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#189947 - 10/01/08 04:56 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Bravus]
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 130
Exactly!
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So love is greater than knowledge; how could I have forgotten? Annie Dillard, Holy the Firm | Wishing Doesn't Make It So

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#189948 - 10/01/08 04:57 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Bravus]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10201
Loc: CA
Yes, I agree. I didn't mean to imply that it is the only one possible. I think it is a common one, though. Or at least seems to be.

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#189951 - 10/01/08 05:06 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: John317]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 16926
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
If we use Sola Scriptura to interpret the Bible, that narrows down the interpretations dramatically. When we allow the pope or some other fallible human being or group of fallible human beings used church tradition or natural science to interpret the Bible then we start to get all sorts of interpretations with no solid grounding.
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Link > Shane's Page - update in progress

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#189954 - 10/01/08 05:15 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Shane]
Bravus Moderator Online   content
Husband and Father

Registered: 09/05/04
Posts: 7049
Loc: Brisbane, Australia
Other fallible human beings like Ellen White, you mean?
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#189958 - 10/01/08 05:24 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Bravus]
Shane Offline
Administrator of Foro Adventista

Registered: 02/02/02
Posts: 16926
Loc: Rio Grande Valley, Texas
Ellen White taught the use of Sola Scriptura. She specifically instructed the Adventist church not to use her in lieu of the Bible. That said, she did write about a number of things she received in vision and dreams that is not in the Bible, like the health message but I am not aware of any of those counsels contradicting Scripture.
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#189959 - 10/01/08 05:26 AM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Shane]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10201
Loc: CA
A lot of Adventists don't realize just how important Ellen White was in the development of our church's doctrines. During the Bible Conferences where some of our core doctrines were decided, Ellen White didn't understand the different viewpoints and interpretations. The men would study those things and come together to discuss them, and they would come to conclusions. If they couldn't come to a conclusion, Ellen White would be given a vision, and then she would be shown which view was correct.

No one could say that Ellen White said what she did on the basis of the discussions because everyone knew she didn't even understand what they were saying.

Was Ellen White fallible? Of course she was. All people except Christ have been fallible. The Bible also was written by inspired, fallible men.





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#190011 - 10/01/08 03:21 PM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Bravus]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 621
When I look for evidence that Darwinism is really just junk-science based religion I do not typically go to Creationists - nor even theistic evolutionist sources because you have to admit that some of those TE guys believe in the Bible in some way and so they may have some "outside motivation" for wanting to discredit "some small part" of Darwinism on this point or that point -- just not on all points.

I much prefer the atheist darwinist source who has NO INCENTIVE at ALL to discredit darwinism. When THEY whine about Darwinism showing junk-science underpinning THEN you can know for certain you are on to something!

Quote:

Evolution AS FAITH

Colin Patterson (Senior paleontologist at the British Natural History Museum and author of the Museum’s general text on evolution)

A 1981 lecture presented at New York City's American Museum of Natural History

[quote][size=120]
Colin PATTERSON:

"...I'm speaking on two subjects, evolutionism and creationism, and I believe it's true to say that I know nothing whatever about either...One of the reasons I started taking this anti-evolutionary view,well, let's call it non-evolutionary , was last year I had a sudden realization.

"For over twenty years I had thought that I was working on evolution in some way. One morning I woke up, and something had happened in the night, and it struck me that I had been working on this stuff for twenty years, and there was not one thing I knew about it. "That was quite a shock that one could be misled for so long...

It does seem that the level of knowledge about evolution is remarkably shallow. We know it ought not to be taught in high school, and perhaps that's all we know about it...

about eighteen months ago...I woke up and I realized that all my life I had been duped into taking evolutionism as revealed truth in some way."

Patterson - again quoting Gillespie accusing that those "'...holding creationist ideas could plead ignorance of the means and affirm only the fact,'" Patterson countered, "That seems to summarize the feeling I get in talking to evolutionists today. They plead ignorance of the means of transformation, but affirm only the fact: 'Yes it has...we know it has taken place.'"

