Let me suggest that the Bible is essentially silent on the issue of my Question 2 above - a homosexual orientation. This may be partly because the notion of a person's sexual orientation is itself a much more recent event: in the past people talked about actions rather than states of being.

But also, most of the relevant Biblical texts seem to be about a process of actively choosing homosexual activity, in some sense as a 'thrill' or as a perversion of a presumed heterosexual orientation. So we have texts such as the following from Romans 1:

24Wherefore God also gave them up to uncleanness through the lusts of their own hearts, to dishonour their own bodies between themselves:

25Who changed the truth of God into a lie, and worshipped and served the creature more than the Creator, who is blessed for ever. Amen.

26For this cause God gave them up unto vile affections: for even their women did change the natural use into that which is against nature:

27And likewise also the men, leaving the natural use of the woman, burned in their lust one toward another; men with men working that which is unseemly, and receiving in themselves that recompence of their error which was meet.

This seems to suggest that the people being discussed were 'naturally' attracted to the opposite sex, but chose to turn their attention on those of their own sex.

How does this relate to those who are naturally attracted to their own sex?

No, it does not 'seem to suggest' that. The notion of 'attraction' is imposed upon the text. The phrase translated "natural use" has nothing to do with attraction and every thing to do with function.

The'natural' sexual function of the male genitalia is to mate (in the sense of 'fitting together') with female genitalia, and vice versa. That is the 'use' for which 'nature' designed them.



From the text, to be 'naturally attracted to their own sex,' is an oxymoron, a contradiction in terms.

The only words in the text which speak to 'attraction' would be the words 'burned in their lust,' the Greek "exekauthesan en te orexei." "exekauthesan" or "burning" speaks of passion, and 'orexei' has to do with 'craving, desire.'

So the text refers to those who abandoned the natural "function" (the one for which their bodies were designed) precisely because they had a 'passionate craving' for members of their own sex.



Where is there evidence in the text of "actively choosing" anything?

God gave them up to their "vile affections." Gr: "pathe atimia." "Pathe" is an emotion, with a primary sense of a 'mishap'--that's not something chosen. And "atimia" is 'disgraceful, dishonorable,' again, not a choice.

It could be argued from these texts that a "homosexual orientation" that is, "burning with lust for members of the same sex" is sinful, except for two things.

1)"Homosexual orientation" is a modern notion, alien to the Bible. But then so is "a presumed heterosexual orientation." Men's bodies were designed to couple sexually with women, and vice versa. That's not an 'orientation,' that's basic design. For anyone to actively desire that for which they were not designed is at least neurotic. I may want to fly by flapping my arms, or may desire to bear a child, but my body was not made for those things.

2) From the text, "Homosexual deisres" are sinful desires. But temptation is not sin. Not when I am tempted to eat another donut, not when I am tempted by the sight of a beautiful woman. All of us have sinful desires, and will have until glorification.

To "study" the subject should be a fairly short exercise. Are there more than 5 references to look at? mel

I believe you. It no doubt is hard for you believe.

Maybe a few more, but not too many more than that. I'd say at the most 10 that are directly related.

I agree with you that the Bible is silent on orientation, and I believe the reason is that we can't help our orientation. Very few people deliberately choose which gender they are attracted to, although there is some choice in the matter. It can be a gradual process due to entertaining sinful thoughts and imaginings that influence the direction of the individual's sexual interests.

For me the orientation is similar to the temptation, or rather it is what can allow the temptation to occur. We generally have no conscious control over our sexual orientation. Once it is done, it's done.

I believe that orientation results from multiple factors, including heredity, exposure to hormones during development, and very early childhood experiences.

When I read 1 Cor. 6: 9-11, I get the picture of people who are no longer practicing sin but who today would be called "gay" in the sense of orientation. I don't believe God condemns us for our orientation any more than he condemns people for being tempted.

Perhaps you could post some examples here of people who say that being gay is a sin but that they refuse to acknowledge they are sinning. This would be instructive rather than just saying it is so. To say something is a sin but that they are not sinning by doing it ... just don't make no sense to me.

We might compare homosexuality with other sins.

We see the nation of Israel falling into idolatry just over and over again. It's also dealt with alot in the new testament.

But we never see homosexuality take over the nation.

So what's the difference?

Homosexuality VS. Idolatry

Idolatry seems normal. It seems God should be with us. That's how it was before the fall. Israel was given the Ark, which was like an idol. They where very zealous for the care of it and the sanctuary and the temple. They where very zealous for the temple in the new testament, too.

So idolatry is forbidden, because God has given us His Word and His Spirit to represent Himself. Idolatry denies this. The idol always seems to give you it's approval. Ellen White says it blunts your concept of God, or something like that.

We could get into that in another topic.

But the fact is God can wink at the ignorance of idolatry:

Acts 17:29 Forasmuch then as we are the offspring of God, we ought not to think that the Godhead is like unto gold, or silver, or stone, graven by art and man's device.
17:30 And the times of this ignorance God winked at; but now commandeth all men every where to repent:

Idolatry is accepted everywhere as a legitimate form of worship, but God's people are called to discern it as evil.

So it doesn't seem idolatry can be seen as a self-evident thing.

But I would go so far as to say, homosexuality is an abomination.

Another thing that seems not so self-evident is fornication.

Fornication VS. homosexuality

Alot of warning in the new testament against fornication. Paul says if you go to a prostitute, you are getting married to her:

1 Cor. 6:16 What? know ye not that he which is joined to an harlot is one body? for two, saith he, shall be one flesh.

Fornication is like getting married and then getting a divorce. And Jesus says divorce is adultery, (Matt. 19:7).

So alot of discussion on fornication in the new testament. This is not self-evident that it's wrong. Alot of people are sure that it's right, and seem to seek it out. If any part of them tells them it's wrong, that influence isn't taken too seriously. Fornication is advertised and glorified every where in the world.

I could say more, and I know you guys won't agree, and will continue arguing that we should baptize gays, but am really not that enthusiastic about this kind of topic. I will just let it go for now.

Personally I think we should be equal opportunity baptizers. No matter what the sin ... people should be allowed to come to Christ. He says come as you are. I take him at his word.

I do think it is unfortunate to have all this focus on Homosexuals. It is like some enjoy the publicity. It is just another sin folks. If you are guilty of one ... you are guilty of all. The sooner we realize this ... the better.

Here is what I said:



I am talking here about two different people, not the same person. Some people refuse to acknowledge that something is a sin. Other people are struggling against something they already know is sinful.

Would you like examples of those different kinds of people? Let me know, and I'll give them to you if you need to have a clearer picture in your mind's eye.