 years ago. Physical needs must come first to be healed before spiritual things.

And Jesus said, "go ye and tell the world...."

But how?

I know Redwood that you won't answer my question of your statement to "force"....

To FORCE? Who against who?


Yet I just assuming that you became an Adventist only because you are 2nd or the 3rd generation of a SDA family. Just maybe. I don't know.

If not, who convinced you then? Do you feel that you're being trapped at that time and forced to become an Adventist?

Apostle Paul was not a full time Pastor, but a businessman and with his small business he won many souls to Christ. So what? Please complaint about him now to Jesus and campaign to everyone not to follow Paul's way to trap people come into Jesus through his business.

We really love you Redwood, but, please don't take it personal if somebody says that you are such an extremist that too much talking about theology and religion all the time and too much, of course...But you don't really like and has no attitude to create a chance to give a Bible Study to anyone.

Talking about Theology and Religion and debating all the time, but don't really like to give a Bible Study.

Well...at least, please don't complaint if most of the Apostles sharing Jesus at their works and networks.
Please don't get upset if many of Adventists Physicians, Nurses or Dentists share about Jesus.
And please don't get mad if Adventist Schools/Universities around the world in the middle of their school activities also tell to all students to be ready for the second coming of Jesus!


Tell the world! But never by forcing them as in your accusation, however.

And can you imagine. Jesus even mentioned morality when all they did was come to Him for healing of the body.

"Afterward Jesus findeth him in the temple, and said unto him, Behold, thou art made whole: sin no more, lest a worse thing come unto thee." John 5:14 KJV

Seems like I hear a principle of the prince of darkness.

"And, behold, there was a man which had his hand withered. And they asked him, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath days? that they might accuse him." Matthew 12:10 KJV

"But that ye may know that the Son of man hath power upon earth to forgive sins, (he said unto the sick of the palsy,) I say unto thee, Arise, and take up thy couch, and go into thine house."
Luke 5:24 KJV

We all have the right to go elsewhere than to the person/s who are willing to risk disfavor for the opportunity to give the message of health for eternity.

"....If thou wilt diligently hearken to the voice of the LORD thy God, and wilt do that which is right in his sight, and wilt give ear to his commandments, and keep all his statutes, I will put none of these diseases upon thee, which I have brought upon the Egyptians: for I am the LORD that healeth thee." Exodus 15:26 KJV
Regards!

Doesn't it say in the Spirit of prophecy that medical evangelism is the entering wedge? The AMEN movement, although very young in its ministry, has my full support and I would encourage anyone in the medical field to join.

I wouldn't call Samuel Korangteng Pipim an extremist. I'd say he is on fire for the Lord. And yes, he is also a very humble and gracious man. A man of God.

Completely agree, Peace. I think you have two very valid points here.

Personally, I'd go out on a limb here and say plainly that I am excited by the Adventist Medical Evangelism Network. I think it's great. I don't think there's any need to be concerned that people are being forced into anything.

I know of non-Adventists who were patients at Loma Linda University Medical Center and who thought it was wonderful that there are still doctors and nurses today who will take the time and interest to pray with them.

If there comes a day when we as a church forget the purpose of our hospitals-- as the entering wedge of the the gospel-- I'm of the opinion that we might as well close up shop. Our hospitals exist only for the purpose of pointing people to Jesus Christ and the spreading of the gospel. There are thousands of other hospitals that tend to people's bodies. Ours are designed to tend to a person's body, but also to people's spiritual needs.

Amen to AMEN !!

May I also put a plug here for GYC of which Pipim is very much involved with. I wonder if anyone in the Adventist Forum will be attending this December?

ooh By the way, when first time established, the name of the SDA hospital in Loma Linda I think it's not "Loma Linda University Medical Center"....but I forget what's exactly the name of the facility.

What was the name of it?

The Loma Linda Sanitarium.

Later: Loma Linda Sanitarium and Hospital.

