Well, let's say that you, like the 20 people one of my PhD students interviewed as part of his research, are born both gay and Christian. You are often ostracized and reviled and told that your very being is wrong, or that your choices are iniquitous. And even the most 'tolerant' Christians tell you that it's not a sin to be you, but it's a sin to have any sexual relationship at all - you must be a lifelong celibate. I would think that's a pretty big deal to you, and worth spending a little discussion on...

That is where the New Birth comes in. The Holy Spirit gives a person new motives and love for God. Therefore it is not necessary to do right in order to gain benefits. You live for God because it glorifies God and makes Jesus look good, and you do it simply because you have the Spirit or seed of God in you. 1 John 3: 1-10; 5:18.

Yes, this is a very big deal indeed for those who find themselves "gay" and experiencing these feelings.

There is a sense in which it is me. I admit that. God knows this. I can't do anything about that, and He knows this too. I am helpless to change.

I have spent years in the very condition you are talking about, and I made up my mind that there was no way I was going to sleep by myself. I had to have someone every night, even if it meant doing what I thought was probably wrong. I didn't see how it could be right by the Bible but at the same time I knew God certainly couldn't have planned for me to have no intimate relations with anyone.

So that is what I did for many years. But then one day I was studying the Bible with a man who pointed out a verse that I had already read hundreds of times: 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. He knew that I was gay, but we didn't talk about it. He just let me know in subtle ways that he was well aware I was gay. We studied the Bible together for over a year and a half several times a week, often spending 3 hours a day each time. So he said, "John, you see these verses here. Read those out-loud to me." I read them. Then a couple of days later, he had me read them out loud to him again. Finally he said, "Do you understand what those verses are saying? Tell me what they say." I told him that the verses say that those who practice homosexuality will not inherit the kingdom of God.

He asked me to read the 11th verse. The verse makes plain that some of his readers had been practicing homosexuals but that they are such no longer.

I believe now that it was during those moments when the Holy Spirit opened my mind up to the possibility of God's changing me. Not so I would no longer be gay-- but so that I could obey Him and at the same time have a fulfilled life. I prayed right then that the Holy Spirit would come into my life and also do the same in me that He had done in Paul's day for those homosexuals of the first century. I simply had faith that He would fulfill His promise.

It was a day to day-- even a moment by moment-- experience. Every day I trust Him to take me through that day. I believe His promises that He can and does heal people of their sins-- not only justifies or forgives them, but sanctifies and washes them.

I didn't worry about consequences. I didn't think, "I've got to have sex with someone."

Instead, "I've got to do God's will. I've got to trust Him. I've got to allow Him total control of me and of my body and mind. It doesn't matter what else happens, but I've got to let Him be Lord of my life. This one thing I must do."

That's where I am today.

Bottom line is that the sinful nature is not as wonderful and nice as so many people may have supposed.



This is the sinful nature that ALL have.

This is the lost condition that ALL come from.

After being justified we STILL have that sinful nature - but we are no longer its slave according to Romans 6.

And as we see in Romans 7- the battle takes place in earnest between the NEW nature of the New creation and the OLD nature -- the sin nature.

You have selected one specific sin and have landed on the question of whether it is wrong to have that sin as part of your sinful nature. Well - what did you think the sinful nature was -- a shiny sports car?

in Christ,

Bob

I think you've missed the point. The point of the thread was to find out what the Bible actually teaches about whether homosexuality is sin, so comments already assuming that it is are off the topic of the thread. And the past few posts have been about the question of 'why pay attention to this issue'. The point is that it is an important issue for those who it impacts on, and I do have a concern for those people, for reasons I explained.

I responded to John's argument about the character -- even for one who does not engage in the sin. When I point out that this is part of the Romans 3 sinful nature in that case - I am not arguing that it is not sin but is part of the sinful nature (as apparently your response seems to conclude).

I am arguing that sinful tendancies -- even this one - are built into the sinful nature of Romans 3. Having a sinful nature is not the sin -- yielding to it is. I think the OP asks if the act is sin -- and of course Lev 18 says it is -- just as Romans 1 does.

(already pointed out here...
http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...ch_a#Post188983
)

But then the conversation turned to the issue of not committing the act - just having the tendency left in the sinful nature.

If all are depraved as we see in Romans 3 -- then it makes no sense to ask about one form of sin in the sinful nature and ask if THAT one is ok to have - as long as you don't commit the sin. They are ALL sinful! But having a sinful nature is not the same thing as sinning.

in Christ,

Bob

When one turns over their heart to God ... the works just flow naturally. Not much work involved. It is like breathing. .../quote]


Says the prophet: "Who may abide the day of His coming? and who shall stand when He appeareth? for He is like a refiner's fire, and like fullers' soap: and He shall sit as a refiner and purifier of silver: and He shall purify the sons of Levi, and purge them as gold and silver, that they may offer unto the Lord an offering in righteousness." Malachi 3:2, 3. Those who are living upon the earth when the intercession of Christ shall cease in the sanctuary above are to stand in the sight of a holy God without a mediator. Their robes must be spotless, their characters must be purified from sin by the blood of sprinkling. Through the grace of God and their own diligent effort they must be conquerors in the battle with evil. While the investigative judgment is going forward in heaven, while the sins of penitent believers are being removed from the sanctuary, there is to be a special work of purification, of putting away of sin, among God's people upon earth. This work is more clearly presented in the messages of Revelation 14.

