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#190569 - 10/04/08 05:49 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: Redwood]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10830
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Redwood
I am not sure why the constant reference to the SoP ...

Rob and I get in trouble when we quote SoP so why not you?


Where or when did this happen?

Quote:

Faith without works is dead.

But the Gospel of Red ... would say that there does not exist such an animal.
For it is simply not possible to have Faith and yet no works. But those works do not add anything to our saved status.


The Bible disagrees with you here, though. That is the reason for the book of James, for instance. It is also the reason for many pages in the Spirit of prophecy.

It is quite true that genuine faith produces good works. Just like a good tree produces good fruit. But is there no such thing as false faith? Or false claims to faith? Surely those things exist, don't they?

Quote:
I would much rather ask 'What does the Bible say?'


But both the Bible and the Spirit of prophecy are apropos here. This is a thread about what the Spirit of prophecy teaches regarding righteousness by faith.



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#190570 - 10/04/08 05:59 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: Redwood]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10830
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Redwood
The first one includes salvation. The second one is not referring to salvation. The second one is talking about AFTER being saved.


"Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything" and "It is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith and Works, p.65,66,27; Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.

Could you tell what both statements mean, that is, what is Ellen White saying here?

And what does the second statement mean to you personally?

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#190574 - 10/04/08 06:01 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: John317]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
But is there no such thing as false faith? Or false claims to faith? Surely those things exist, don't they?


I suppose you could include those that have faith in their works. Their fruit would be ill gained I suppose. But we do know that God will not hold them responsible. For he will not impute their trespasses unto them. IOWs they will get off the hook because Jesus loves them anyway.


Quote:
2 Cor 5:19 "To wit, that God was in Christ, reconciling the world unto himself, not imputing their trespasses unto them; and hath committed unto us the word of reconciliation."
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Love WON Another.
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.

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#190576 - 10/04/08 06:03 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: John317]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: Redwood
The first one includes salvation. The second one is not referring to salvation. The second one is talking about AFTER being saved.


"Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything" and "It is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith and Works, p.65,66,27; Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.

Could you tell what both statements mean, that is, what is Ellen White saying here?

And what does the second statement mean to you personally?


Am I seeing double?
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Love WON Another.
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.

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#190579 - 10/04/08 06:12 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: Redwood]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10830
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: Redwood
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: Redwood
The first one includes salvation. The second one is not referring to salvation. The second one is talking about AFTER being saved.


"Christ's righteousness accomplishes everything" and "It is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith and Works, p.65,66,27; Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.

Could you tell what both statements mean, that is, what is Ellen White saying here?

And what does the second statement mean to you personally?


Am I seeing double?


OK, I see what you mean.

The first question is asking what the statement actually is saying, i.e, objectively.

The second question is asking how you apply it to your life subjectively, or in you personal experience.

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#190628 - 10/04/08 01:09 PM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: John317]
Robert Online   usa


Registered: 07/14/01
Posts: 15764
Loc: Columbia, SC
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: Robert
Originally Posted By: John317
"It is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God." Faith and Works, p.65,66,27; Testimonies to Ministers, p.92.


He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says, “Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” [Ellen White]

Why would Ellen White demand OC terms?

Rob


Is it possible you are misunderstanding either Ellen White or the Bible on this point?


Well explain it....Ending with a question is not an answer. Let me give you her quotes:

Complete obedience is the only condition that meets the requirement of the law. “God is not a man, that He should lie.” God’s law is the rule of His government. He says, “This do, and thou shalt live.” But to the disobedient He says,“Cursed is every one that continueth not in all things written in the book of the law to do them.” “The soul that sinneth, it shall die.” God has given the promise that those who obey His law will be rewarded, not only in the present life, but in the life to come.

The terms of the "old covenant" were, Obey and live: "If a man do, he shall even live in them" (Eze. 20:11; Lev. 18:5); but "cursed be he that confirmeth not all the words of this law to do them." Deut. 27:26. [RH, 10-17-1907]


Do you see the contradiction?

Rob
_________________________
"We preach Christ crucified, to Jews a stumbling block, and to Gentiles foolishness"

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#191375 - 10/07/08 09:43 PM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: John317]
skyblue888 Online   content


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 477
Loc: Canada
to all:

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Christ." "We are to be transformed through the merits of Christ." Faith and Works, p.107; Our Father Cares, p.143. Thus "Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Our Father Cares, p.122.

