When is Sanctification completed? It's not completed at the end of our life. It is completed at the second coming. This is when we are changed.





And finally .... from Seventh-Day Adventists Believe p. 138



And page 145



Therefore ....

I have to disagree that Sanctification is the work of a lifetime. It is the work of well beyond our lifetime. It is the work of when we SEE HIS FACE. Then is when our Sanctification will be complete and we will be fit for heaven where sin can never again come to it's ugly head.

It's quite true, of course, that our sanctification will be completed at the Second Coming and that "the ultimate, all-comprehensive transformation of our lives into the image of God will take place at the second Advent."

It also true there will be no change in our characters at the resurrection. God will not make our characters different from the way they are when we go into the grave.

Sanctification is the work of a lifetime in the sense that it never ends in this lifetime but only when Christ returns.

Would you agree with that?

Really? What about that thief that died on the cross? When did he have time to develop a character fit for heaven?

Look, it's rather simple....At the resurrection we receive the life of Christ. Just as we came from 1st Adam as sinners, so from the 2nd Adam (Christ) we will be made righteous. "The law of sin and death" will never be part of our experience again. We will have a glorified humanity free from indwelling sin. We will be fully restored in the likeness and image of God.

Rob

Ellen White writes is several places, including Adventist Home, that there will be no change in people's characters between the time of death and the resurrection.

The thief you mentioned went into the grave with a totally surrendered mind and heart, and therefore he will come up with the same. God takes into account those who did not live long after their conversion.

She also wrote the following:

Our personal identity is preserved in the resurrection, though not the
same particles of matter or material substance as went into the grave.
The wondrous works of God are a mystery to man. The spirit, the
character of man, is returned to God, there to be preserved. In the
resurrection every man will have his own character. God in His own time
will call forth the dead, giving again the breath of life, and bidding
the dry bones live. The same form will come forth, but it will be free
from disease and every defect. It lives again bearing the same
individuality of features, so that friend will recognize friend. There
is no law of God in nature which shows that God gives back the same
identical particles of matter which composed the body before death. God
shall give the righteous dead a body that will please Him.

Paul illustrates this subject by the kernel of grain sown in the field.
The planted kernel decays, but there comes forth a new kernel. The
natural substance in the grain that decays is never raised as before,
but God giveth it a body as it hath pleased Him. A much finer material
will compose the human body, for it is a new creation, a new birth. It
is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body.

He [the believer] may die, as Christ died, but the life of the Savior is
in him. His life is hid with Christ in God. "I am come that they might
have life," Jesus said, "and that they might have it more abundantly."
He carries on the great process by which believers are made one with Him
in this present life, to be one with Him throughout all eternity. . . .

At the last day He will raise them as a part of Himself. . . . Christ
became one with us in order that we might become one with Him in
divinity.

>From Maranatha - Page 301

That's an assumption....



Now wait just a minute....You said that man takes his character with him to heaven. God's taking one's short lived life after conversion into consideration doesn't change the fact that he is a babe in Christ and therefore his character is heavily flawed.

The reality is that this cannot be. No iniquity will enter heaven. All will be perfectly reflecting God. Our glorified lives will measure with His.

Then sin will enter heaven. Also, Paul (not Ellen) says, "We will be changed...in a moment...in the twinkling of an eye...."

I must take Paul over Ellen. To do otherwise is to become part of a cult. No thanks!

PS: Besides, Ellen clearly stated she didn't have all light. She didn't claim infallibility. So I'll give her a break, but since you set her up as the measuring stick of truth I must place you in the category of a cult.

Rob

Rob. It depends upon which Ellen White you believe in:

Do you see a contradiction in those quotes?

So after the second coming, sanctification is COMPLETED and there will be no more growth in becoming more like God?

Gerry

Totally in line with Paul....Totally!

Right now, even though we are maturing (and that's important), we are "imperfect". Only when we are "freed from the taint of sin" [fallen, human nature] will we have "a life with MEASURES with the life of God."

Again, no imperfection of any kind will enter heaven. None! No faulty characters...none!

Rob

Let the thought enter your mind that what you see as a contradiction between two people whom Jack Sequeira believes are true prophets of God, is due to your misunderstanding.

The Bible also seems to have contradictions, doesn't it? Yet it is not the Bible that's contradicting itself. It is that we have a misunderstanding and misinformation.

So we work at trying to understand the texts better. Do the same with Ellen White.

If we assume right from the get-go that something contradicts Paul, we aren't likely to try to find a solution but will just jettison what we are convinced is a true contradiction. That could be a big loss.

