Good Quote Sky. I would make sure we know what we are talking about here also. This means ANY good works ... even those that are from God. For our works from God in our lives will never be enough to save us. Only the works that Jesus did on this earth are enough. We must have His works covering us . That is what saves us.

"The works that come into our lives from Christ are as filthy rags towards our Salvation."

For ONLY those works that completely COVER our sins are any good towards our salvation.

We are saved because of God's grace-- his unmerited favor. But clearly our faith in Him is the empty hand that reaches out and accepts the gift. Your words here make it sound as if faith and trust are irrelevant. No one can be saved apart from genuine faith in Christ.

But no one is justified by works of the law, and no one is arguing that we are.

What is the difference between those who are lost and those who are saved?

What makes the difference, since God loves all people and His mercy and salvation is open to all?

How does the Bible say a man is saved? Doesn't Eph 2: 8 establish the necessity of faith in Christ as the only means of being made right with God? How else, besides personal faith in Christ, do we receive the gift of justification and salvation?


Could I expect to be saved without giving my heart to Jesus Christ and repenting of my sins?

Study the following clear quotes from the Spirit of prophecy:

"While we are to be in harmony with God's law, we are not saved by the works of the law, YET WE CANNOT BE SAVED WITHOUT OBEDIENCE. The law is the standard by which character is measured. But we cannot possibly keep the commandments of God without the regenerating grace of Christ. Jesus alone can cleanse us from all sin. He does not save us by law, neither will He save us in disobedience to law." F. W. 95, 96

"The doctrine of sanctification advocated by many is full of deception, because it is flattering to the natural heart; but THE KINDEST THING THAT CAN BE PREACHED TO THE SINNER IS THE TRUTH OF THE BINDING CLAIMS OF THE LAW OF GOD. Faith and works must go hand in hand; for faith without works is dead, being alone." F.W. 96, 97.

"The condescension and agony of God's dear Son were not endured to purchase for man liberty to transgress the Father's law and yet sit down with Christ in His throne.

"While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God." F.W. 52

Red, is the following statement in line with your position or thinking?

"The religious services, the prayers, the praise, the penitent confession of sin ascend from true believers as incense to the heavenly sanctuary, but passing through the corrupt channels of humanity, they are so defiled that unless purified by blood, they can never be of value to God. They ascend not in spotless purity, and unless the Intercessor, who is at God's right hand, presents and purifies all by His righteousness, it is not acceptable to God. All incense from earthly tabernacles must be moist with the cleansing drops of the blood of Christ. He holds before God the censor of His own merits, in which there is no taint of earthly corruption. He gathers into this censor the prayers, the praise, and the confessions of His people, and with these He puts His own spotless righteousness. Then, perfumed with the merits of Christ's propitiation, the incense comes up before God wholly and entirely acceptable. Then gracious answers are returned. Oh, that all may see that everything in obedience, in penitence, in praise and thanksgiving, must be placed upon the glowing fire of the righteousness of Christ. The fragrance of this righteousness ascends like a cloud around the mercy seat." Selected Messages, Vol.1, p.344.


John317,

"While true faith trusts wholly in Christ for salvation, it will lead to perfect conformity to the law of God." F.W. 52

I totally agree with this statement but the redeemed, when standing at the gates of the New Jerusalem, will not trust in their obedience to the law or their good works wrought through the grace of God for their right to enter through the gates. If the angels were to ask them what they believe gives them the right to enter the City, they would say, We have no right to enter except the merits of Jesus Christ. And yet they will be rewarded for the good works that the grace of God will have wrought through them and again these works are accepted only through the all-sufficient merits of Christ.

sky

Of course no one trusts to their good works for entrance into the New Jerusalem.

That having been said, we cannot deny such texts as 1 Cor. 6: 9-11. Saying that our lives have nothing to do with salvation leads to a great deal of misunderstanding. Ellen White is very clear, and so is the Bible, that our lives do have something to do with salvation. Just as Abraham's obedience to God's call to leave Haran had something to do with His being the Father of the faithful. Would Abraham have been the Father of the faithful if he had refused to obey? Obviously not. It was his obedience that demonstrated the genuineness of his faith. But no one is saying we earn anything by our faith or by our obedience.