"The sinner must ever look toward Calvary and with the simple faith of a little child rest in the merits of Christ, accept His righteousness, and believe in His mercy." Evangelism, p.185.

"Unless he makes it his life business to behold the uplifted Saviour and to accept His merits which it is his privilege to claim, the sinner can no more be saved than Peter could walk upon the water unless he kept his eyes fixed steadily upon Jesus." Testimonies to Ministers, p.93.

"There is salvation for you but only through the merits of Jesus Christ. The grace of the Holy Spirit has been offered to you again and again." Testimonies to Ministers, p.97.

The works of true obedience that the grace of the Holy Spirit enables us to do DO NOT play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit. God will reward the good works that His grace enables us to do but in and of themselves these works have no merit toward our salvation.

Anyone who clings to the idea that "good works" have any merit to earn our salvation need to take the following statement very seriously:

"If you would gather everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason." Faith and Works, p.24.

There is this statement found in Bible Commentary, Vol.5, p.1122, which gives us the whole counsel of God on the matter of faith, works, and merits. Here it is:

"In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favour, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. However we are accepted through CHRIST’S MERITS ALONE; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the MERITS of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. These works, in and of themselves, have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures."

"Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; IT IS ONLY THE MERITS OF CHRIST THAT WILL AVAIL IN OUR BEHALF." Faith and Works, p.48.

The two statements above contain “the whole counsel of God.” Acts 20:27. It must be read again and again until these precious truths are assimilated. The statements contain elements of vital truths which are very illuminating in their influence and saving in their power! As we read these statements, we must not forget to pray that God will surround us with a canopy of angels for this is the precious light the enemy is working against ALL THE TIME!

sky

www.hidden-treasures.ca


Edited by skyblue888 (10/07/08 09:57 PM)
_________________________
"Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Our Father Cares, p.122.

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#191380 - 10/07/08 10:47 PM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: skyblue888]
John317 Moderator Online   content


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 10830
Loc: CA
Originally Posted By: skyblue888
to all:

"The sinner is justified through the merits of Christ." "We are to be transformed through the merits of Christ." Faith and Works, p.107; Our Father Cares, p.143. Thus "Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Our Father Cares, p.122.

The works of true obedience that the grace of the Holy Spirit enables us to do DO NOT play a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit. God will reward the good works that His grace enables us to do but in and of themselves these works have no merit toward our salvation.

Anyone who clings to the idea that "good works" have any merit to earn our salvation need to take the following statement very seriously:

"If you would gather everything that is good and holy and noble and lovely in man and then present the subject to the angels of God as acting a part in the salvation of the soul or in merit, the proposition would be rejected as treason." Faith and Works, p.24.

There is this statement found in Bible Commentary, Vol.5, p.1122, which gives us the whole counsel of God on the matter of faith, works, and merits. Here it is:

"In His divine arrangement, through His unmerited favour, the Lord has ordained that good works shall be rewarded. However we are accepted through CHRIST’S MERITS ALONE; and the acts of mercy, the deeds of charity, which we perform, are the fruits of faith; and they become a blessing to us; for men are to be rewarded according to their works. It is the fragrance of the MERITS of Christ that makes our good works acceptable to God, and it is grace that enables us to do the works for which He rewards us. These works, in and of themselves, have no merit. When we have done all that is possible for us to do, we are to count ourselves as unprofitable servants. Luke 17:10. We deserve no thanks from God. We have only done what it was our duty to do, and our works could not have been performed in the strength of our own sinful natures."

"Works without faith are dead, and faith without works is dead. Works will never save us; IT IS ONLY THE MERITS OF CHRIST THAT WILL AVAIL IN OUR BEHALF." Faith and Works, p.48.


I am not arguing that good works earn justification. I am arguing that people cannot be saved if they don't completely turn to Jesus Christ, repent of their sins and depart from iniquity. In other words, I cannot be saved if I simply say I believe in Christ and then go on in my life the same as I was before. That is not salvation. True justification will effect my life. Truly justified people will not be continuing to live in sin.