College of Medical Evangelists was the name of the university. I remember that sign on the highway just before getting to Loma Linda. Personally wish they had kept the name.

That was the name of the hospital, yes.

The original buildings were there until the late 60s.

Sure doctors and clinics should share their faith. You see "The Bible Story" books in clinics and doctors offices. If doctors felt burdened to hand out tracts or to provide spiritual reading material, they should be allowed to do that. Maybe it makes them feel better about themselves.

There are actually lots of people that are searching for truth. If they find it in your clinic, they will remember that and be life-time customers. Parents will also read "The Bible Story" books to their children while they are waiting.

Sure, I can see it getting out of hand and becoming unprofessional, or even fanatical. Obviously if you love the Lord, you don't want anyone to misrepresent. But even if they are a little clumsy, they should get credit for trying.

These things just need alot of finesse and wisdom. No shoving needed. Just provide a pamphlet that they can pick up and read. At the bottom put contact info and then put "or ask you physician if you are interested in these programs". Make sure they are informed up front that you will be using some advice from the Bible in the anger management, or stop smoking program, or whatever.

Actually, I don't know much about all this, so I don't have much to say. I try to avoid the hospital at all costs. It's just extremely expensive these days. One time I had a seizure and the people there called the ambulance and I got stuck with a $5000 hospital bill that I couldn't pay, so now no bank in Oklahoma will let me have a checking or savings account. You don't call an ambulance if someone has a seizure. Don't people know that?

Honestly, I hate the medical industry. Why do they have to charge so much? Why do our presidents and senators take million dollar bribes from health care giants to pass laws on their behalf? Why don't we have universal health care like these other countries, like Canada, England, France, and all the rest? Maybe because it would put the health insurance giants out of business? Those guys can find an honest career that actually provides a good or service for people. They are just paper shufflers.

Actually, you shouldn't ever put any type of religious info in a doctors office, nor in any hospital. You see, your average non-profit hospital receives more than 50% of it's funding directly from the federal government. Thus, to maintain seperation of church and state, no federally funded hospital, nor MD's office, should ever allow any type of religous info to be displayed. In fact, many hospitals now prevent religous groups to leave phamplets in waiting rooms.

Would it be ok for an athiest MD, nurse, radiology tech, housekeeper, or cafeteria staff to try to convince you of their way of thinking while you are recovering from a major surgery, and on heavy pain killers? I should think you would be highly offended and possibly call in the hospital administration. But, you want to do the same thing, but just for the SDA church, which seems to make it right in your mind. How is that?

Why don't we let doctors be doctors, it's what they went to school for, and it's what they are licensed to do. They are not pastors. Hospitals provide pastoral care for those in need. They are available 24/7, just a phone call away. And these hosptial pastors have very specific training in how to deal with sick and greiving patients. Medical doctors do NOT recieve religous training when in medical school!


Please, let doctors be doctors, and take care of physically sick people. And let pastors be pastors, and take care of spiritually sick people.

When you overstep your boundries, you just look pushy and agressive, and when did that ever bring people to the lord?

If you still believe in the Bible, more than 85% of His messengers, prophets and apostles were not theologians.

They were farmers, physicians, lawyers, builders/contractors, tent makers (real-estate agents?), armies, generals, state employees, teachers, etc....
But from theology/religion education background? How many was the percentage compared to the non theologians...of the prophets God called?

But why God did that?

Well, in this case, would you mind to complaint, "Ooh please God. I don't like your way here. I hate this. Let doctors be doctors, and take care of physically sick people. And let pastors be pastors, and take care of spiritually sick people. Do your own job!!! Don't talk too much about Jesus and religion...."

"....That's why God, I also really don't like your prophets and servants Daniel, Shadrach, Meshach and Abednego because they were not Pastors but talking about religion and witnessing about their Redeemer when they were in their office. This is not a good thing, God. And...hey God, do you understand that?"

