Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? - unOFFICIAL ADVENTIST FORUM

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#186814 - 09/19/08 03:58 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10828 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 It is true that God made the world and Adam and Eve perfect, but that does not prove your point that since the Fall, the Sabbath no longer points to God as our Creator. Again, He created Adam perfect. We are fallen....We are not in the likeness of God, but rather Adam after the fall. So? How does the fact that we are fallen show that the Sabbath no longer points to God as the Creator? The texts dealing with the subject do not say any such thing as you are making it out to say. Where does it say anywhere in the Bible that the Sabbath is a memorial of creation ONLY IF MAN AND THE WORLD IS STILL PERFECT TODAY? It does not say that, does it? You are making an assumption when you make the connection, unless you see a Bible text that itself makes the connection. What is the strongest case for your point? I am open to your idea here, but I have to see it in the Bible, and you've so far not given me that evidence. You have only given me an assumption and a conclusion.
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#186817 - 09/19/08 04:06 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 Nowhere in the Bible does it say that when we rest on the Sabbath, we are agreeing that the world is perfect NOW. John....You are not listening! I said that the Sabbath is a sign that God's work of creation was perfect. That's why He rested. He didn't begin creating again after the 7th day. His rest was a perpetual rest until the fall. Go to Ex 20:11 “Remember the Sabbath day by keeping it holy. 9 Six days you shall labor and do all your work, 10 but the seventh day is a Sabbath to the LORD your God. On it you shall not do any work...." Why remember? Because it is tied back to the creation of the world. Why does it command "no work"? What does me not doing any work have to do with the Sabbath? Answer: Who rested? Right, God! Why did He rest? Answer: Because His work was final...it was complete and it was perfect. That's what it says in the Genesis account, which is linked to the 4th commandment. _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#186818 - 09/19/08 04:07 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10828 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 "But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life." What is Paul saying in Romans 6: 22? Look at the context! Rom 6:6....our old self was crucified with him so that the body of sin might be done away with, that we should no longer be slaves to sin— [explain:] 7 because anyone who has died has been freed from sin. What Paul is stating is that your old life from Adam died in the humanity of Christ. Hence as far as the law is concerned, you are dead killed by the law itself. Dead man can't sin, now can they? That's what Paul means by "no longer slaves to sin".... Rom 8:1-2 says the same: There is therefore now no condemnation for those who are in Christ Jesus. [why?] 2 For the law of the Spirit of life in Christ Jesus has set you free from the law of sin and of death. "In Christ" our humanity was freed from the sin nature and the wages of sin, death. Again, that's Paul's foundation. Yes, you are to consider yourself dead to sin and alive to God by faith, but in reality you know we come up short. Hence, if we say we are without sin...well, we are terribly deceived. Come on John, you're light years off in your theology. Do you know why? Tradition & you refuse to accept anything outside the limited knowledge of Ellen White. That's no different than the Lutheran who won't accept anything outside Martin Luther teachings. ROb 1) Are all Christians who have been justified "freed from sin" in the sense that is meant in Romans 6? 2) Are all Christians who have accepted Christ a "slave of righteousness"? 3) Is the man of Romans 7 "freed from sin" and "a slave of righteousness"?
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#186819 - 09/19/08 04:14 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 I have to see it in the Bible, and you've so far not given me that evidence. Gen 1:26 Then God said, “Let us make man in our image, in our likeness....27 So God created man in his own image, in the image of God he created him; male and female he created them. .... And it was so. 31 God saw all that he had made, and it was very good [perfect]. And there was evening, and there was morning—the sixth day. 2:1 Thus the heavens and the earth were completed in all their vast array. 2 By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work. 3 And God blessed the seventh day and set it apart, [why?] because on it he rested from all the work of creating that he had done. Why did God rest? _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#186821 - 09/19/08 04:21 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 1) Are all Christians who have been justified "freed from sin" in the sense that is meant in Romans 6? Yes, in the humanity of Christ.... Quote: 2) Are all Christians who have accepted Christ a "slave of righteousness"? No, because Christ doesn't force....We can experience, but there's no force. So, Paul must be writing of something else. Quote: 3) Is the man of Romans 7 "freed from sin" and "a slave of righteousness"? Yes, in christ.... Are you freed from sin in your own body? Are you a slave of righteousness, or are you falling short? _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#186822 - 09/19/08 04:21 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10828 Loc: CA	OK, sure, I can see that God rested and made the Sabbath because He was finished making the world and that the world was perfect at that time, before the Fall. Now what I am trying to see is how the Fall changed the reason for keeping the Sabbath-- which was due to God's being our Creator. It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. Therefore, once it was no longer perfect, how did that fact change the fundamental truth that God created us? Also, who do you believe was the first person to see this idea? When does it first occur in the history of Christian theology?
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#186823 - 09/19/08 04:29 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested! And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work" Again, why did God rest? _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#186824 - 09/19/08 04:34 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: Robert]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested! And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work" Again, why did God rest? The verses are clear: God rested, not because He was tired, but because His creation was sinless...it was perfect. So the Sabbath from God's point of view marks the day that His perfect, sinless work stood complete. He entered a perpetual rest. "His rest" is a symbol...a sign...that His work stood finished and perfect. Now, when you rest as God rested what are you stating, symbolically? Are you not agreeing with God? What does your not working have to do with God's not working? Yes? Rob _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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#186826 - 09/19/08 04:40 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: Robert]
John317 Registered: 11/13/05 Posts: 10828 Loc: CA	Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested! And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work" Again, why did God rest? OK. You are saying then that since the world is no longer perfect, that fact of itself means it is no longer valid to rest or keep the Sabbath because of creation. Why then did God put the memorial of the Sabbath in the center of the Ten Commandments, drawing attention to His creation-- and this, long after the world was no longer perfect? When did this understanding first appear, so far as you know? This teaching requires a certain deduction and is not something plainly stated or taught in Scripture. Do you agree?
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#186828 - 09/19/08 04:44 AM Re: Was the Sabbath just for the Jews...? [Re: John317]
Robert Registered: 07/14/01 Posts: 15756 Loc: Columbia, SC	Originally Posted By: John317 Originally Posted By: Robert Originally Posted By: John317 It is true that the original creation was perfect. Granted. But the essential reason for the Sabbath was that God created us, not that it was perfect. You can't leave the "perfect" part out. Why? That's why He rested! And God saw everything that he had made, and behold, it was very good [perfect]....By the seventh day God had finished the work he had been doing; so on the seventh day he rested from all his work" Again, why did God rest? OK. You are saying then that since the world is no longer perfect, that fact of itself means it is no longer valid to rest or keep the Sabbath because of creation. I am saying that God rested because His works was "....." And when we rest we are agreeing with that truth....But it's no longer true. That's why we see a change in the law from creation...to redemption. _________________________ "We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"
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