The main points I am making are that

1) Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts.... By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness.

2) The Commandments of God have not been changed, nor can they ever be changed. There are many who claim that by the death of Christ the law was abrogated; but in this they contradict Christ's own words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. . . . Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matt. 5:17, 18. It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. Could the law have been changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died. By His life on earth He honored the law of God. By His death He established it. He gave His life as a sacrifice, not to destroy God's law, not to create a lower standard, but that justice might be maintained, that the law might be shown to be immutable, that it might stand fast forever.

Do you see any contradiction between what you have said above and the following quote from COL 312-316?

Quote:
Christ was obedient to every requirement of the law. He said of Himself, "I delight to do Thy will, O My God; yea, Thy law is within My heart." Ps. 40:8. When on earth, He said to His disciples, "I have kept My Father's commandments." John 15:10. By His perfect obedience He has made it possible for every human being to obey God's commandments. When we submit ourselves to Christ, the heart is united with His heart, the will is merged in His will, the mind becomes one with His mind, the thoughts are brought into captivity to Him; we live His life. This is what it means to be clothed with the garment of His righteousness. Then as the Lord looks upon us He sees, not the fig-leaf garment, not the nakedness and deformity of sin, but His own robe of righteousness, which is perfect obedience to the law of Jehovah.
The guests at the marriage feast were inspected by the king. Only those were accepted who had obeyed his requirements and put on the wedding garment. So it is with the guests at the gospel feast. All must pass the scrutiny of the great King, and only those are received who have put on the robe of Christ's righteousness.

Righteousness is right doing, and it is by their deeds that all will be judged. Our characters are revealed by what we do. The works show whether the faith is genuine.

It is not enough for us to believe that Jesus is not an impostor, and that the religion of the Bible is no cunningly devised fable. We may believe that the name of Jesus is the only name under heaven whereby man may be saved, and yet we may not through faith make Him our personal Saviour. It is not enough to believe the theory of truth. It is not enough to make a profession of faith in Christ and have our names registered on the church roll. "He that keepeth His commandments dwelleth in Him, and He in him. And hereby we know that He abideth in us, by the Spirit which He hath given us." "Hereby we do know that we know Him if we keep His commandments." 1 John 3:24; 2:3. This is the genuine evidence of conversion. Whatever our profession, it amounts to nothing unless Christ is revealed in works of righteousness. The truth is to be planted in the heart. It is to control the mind and regulate the affections. The whole character must be stamped with the divine utterances. Every jot and tittle of the word of God is to be brought into the daily practice.

He who becomes a partaker of the divine nature will be in harmony with God's great standard of righteousness, His holy law. This is the rule by which God measures the actions of men. This will be the test of character in the judgment.

There are many who claim that by the death of Christ the law was abrogated; but in this they contradict Christ's own words, "Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. . . . Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law." Matt. 5:17, 18. It was to atone for man's transgression of the law that Christ laid down His life. Could the law have been changed or set aside, then Christ need not have died. By His life on earth He honored the law of God. By His death He established it. He gave His life as a sacrifice, not to destroy God's law, not to create a lower standard, but that justice might be maintained, that the law might be shown to be immutable, that it might stand fast forever.

Satan had claimed that it was impossible for man to obey God's commandments; and in our own strength it is true that we cannot obey them. But Christ came in the form of humanity, and by His perfect obedience He proved that humanity and divinity combined can obey every one of God's precepts.

"As many as received Him, to them gave He power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on His name." John 1:12. This power is not in the human agent. It is the power of God. When a soul receives Christ, he receives power to live the life of Christ. God requires perfection of His children. His law is a transcript of His own character, and it is the standard of all character. This infinite standard is presented to all that there may be no mistake in regard to the kind of people whom God will have to compose His kingdom. The life of Christ on earth was a perfect expression of God's law, and when those who claim to be children of God become Christlike in character, they will be obedient to God's commandments. Then the Lord can trust them to be of the number who shall compose the family of heaven. Clothed in the glorious apparel of Christ's righteousness, they have a place at the King's feast. They have a right to join the blood-washed throng.