Delta,

I do see your point, and appreciate your point of view. However, when it comes to the health of Gods people, I must impress upon you the importance of each and every health care worker doing the very best job they can. And that means doing what you are specifically trainded to do. When any one person on the health care team chooses to play too many parts, their ability to specialize decreases dramatically. This in turn leads to more harm than good, for the lives of God's children.

I'm not saying that a doctor shouldn't witness for the lord, outside of the work place. But when that MD is on the job, actually taking the lives of his/her patients in hand, I most certainly hope the foremost thought in mind is the physical well being of that patient (ie,you, your loved ones, or anybody else).

So, do I really want doctors to do what they are very specifically trained to do? ABSOLUTELY! And do I want pastors to do exactly what they are trained to do? ABSOLUTELY! When I need to be seen for a head cold, I'll gladly go to my doctor. And when I have a head full of doubt, sorrow, remorse, joy, fullfillment, I'll gladly see my pastor.

So yeah, I think we all have a job to do. And most often, the people who are best trained to do a job, should be the ones doing it. There's always room for God to intervene and assist us in the process of bringing others to the light of God. But when we use the skills God has given us, I think we do more than just take care of lives, we witness with our actions. And I think that says more than handing out some pamphlets in the office when someone really just came there because they were feeling sick.

I assure you I don't believe that I'm telling God what He can and can't do, or what He should or shouldn't do. I am, however, stating that I think PEOPLE should do what they are best trained and suited to do.

I would not prefer to see my pastor when having spiritual problems, and then have him offer to remove a mole, or to prescribe some treatment for my cough. I'd much rather see each of them seperatly, for they are very different professions, with profoundly differnt impacts on the lives of God's children. How about you?

I agree with you. OTOH, I have been up in the surgical suites where the surgeon has prayed before beginning surgery on his patient, and this was in a non-Adventist, secular hospital. No one objected, and the Adventist surgeon was one of the most highly sought-after physicians in the area.

But prayer may lie out of the realm of what you were referring to, i.e., handing out church doctrine-related brochures, giving unrelated-to-health information to patients in his/her office, etc.

Yeah, not talking about prayer before surgery. I would most certainly hope that anybody weilding a knife into the soft parts of any person should ask God to steady their hand.

The discussion is about when that MD is talking to you, not cutting on you. And even then, nothing wrong with praying with your doctor, if thats what you ask. But I still don't think that the office or ER is the place to convince someone to visit an SDA church, or come over for bible studies. Why not let the patient see the light of God in your life, without handing out pamphlets or encouraging them to attend the next service at the local church.

When a patient has a good experience with the MD, they will more likely come back. Then, they will see how God is working in the life of that MD, and they will seek to know that same God. But if you overstep your boundries, you will push that patient away, certainly from God, and probably from quality health care. And I think we can all agree that seeing your MD on a regular basis is one of the best things we can do for our bodies. Certainly Sister White felt this way, as she helped to establish the Loma Linda Medical School, and advance the cause of health care for all people.

Thanks, fun2, for your comments. I appreciate that.

Sure you can argue as much as you want and about this.

But this still not answer the very basic question.....why God did that?


Again, God's messengers/prophets/apostles were mostly non theologians. And I'm fully believe that God-from generation to generation-must be able to choose the experts from religion field with perfect theology background to choose as His messengers.

But God didn't do that. Why?

In other words, my question is: "The majority of His prophets or messengers were not the right men in the right place (mismanagement) because they're not theologians. In fact, even after God choose them, those messengers/prophets still need to do their job as usual since nobody pay for their salary. Why did you do like that, God, I just don't get it."

Anyway, isn't God has multi-billion upon billion holy Angels? I think this is a big mistake of God since He never use any of His Angels that being sent from heaven and appear personally as if business as usual everyday...those angels have a full time job as pastors to serve the sinners and to win souls to Christ. What a big mistake!

That's simply my question.

Any idea?

And another job description of Angels in case they're being sent here as pastors is to ban, not to allowed God's people on earth especially in the medical field to witness about their Saviour while they're still at work. The consequence if this rule is being violated is that the Angels then will blotted out their names from the book of life because they talk about religion and their Jesus at work...Not good. This is to interfere Angels' job as pastors.