Personally I don't see a contradiction between what Paul says in 1 Cor. 15 and what Ellen White wrote in Adventist Home.

Describe what you believe is the contradiction there.

Good Point Rob.

The contradictions are in Ellen White and her own words. But this is expected from humans. (Some don't count EGW as human).

EGW and all of us grow in our understandings. We study and how ourselves approved unto God.

I am glad that she changed her mind.

What do you make of the sentence--

Notice she is talking about sinful traits of character that we CHERISH. That means those you want to keep and cultivate, instead of giving over and surrendering to Christ. They are sins you are not repenting of and confessing. We should be resisting those and overcoming them, not cherishing and cultivating them.

Not in the realm of sin. No iniquity (i.e., a u-turn agape) will be in heaven. None! That's why God never allowed Lucifer to develop his love of self in heaven. Here's how heaven will be:


In heaven none will think of self, nor seek their own pleasure but all, from pure, genuine love [agape], will seek the happiness of the heavenly beings around them. [2T 132]

Let's say the character defect is wanting to be the center of attention. Many have this problem...many! The question is, "will they still have this defect after the 1st resurrection?"

No!

Otherwise, again, imperfection enters into heaven.

Look, EGW didn't know it all. Just deal with that.

I am asking you to point out the words you believe are contradictory.

Redwood,

I'd leave it alone....John will never believe Ellen White is anything short of infallible! Whatever you say he will try to refute.

And you want me and others to think you or Jack Sequeira do know it all?!

Whose quotes does Jack put in all his books and whose quotes fill pages of his books-- yours, Jack's, or the Spirit of prophecy's?

Jack calls her a prophet of God. If she was a prophet of God, you don't just jettison what she wrote because you don't like it.

And again, did Paul or John or Isaiah or Moses know it all?

Or is it because you are running short of answers? There is no contradiction in those words, because if there was, I am sure it would be pointed out quickly.

What did Ellen White herself say about those who only quote her when she can be used to support a favorite viewpoint?

You evidently see nothing wrong with Jack's quoting tons of Ellen White statements, so why not deal seriously with what she wrote on the subject of the resurrection?

Temper...temper!

No, but he has more light that EGW....



Those "other quotes" that all the legalists either don't know about or ignores.



Maybe he does...I don't know, but you know what? I can disagree with him if I see fit to. Why waste so much time arguing over Ellen White? Go to the Bible. That's what she would have told you.

You make a idol of her, John. Really!



Maybe Paul.... :)

But it doesn't matter. DO you know why? They are apart of the Bible. Ellen White isn't. Case settled.

Here's some advice: Back off on your push and spin of Ellen White or folks who might listen to you will shut down. Why? They will see you as part of a cult.

Rob

Because it's a moot point. The Bible disagrees!

Show how it disagrees. What you have given here is merely a conclusion that it disagrees.

No temper. Just pointing out how foolish it sounds to ask people to believe you and Jack over the Spirit of prophecy, especially considering the church's teaching, which I agree with:

18. The Gift of Prophecy:
One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen. G. White . As the Lord's messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29; Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)



Speaks for itself. Even Jack knows that's not true. I notice he doesn't quote himself or talk of himself in any way except as an ordinary student of the word. He doesn't consider himself any more of an authority than you are.

I am not saying he doesn't know anything or that he is not a good speaker on the Bible. I am just saying it is dangerous and foolish to think of an ordinary person as someone you will listen to above a prophet of God. Even Jack would not want you to believe that way.

I think Jack has much light. Perhaps he is able to better point out truth in some areas than EGW. I believe EGW was a prophet. She had some good messages from God. But as we have discovered ... not ALL of her messages were from God.

I will again ask you the question John that you continue to ignore ...

How do we determine which of her messages were just her own opinion and thus open to error ... and which messages were inspired from God? Are the messages from God prefaced with an "I was shown" Or "I was in vision" ??

What was it John?

There, that's the bottom line! Go to your Bible!



I said that, not Jack.

You know...the more you spin Ellen White the more you push folks away who might join the church. Who wants to join a cult? Not me. And that's exactly what YOU traditional, historic legalists are doing. In fact worse:

“You travel over land and sea to win a single convert, and when he becomes one, you make him twice as much a son of hell as you are."

Examples?



I have answered this question before, but you are apparently not reading.

All of the messages that she wrote for publication and all the messages she intended as testimonies either to the church, individuals, or to the world in general, are to be accepted. These include the Conflict Series, Steps To Christ, all of the Testimonies for the Church, etc.