When this work shall have been accomplished, the followers of Christ will be ready for His appearing. "Then shall the offering of Judah and Jerusalem be pleasant unto the Lord, as in the days of old, and as in former years." Malachi 3:4. Then the church which our Lord at His coming is to receive to Himself will be a "glorious church, not having spot, or wrinkle, or any such thing." Ephesians 5:27. Then she will look "forth as the morning, fair as the moon, clear as the sun, and terrible as an army with banners." Song of Solomon 6:10. GC Chapter 24

By adherence to principle in the transactions of ordinary life, the mind becomes accustomed to hold the claims of duty above those of pleasure and inclination. Minds thus disciplined are not wavering between right and wrong, like the reed trembling in the wind; they are loyal to duty because they have trained themselves to habits of fidelity and truth. By faithfulness in that which is least they acquire strength to be faithful in greater matters.

An upright character is of greater worth than the gold of Ophir. Without it none can rise to an honorable eminence. But character is not inherited. It cannot be bought. Moral excellence and fine mental qualities are not the result of accident. The most precious gifts are of no value unless they are improved. The formation of a noble character is the work of a lifetime and must be the result of diligent and persevering effort. God gives opportunities; success depends upon the use made of them. PP 223


Christians should be preparing for what is soon to break upon the world as an overwhelming surprise, and this preparation they should make by diligently studying the Word of God and striving to conform their lives to its precepts.--Prophets and Kings, p. 626 (c. 1914).

None but those who have fortified the mind with the truths of the Bible will stand through the last great conflict.--The Great Controversy, pp. 593, 594 (1911).

Only those who have been diligent students of the Scriptures and who have received the love of the truth will be shielded from the powerful delusion that takes the world captive.--The Great Controversy, p. 625 (1911).

Our people need to understand the oracles of God; they need to have a systematic knowledge of the principles of revealed truth, which will fit them for what is coming upon the earth and prevent them from being carried about by every wind of doctrine.--Testimonies for the Church, vol. 5, p. 273 (1885).

I can appreciate your post here and your concerns, but the issue we're taking up on this thread is whether the practice of homosexuality is a sin. The reason we are doing this is that we live in a world now-- even in the churches-- where, increasingly, it simply cannot be taken for granted that people are convinced it's a sin. Personally I do believe that the practice of it is wrong from the viewpoint of the Bible, but there are still very complex issues involved.

I think you may have misunderstood what I was saying. I'm not merely talking about not committing the "act of homosexuality." I'm talking about the in-filling of the Holy Spirit in a person's life so they have no desire to do those things. I believe that is what 1 Cor. 6: 9-11 is talking about.

For myself, I cannot imagine living my life with a constant longing to commit sin. That would not be freedom, happiness and spiritual fulfillment. But that doesn't at all describe my life. If my mind was full of the same thoughts and desires as it used to be, and if I was just wishing I could do those things, I might as well go ahead and do them. That is the way I think about that. The thoughts themselves would be sin, as Jesus said. But I don't have those thoughts. Jesus Christ has taken them away.

But my concern on this thread is that most gay people do not believe this is possible. They don't even believe it is a sin. Why? Because even from Christians, they often hear that there is nothing wrong with it. And they hear voices from virtually everywhere in our society that it is perfectly OK.

Well I came out here saying that it is --


http://adventistforum.com/forum/ubbthrea...ch_a#Post188983

I have not found any posts yet saying it is not -- or did I miss something?




This is that OTHER point then that I was getting to --

1. The reality of the sin nature AFTER being justified
2. The reality of the war that Paul admits to taking place AFTER being justified - after being born-again -- as I keep pointing to in Romans 7

Glorification is when we actually lose that Romans 3 "Sinful nature" even though in this life we are continually engaged in the Romans 8 act of "putting to death the deeds of the flesh" as Paul says "I die daily".

There is no such thing as getting saved and the waking up to discover that you have no sinful tendancies.

As was noted before "sin is sin" - the sinful nature does not leave us at conversion.

I am sure you would agree.

Selecting one sin over others to say "yes my sinful nature can desire sin-a but not sin-b" is getting to a fine point of differentiation that I am not sure we see in scripture.



You sound like Paul in Romans 7 "oh wretched man that I am who shall deliver me"

Or in 1Cor 9 "I buffet my body and make it my slave lest after preaching the Gospel to others I myself should be disqualified"

Or Phil 3 " forgetting those things which are behind -- I PRESS ON".

Nobody ever said that the WAR of Romans 7 was "fun".

I have no doubt that he who covets over time will desire it less and less though he may gain the victory over it every day... he who lies though he can be victorious today will find that the desire for it will be less and less as he PRACTICES obedience.

This is the argument in Heb 5 where we are told to mature and have our senses 'trained by practicing' obedience.

I find that there is a general under-stating of the sinful nature after conversion and in some cases lack of appreciation of the WAR mentioned in Romans 7.



In Romans 3 - Paul describes the sinful nature as NOT wanting at all to do good nor is it in agreement with the Law of God. To desire good and agree with God you need the New Birth.

All of us see in our lives as born-again Christians the fact that we sin and that this is not what we want to do. That does not mean we must sin or that we are lost with every sin -- having our new-nature deleted. It means that we are experiencing the truth of what Paul argues in Romans 7.

I don't care if you talk about anger, or coveting or untruthfulness or gossip or lack of love for your fellow man ... it is all sin. Paul argues for the struggle in Romans 7 as being "real" but as we see in Romans 6 and in 8 Paul does not argue that we must lose that struggle.

Having said that - I go back to my post regarding Lev 18 for the actual act -- and say that this is one of the abominations for which God said he would destroy a non-Christian non-believing pagan nation and that much more for a believing one.


in Christ,

Bob