But the Angels won't do anything and not considered as violations if God's People on earth-especially in medical field--talking about Football, Baseball, Olympics, NBA, Movie stars, $700 billions bailouts, election, sharing coupons, mucic concerts, etc. at work. No religion or Jesus involved in their chatting at work. So...no problem.

I feel certain that none of us can answer for God. And only He know's why he works with the people He does.

I think that it's less about who God chooses, and more about those who choose to let God lead in their lives. I don't think God was sitting up there, and pointing out non-religious leaders to spread His gospel. I think people have been moved by the power of God, and have invited Him in to their lives, so that they can be a witness for Him, not the other way around.

I am unaware that angels are able to come to earth, and take the form of humans. So I can't really comment about what angels might be able to do. If you could provide biblical reference for angels taking human form (as far as I know, only Jesus has taken human form), then maybe I could comment.

I don't think there's a problem with mixing work and religion, in most cases. But there are certainly some times that it's not in the best interst of persons to push personal spiritual views upon others, one case being a patient doctor relationship.

Dear Mr(s) fun2believe,

As my highest respect to you, I just wanna humbly remind you not too much to be objective and personal when dealing with this "witnessing to patients" issue.

When we believe God want us to be His witnesses wherever and whenever we are, but at the same time I don't think it is not wise at all for us to deal with their personal issue such as, "What if", or "This doctor push his personal spiritual view upon others" etc.

Well, I am sorry but that's not your business. No matter how bad or how stupid the physicians, nurses or dentists on HOW they are witnessing about our Precious Saviour Jesus Christ at their works, the way they're witnessing to their patients are not your business at all !!!

Wouldn't it be nice if you are not be bothered....not to feel uncomfortable or at least not to be so judgemental in your view?

You see some "bad apples". But you then are going to trash the rest of the full-basket of good apples, and finally promise to yourself that you don't wanna deal nor buy any apple anymore forever because of that some few bad apples?


Love in Christ,
d

Delta,

I appreciate this opportunity we have to openly discuss issues that are clearly close to our hearts. I'm glad we live in a time and place where people from great distances and different backgrounds can come together and openly, and respectfully, share with one anohter matters of religion and personal conviction.

After careful consideration of your reply, I must respctfully disagree with your assessment.

First of all, being "objective" about these situations is exactly what we should be doing. Being "subjective" is what we shouldn't do when looking at something of this magnatude. To be objective is to adhere strictly to truth-conducive methods in one's thinking, particularly, to take into account all available information, and to avoid any form of prejudice, bias, or wishful thinking.

Second, I feel this IS my business, just as much as it is your business. I believe this is an open forum on the subject, and thus, I have equally as much right to be "personal" about my feelings as you have clearly been. On top of that, the whole point of having a conference on the subject, open to people other than physicians, is to get the input of those people whom it directly affects. If our church is going to push an agenda, which this clearly is, then we as members have a right and responsibility to weigh in on such a sensitive subject.

Additionally, medical doctors that are board certified here in america, are held to certain ethical standards for the protection of all patients. These standards state the following in regards to religion in the patient doctor relationship.

From the AMA official website at http://www.ama-assn.org/ama1/pub/upload/mm/384/cpearl_0505.pdf

"There has been a great deal of discussion in the literature regarding the ethical and boundary issues involved in incorporating spirituality into medical care [5]. In a multicultural society, it is important to keep in mind that physicains and patients frequently do not come from the same cultural background or belief system. Since patients in medical and spiritual distress are often in a vulnerable position, it is critical that health care providers be sensitive and careful in their approach to patients. Physicians should also be aware of their limitations in training and expertise in spiritual care and should utilize the help of trined chaplains in complex or difficult situations."