What she wrote for the church was never merely her private opinion.

And no, she does not need to say, "I was shown," or "I was in vision," in order for the message to be from God.

Read the Introduction to GC and the first 45 pages or so of 1 SM.

I know you said it. And Jack would neither say nor think it nor would he agree with you on that point. He knows that's not true.

1 Cor 15:51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [remain dead], but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.


Mortality is linked with sin and immortality is linked with perfection.

Col 1:13 For He [God] delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

"In Christ" our glorified, sinless humanity has already been transferred to heaven "in Christ". We receive this sinless, perfect life at the resurrection.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus.

Right now, as I write, I have a new humanity "in Christ". Is Christ sinless? Yes. Then that glorified humanity is sinless. I am complete "in Christ" by faith.

At the resurrection I will receive this life from within Him - a life that measures with the life of God. I will receive a sinless, spotless humanity from Him. Then I will be fully in His image after His likeness. No imperfection of any kind. Otherwise, you must teach that Christ is imperfect.

Anything outside this truth must be regarded as pure heresy!

Rob

Sure, but it's up to God, isn't it? If God is using Him in a mighty way then either join or get out of the way. This man has light from God....

Thanks Rob. Well put.
The Devil is working hard to make SDAs think that they have something to DO that can add to their saved status. They are workin hard to claim some part in the salvation status.
If only we could just ACCEPT the GIFT.

"We [EGW includes herself] have only the glimmerings of the rays of the light [truth] that is yet to come to us."

Who is to say that Jack is not part of that light? He understands Paul like no other. He brings out Paul as if he was alive today.

Adventists either hate Jack or love him. There's no in between! And I'll tell you, the the majority of Sunday Christians love him!

Invite him to your church, John. He'll come, only let me give you a bit of advice: Don't challenge him or you'll wind up with foot in mouth.

FYI,

Rob

Rob. We've already seen plenty of that 'foot in mouth' disease here haven't we?

Just remember that God's church, in the days of Christ, rejected Him. Why? Self-righteousness! The sinners flocked around Him....They loved Christ.

The way I understand it...the majority of SDA will do the same. It's called the shaking. The shaking is caused by the preaching of justification by faith (what Ellen White terms the 3rd angel's message). Look it up. Many will rise up against it and this will cause a shaking. Many in the SDA church really belong to Babylon.

Rob

Yes, I think so....

Bottom line:

"As real spiritual life declines, it has ever been the tendency to cease to advance in the knowledge of the truth. Men rest satisfied with the light already received from God's word, and discourage any further investigation of the Scriptures. They become conservative, and seek to avoid discussion.

The fact that there is no controversy or agitation among God’s people, should not be regarded as conclusive evidence that they are holding fast to sound doctrine. There is reason to fear that they may not be clearly discriminating between truth and error. When no new questions are started by investigation of the Scriptures, when no difference of opinion arises which will set men to searching the Bible for themselves, to make sure that they have the truth, there will be many now, as in ancient times, who will hold to tradition, and worship they know not what.

IMHO, I think that's true.

Cool. I think this is so important. Ellen White did have much good to say and I think this was one of them.

As a prophet ... I think she had much insight into the issues of the future.

Do you believe what the Spirit of prophecy teaches on this subject?

For example, Steps To Christ?

I do. But I don't believe in your interpretation of what the SOP teaches on this subject.

Well, based on what I have seen so far, I don't think you understand what I say. I think you have too much emotionally involved to be listening to what I am saying.

Oh I agree the emotion is there. I hate what you stand for. But I have hated it from the beginning. I see the emotion in you also. From the beginning you got so frustrated that you called me names (D). Then you kicked me out for no reason. So, yes. There are emotions. But even when you put the emotions aside ... there are huge disagreements.

The moment I arrived ... I got attacked for my belief in tolerance. I happen to believe that you are saved despite your legalism. God works with us at different paces. I would apply the same thoughts for Sunday keepers. They are sincere. They love God. Just like you John317. It just so happens that we all disagree on the teachings. But we are not saved by our knowledge like I so often say. Those saved will have all kinds of different beliefs. The learning will happen in heaven. In the meantime ... we need to have TOLERANCE for all with all the beliefs they might have.

It is my desire that we share our differences but accept each person as a saved child of God. (Even Rob and Jack). Is that possible? Can we show respect? Can we act like Christians? That is my desire. I think we can agree to disagree respectfully. Can we turn over a new leaf?

I will look forward to your reply.