The man who came to the feast without a wedding garment represents the condition of many in our world today. They profess to be Christians, and lay claim to the blessings and privileges of the gospel; yet they feel no need of a transformation of character. They have never felt true repentance for sin. They do not realize their need of Christ or exercise faith in Him. They have not overcome their hereditary or cultivated tendencies to wrongdoing. Yet they think that they are good enough in themselves, and they rest upon their own merits instead of trusting in Christ. Hearers of the word, they come to the banquet, but they have not put on the robe of Christ's righteousness.

Many who call themselves Christians are mere human moralists. They have refused the gift which alone could enable them to honor Christ by representing Him to the world. The work of the Holy Spirit is to them a strange work. They are not doers of the world. The heavenly principles that distinguish those who are one with Christ from those who are one with the world have become almost indistinguishable. The professed followers of Christ are no longer a separate and peculiar people. The line of demarcation is indistinct. The people are subordinating themselves to the world, to its practices, its customs, its selfishness. The church has gone over to the world in transgression of the law, when the world should have come over to the church in obedience to the law. Daily the church is being converted to the world.

All these expect to be saved by Christ's death, while they refuse to live His self-sacrificing life. They extol the riches of free grace, and attempt to cover themselves with an appearance of righteousness, hoping to screen their defects of character; but their efforts will be of no avail in the day of God.

The righteousness of Christ will not cover one cherished sin.
A man may be a law-breaker in heart; yet if he commits no outward act of transgression, he may be regarded by the world as possessing great integrity. But God's law looks into the secrets of the heart. Every act is judged by the motives that prompt it. Only that which is in accord with the principles of God's law will stand in the judgment.


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#191404 - 10/08/08 01:40 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: John317]
Redwood Online   content
Swiss n Swedish American

Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 9833
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
I don't know where to begin. But in order to be brief in my objections ... I will just say that I totally disagree with this one gem that I picked out from the above post of yours.

Quote:
I am arguing that people cannot be saved if they don't completely turn to Jesus Christ, repent of their sins and depart from iniquity.
_________________________
Another one of Woodies Goodies
Love WON Another.
Lord, make me the person my dog thinks I am.

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#191415 - 10/08/08 02:33 AM Re: not one thread of human devising in it [Re: Redwood]
skyblue888 Online   content


Registered: 03/16/07
Posts: 477
Loc: Canada
John, you and I or the other person will not be saved because of having turned to Christ or because we repented or whatever it might be that we did. Even the works that the Holy Spirit does in and through us are accepted only through the merits of Christ.

"The righteousness of Christ accomplishes everything" (F.W.27) and "We are accepted only through the merits of Christ." (5 B.C.1122) Obedience is not the ground of our salvation but the fruit of faith. "Good works will never save us." F.W.48.

Whether it is imputed or imparted righteousness, both are the gift of God through faith in the merits of Christ. "The only faith that will benefit us is that which embraces Christ as a personal Saviour: which appropriates His merits to ourselves." Desire of Ages, p.347.

Why do we want to continue to split the theological hair? As a people, we have been doing that for way too long and what has been the result? More confusion.

"The matter of salvation is just as simple as ABC. But we don't understand it." Faith and Works, p.64.

"The merits of Christ's sacrifice are sufficient to present to the Father in our behalf." Steps to Christ, p.36.

What Mrs. White is saying here is that in order to obtain the Holy Spirit, the gift that brings all the other blessings in its train, we need only to plead the merits of Christ.

"Present your case before God pleading the merits of the blood shed for you upon Calvary's cross." Faith and Works, p.106.

"Looking unto Jesus and trusting in His merits, we appropriate the blessings of light and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit." Testimonies, Vol.5, p.744.

Filled with the Holy Spirit we have all the blessings of the covenant of grace: pardon and peace and everlasting righteousness which is made manifest in obedience to all the commandments of God.

Here is the catch though: "We must daily apply to the merits of Christ that we may become vessels fit for the Master's use." Faith and Works, p.86.

Since this is so, what need is there to debate the matter any longer?

sky

"Lord, I have no merit or goodness within whereby I may claim salvation, but I present before You the all-sufficient merits of the spotless Lamb of God. This is my only plea."

www.hidden-treasures.ca


Edited by skyblue888 (10/08/08 02:43 AM)
_________________________
"Through the merits of Christ we may find the approval of God." Our Father Cares, p.122.

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