It is not simply a matter of whether someone says they believe something is not a sin. God alone reads the heart and sees how much a person knows and whether they have opportunity to know the truth. I've known people who've said that they didn't want to know the Bible because if they knew the Bible, they would be held accountable for it. They felt they would not be held accountable if they were ignorant. But the Bible talks about those who are "willingly ignorant."

Homosexuality, of course, is a sin, whether a person realizes it or not. Just like Sabbath-breaking." The difference is that if a person has honestly and sincerely accepted Christ, their sins of true ignorance are covered by Jesus' blood and righteousness. But the Holy Spirit in time will convict them of their sin. The Holy Spirit will work on their hearts as long as they are receptive and there's any hope of repentance. He worked on my heart for 30 years, so the Holy Spirit does not give up easily.

The thing is I am not so sure that we have 30 more years for the Holy Spirit to work on our hearts. Jesus may come before 30 more years pass. He could. It depends on the church.



Why do you need to think of sin in that way before you stop doing it?

What we should be thinking of is what those sins did to Christ and how they harm our personal relationship with Christ and make Him look bad. Otherwise we are just thinking of sin in a selfish way.

And Christ expanded the law. He taught that self-seeking and self-love were sin also. You keep the letter, Gerry, but you fail to keep the spirit. So cut the self-righteous nonsense.

Rob

No, John...Sabbath breaking is not sin! It will become a seal. When it does become an issue those who oppose it will also oppose the "truth as it is in Christ" (the gospel)!

Self-love...and self-seeking (which you keep ignoring) are the sins of iniquity. Ellen White clearly brings this out....So does the Bible. But the self-righteous ignores this.

Clearly you are not measuring up, yet you keep pounding folks with law, law, law. And what's ironic is you only list the ones you can outwardly keep and those you can't you ignore. What utter self-righteousness!

God hasn't changed the definition of sin. Sin is still sin. He can't change it, because the law is a transcript or written expression of God's character, and God's character never changes. Therefore His moral law cannot possibly change. We can be glad that God doesn't change.

There are some things that even God can't do. One of those things is lie. He can't change his own character.

Remember what the Bible calls sins of ignorance. See Lev. 4: 2, for instance. Just because we don't know it's a sin doesn't mean it isn't a sin. Once we are aware of it, God expects us to change and do what we know to be right, but while we are sincerely ignorant He doesn't hold us responsible for it. It is a principle we see also in Acts 17: 30-- "And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent."

There is no where that Ellen White or the Bible say breaking any of the commandments, including the fourth, is not a sin. God simply considers people's ignorance and lack of understanding.

Yes, he did, and he also taught that we should be loving and kind to everyone, especially to those who are our brothers in Christ, even if they disagree with us.

You are right that Christ expanded the law. That means that he didn't make it smaller, or subtract one of the laws, making it suddenly 9 instead of 10. The Ten Commandments are still 10 Commandments.

Do you believe the seventh day of the week is blessed and holy now? How long has it been holy?

Why is anyone going to keep the seventh-day Sabbath when they believe it doesn't matter what the Ten Commandments say? If faith releases us from the law, as you believe it does, why does it matter which day of the week they keep holy?

If it is not a sin now to break the Sabbath, wouldn't God be arbitrary to make it a sin suddenly at some time in the future?

Bible please.

in the mean time - we find in Romans 3 that the Law of God CONTINUES to show what sin is and to show that mankind is sinful.


Your idea that breaking God's Law is not sin -- needs some work.



True -- but that is like saying "To Catholics worshiping idols is not sin -- but one day it will be sin when God convicts them of it more specifically".

Or "To Cahtolics praying to the dead is not sin -- but one day it will be sin when God convicts them of it more specifially"

I agree with the statement "Whatever is not of faith is sin" in Rom 14 and in James 4:17 "To him who knows to do right and does it not -- to him it is sin"

But as we see in Romans 1 "they are without excuse" for that which is evident about God was made known to them -- yet they supressed the truth and believed a lie" vs 25. These non-Bible non-believing barbarians and pagans were said by God to be "without excuse" in their denial of the Creator and the binding claims of the creator -- yet many today in that position claim that they are not convicted of any such thing. (Videos already posted on these boards on the Origins thread to that effect)

The fact that they claim to be blind to some point of truth in scripture -- does not mean that they actually are -- only God knows and God will judge in each case.

But as for the Bible position on the Law of God placing mankind under obligation - under sin...



God says the Law is binding upon all - and shows that all are sinners.




How odd that you so directly attack this point that Paul is making. Where do you think that is getting you? How do you suppose that to be helping your argument?

in Christ,

Bob

The day isn't holy...You aren't holy...only God is holy. The day pointed to a perfect & holy creation because all of it was made in God's image after His likeness. Days aren't holy....The 7th-day is a sign and what it points to is perfect and complete [holy].




It doesn't....And only a holy person could keep something holy. Are you holy? Don't make me quote Ellen!

Rob

And then there is Paul -- as I pointed out above.

in Christ,

Bob

Again it is written: "So God blessed the seventh day AND MADE IT HOLY, because on it God rested from all his work that he had done in creation." Gen 2:3 ESV.

That only God is ESSENTIALLY holy - we agree, but a holy God can declare anything holy as He wishes. And that includes the sanctuary and all that it contained, and even days, yes, especially the Sabbath.


Yes, you are absolutely right - that only a holy person can keep somethig holy. That is why Jesus said, "You must be born again! That which is born of the flesh is flesh, and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit." Jn 3:7,6.

The promise to the profane sinner is: "And you, who once were alienated and hostile in mind, doing evil deeds, He has now reconciled in His body of flesh by His death, in order TO PRESENT YOU HOLY AND BLAMELESS and above reproach before Him...." Col 1:21,22 ESV.

"And by that will we have been sanctified [made holy - NCV, NLT, NIV, Amp] through the offering of the body of Jesus Christ once for all." Heb 10:10 ESV.

This is the whole object of the atoning blood of Christ, to sanctify, i.e. make holy one who is profane/unholy, who was/is made such by sin.

"For the mind that is set on the flesh is hostile to God, FOR IT DOES NOT SUBMIT TO GOD'S LAW; INDEED IT CANNOT. Those who are in the flesh cannot please God." Rom 8:7,8 ESV.

So when a lawless rebel is born again, is given a holy heart, a holy mind, holy attitude, holy purposes. He now submits to God's law and keep it! Then the Sabbath to him becomes the sign, the seal, of sanctification by faith, the sign that sinful man cannot make himself holy, but that GOD CAN!



Gerry