"...Now I think that many people in this room would acknowledge that during the last few years, if you had thought about it at all, you've experienced a shift from evolution as knowledge to evolution as faith. I know that's true of me, and I think it's true of a good many of you in here...

"...Evolution not only conveys no knowledge, but seems somehow to convey anti-knowledge [u], apparent knowledge which is actually harmful to systematics..."



Patterson died in the 1990's a confirmed committed atheist darwinist to the last -- lamenting the atheist religionist foundation of his own precious darwinism -- for he would much prefer that it had been actual science!

in Christ,

Bob


Edited by BobRyan (10/01/08 03:23 PM)

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#190012 - 10/01/08 03:28 PM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: BobRyan]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 621
No Christian denomination that embraces Darwinism "as a group" - has done so without first downsizing and then denying the 7th day Sabbath as literally true and binding.

No Christian denomination that has embraced the gay agenda or abortion on demand "as a group" has done so without first embracing evolutionism.

My argument is not that this chain of demise is "instantaneous" -- just that gradual though it may be - it is a rule that appears to hold.



On that last point:

Ellen White stood up politically for moral issue of prohibition in spite of the right to privacy that it invovled.

Ellen White stood up politically for value of human life issue abolishing slavery.

Today we STILL have hot political moral issues from the gay rights groups about rights to privacy and from the pro-abortion groups about the value of human life.

It has not gone away - it just changed forms.

in Christ,

Bob


Edited by BobRyan (10/01/08 03:30 PM)

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#190029 - 10/01/08 06:27 PM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: BobRyan]
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 130
Originally Posted By: BobRyan
No Christian denomination that embraces Darwinism "as a group" - has done so without first downsizing and then denying the 7th day Sabbath as literally true and binding.

No Christian denomination that has embraced the gay agenda or abortion on demand "as a group" has done so without first embracing evolutionism.

What if the SDA church decided to do something different?

Originally Posted By: BobRyan
Ellen White stood up politically for moral issue of prohibition in spite of the right to privacy that it invovled.

Ellen White stood up politically for value of human life issue abolishing slavery.

And she did that without any clear Biblical directive.
_________________________
So love is greater than knowledge; how could I have forgotten? Annie Dillard, Holy the Firm | Wishing Doesn't Make It So

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#190048 - 10/01/08 08:45 PM Re: "Yes, I believe evolution is true." [Re: Vera]
Taylor Offline


Registered: 12/25/04
Posts: 2019
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Vera
Originally Posted By: BobRyan
No Christian denomination that embraces Darwinism "as a group" - has done so without first downsizing and then denying the 7th day Sabbath as literally true and binding.

No Christian denomination that has embraced the gay agenda or abortion on demand "as a group" has done so without first embracing evolutionism.

What if the SDA church decided to do something different?

Taylor's Comment: If we as a church would embrace ANYTHING that goes against the clear Bible teaching, it would be a real pity and a real loss. I know that people think that the Bible isn't a science text book, and that is fine, but it was inspired by a God who knows more than any scientist on the earth and he wouldn't have said "the evening and the morning were the first day" etc if he meant "the evening and the morning were the first 1,000 years". To me it is simple, it doens't matter how much "evidence" evolution comes up with for it being the truth, it flies into the face of God's word and has to be flawed. Oh there can be truth in some of what they say, but the Word of God says that this world was created in 7 days. I would far rather trust God than any brilliant, kind-hearted, wonderful scientist.

Originally Posted By: BobRyan
Ellen White stood up politically for moral issue of prohibition in spite of the right to privacy that it invovled.

Ellen White stood up politically for value of human life issue abolishing slavery.

And she did that without any clear Biblical directive.


Taylor says: Oh my...the Bible is riddled with human rights and the value of the human life. I for one am grateful that she understood the spirit of the gospel as well as the letter of the law or she wouldn't have been so "fair" in what she preached. A right understanding of the Bible would make people fair and honest if they just followed it's teachings. We don't need EGW to figure that out, in my humble opinion. But I am glad she also understood that.

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