It is the same if I throw a rope to a drowning man, and he grabs the rope-- his grabbing the rope does not earn him any merits. But if he does not grab the rope, he clearly will not be saved.

"The minister tells his hearers that they cannot keep the law of God." (There are those in the Forum who teach the same thing, that no one can keep the law of God, even with the Holy Spirit in our lives.)

"The minister tells his hearers that they cannot keep the law of God. 'It is not binding upon man in our day,' he says. 'You must believe in Christ; He will save you; only believe.' Thus he teaches them to make feeling their criterion and gives them no intelligent faith. That minister may profess to be very sincere, but he is seeking to quiet the troubled conscience with a false hope." F. W. 32.

If you are following a few of the threads, you've seen that there is a disagreement over whether the commandments of God can be changed. A few are arguing that the Ten Commandments can be changed, specifically the Sabbath commandment. Also it is being said that Seventh-day Adventists are legalistic to preach the keeping of the Sabbath on the basis that the Sabbath as a memorial of God's creation of the world. It is claimed that the Sabbath is only to be preached in the future as a sign of righteousness by faith, and that any teaching of it at this time-- before the restoration of the gospel-- is harmful and legalistic.

Do you believe that the commandments of God-- i.e., the Ten Commandments-- can be changed?

Has the Sabbath commandment been changed, and does it matter whether anyone keeps it or not, today?

Do you believe that God's will is for Seventh-day Adventists to teach people about the weekly Sabbath now or should we wait until some time in the future to do this?

John317, I haven't had the time to read the whole thread. But for one to think that the Sabbath can be changed, though the Papacy thought it could be, is like saying that God changes, but we know what the Bible says about God and the law of His government. God is the same, yesterday, today, and forever and His law is as unchangeable as He is. Psalm 119 makes that very clear.

For those who rest in the merits of Christ for their acceptance with God and for the gift of the Holy Spirit. "every command is a promise of its own fulfilment." M.B.76. Sabbath keeping is present truth, especially since 1844 and as we near the end of time it will become the separating wall between those who serve God and those who serve Him not.

The moment we cherish the idea that our obedience through the grace of God could merit us our salvation, we are on dangerous grounds. But I'm glad we see eye to eye on that. Praise the Lord!

"John, while in vision, saw a company clothed in white robes. They were seen in the temple of God. This will be the result of all who will lay hold of the merits of Christ and wash their robes in His blood." Our Father Cares, p.339.

"Take hold by faith of the merits of Christ and the soul-cleansing blood will be applied." Faith and Works, p.96.

sky

I don't know if you guys understand the implication above, but Ellen is saying that even our obedience must be placed on the glowing fire of Christ' righteousness! That's because we are not fully free of selfishness.

Proof:

"We may have flattered ourselves, as did Nicodemus, that our life has been upright, that our moral character is correct, and think that we need not humble the heart before God, like the common sinner: but when the light from Christ shines into our souls, we shall see how impure we are; we shall discern the selfishness of motive, the enmity against God, that has defiled every act of life." [SC 28,29]

So what defiles even our good works is the love of self. I didn't say all our good works....Nevertheless, even our fruit can be imperfect is Ellen's point.

Thanks Rob. Great Quote from EGW.

Not if it's tied to the gospel. But then the question is, which gospel? Will the real gospel please stand up!




The day hasn't been changed, but what it symbolizes is dynamic! It is changing....At creation it stood for a perfect & sinless creation. At the cross it became a symbol of Christ's perfect redemption in Himself. This will be better understood as the gospel is restored. In the future the Sabbath will symbolize a perfect re-creation! So the Sabbath is always God's 7th day, but what it symbolizes is changing. Failure to realize this leads to legalism.

Rob. I am honestly trying hard to understand this. Could you go further for me in my ignorance and slow mind ... and explain how it leads to legalism.

But I don't think that her quote is written to discourage us that we can never have victory over problems in our lives. I think Christ came to give us life and to give it more abundantly, not to just say "stay the way you are and that is ok with me." He said "go and sin no more". Now that doesn't mean we will never fall or never make a mistake but the good news of the gospel is that Christ can heal broken marriages, can make the drunkard a sober man etc. Why wouldn't this be good news?