That being said, you are absolutely correct in that the patient doctor relationship is one that is private and protected by law to stay that way, for the best interst of the patient. However, neither you, nor I, nor the Adventist church has the right to impinge our views onto physicians concerning witnessing to patients while that patient is under the care of that physician.

Just as a patient is vulnerable when under the care of a physician, MD's are vulnerable when under the influence of the chruch. When the church starts to tell physicians how to deal with their patients, that's when we as members must step forward and object. Just as you don't want the government to tell your church how to worship, we shouldn't allow the church to tell MD's how to provide service to their patients.

Now that's not to say that MD's shouldn't discuss spirituality with their patients. The same AMA that warns MD's to be responsible about this issue, also states the following.

"During the last 10 years there has been a considerable increase in the number of studies shwoing positive associations between spirituality and health [1,2]. Incorporating spirituality into medical practice, however, continues to pose many challenges [3]. These include the multicultural milieu in which medicine is practiced and the deeply personal meaning these issues carry for both patients and health care providers. A culturally sensitive spiritual assessment is a first step towards addressing the spiritual needs of patients [4]. It also provides a tool through which health professionals can understand their own beliefs, biases, values, and needs as related to health care."

And finally, the AMA set of ethics regarding spirituality states

"Once a patient's spiritual needs have been assessed, there are several options for health care professionals not specifically trained as clinical chaplains.
1. Do no more--sometimes just giving the patient the opportunity to express his or her concerns in a safe, compassionate environment is enough.
2. Incorporate the patients "OWN" spiritual resources into preventive care or as adjuvant care.
3. Modify the treatment plan based on the patient's identified spiritual needs; eg, continue or stop heroic life sustaining measures; refer a patient in spiritual distress to a trained clinical chaplain; teach simple relaxation or meditation techniques to patients interested in this approach; consider alteratives to blood products for patients who are JW."

****Please note that the CAPS of "OWN" is directly from the AMA, underscoring the importance in using the patients already established spiritual belief system.****


So, what does all this mean? Well to me, it means that MDs should encourage pt's to be spiritual, whatever that means to them, as studies show this does lead to greater health. However, an MD should NOT use this time as a way to try to convert someone from their own belief system, into the Adventist church! That would be taking advantage of someone in a vulnerable position, and that's breaking the ethical rules set forth by the governing body of the American Medical Association, as well not providing the basic respect for another human being.

I don't think my point of view throws out all the apples. I've stated, and agree with, the view point that spirituality should be a part of the patient doctor relationship. And that's apples that should stay in the basket. But the apples that shouldn't make the final cut are those that would remove the rights of patients, and allow the agenda of a church, or MD's associaited with that chruch, to be pushed on vulnerable people.

You are also correct that it would be nice if this subject matter didn't bother me. However, it's clearly too late for that. And since I'm so moved by God on this subject matter (I've spent some considerable time speaking with my Saviour on the matter), I feel it's important to show others just how injurious this type of "witnessing" can be.

So, I'll try not to be "judgemental" in my postings, and just present the facts, thus being "objective". I hope you can do the same.


God Bless

Thanks F2B for all your good comments on this important topic.

I especially think that one should do what they have skill in doing ... so I agree with the following:



If in doubt ... REFER.

I was in the medical field for 20 years and was clearly trained at Loma Linda University where I graduated ... to always keep this in mind.

We need some of those guys (generic) to post here.

in Christ,

Bob

You might enjoy seeing how whole person care in being made an integral part of the student curriculum and resident training at the Loma Linda University Adventist Health Sciences Center.
Go to http://www.llu.edu/lluahsc.html and search using the phrase "whole person care."

Students round with Dr Wilbur Alexander and learn how to incorporate taking a spiritual history in their patient workups.

And visit the Center For Spiritual Life & Wholeness at
http://www.llu.edu/llu/wholeness/
and the Center for Christian Bioethics at
http://www.llu.edu/llu/bioethics/

Every hospital I know of asks the patient what religion they are so that appropriate services and treatment that is culturally and religiously appropriate can be administrated and referred if needed. I think this is only responsible.