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#192016 - 10/10/08 06:46 PM Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 139
Normally, you must be a subscriber to access content at Adventist Today, but during the month of October they've opened up the site to everyone.

So now's your chance to read Ervin Taylor's four-part (so far) series called "Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma."
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So love is greater than knowledge; how could I have forgotten? Annie Dillard, Holy the Firm | Wishing Doesn't Make It So

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#192074 - 10/11/08 12:54 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: Vera]
Bravus Moderator Online   content
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He does a very nice job of laying out the issues. Well worth a read.
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#192114 - 10/11/08 03:17 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: Bravus]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 683
Norm Smith was particularly insightful in his remarks to Ervin...

Quote:

I have inquired of geologist friends to identify such a foundations text. In effect asking where is a good Geology 401 text. Many books have been suggested but upon examination they simply assume the orthodox party line rather than present a defense of it.


Norm has put his finger on the heart of the junk-science fueling evolutionism.

in Christ,

Bob


Edited by BobRyan (10/11/08 03:17 AM)

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#192128 - 10/11/08 03:30 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: BobRyan]
Bravus Moderator Online   content
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On the contrary, physics textbooks don't mount a 'defense' of gravity either: what textbooks do with settled science is explain it.
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#192145 - 10/11/08 03:40 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: Bravus]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 683
On the contrary the entire motivation for General Relativity came about by "re-examining" the argument for Gravity set up by Newton.

The more detail -- the closer they look the more clearly they saw a gap between reality and what Newton was arguing and the more clearly they saw a need to come up with a more accurate view of the force.

What is instructive is that even though they found the need to improve their understanding -- the same inverse square law at the macro level mathematically demonstrated by Newton -- STILL works! Good science "is funny that way".

By contrast junk-science is doomed to come up with confirmed fraud after confirmed multi-decades-long fraud. And that is because Junk-science "is funny that way"!

Physics can not tolerate the same level of junk-science frauds and story telling that is so central to Darwinism.

in Christ,

Bob


Edited by BobRyan (10/11/08 04:13 AM)

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#192174 - 10/11/08 04:12 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: BobRyan]
Bravus Moderator Online   content
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You've missed the point (again).

Of course all scientific theories remain open to challenge and question.

The point is that textbooks do not generally 'defend' the science they teach, they describe it. The point about General Relativity is true but not at all relevant to the discussion.

The point is that it is unsurprising that geology textbooks do not 'defend' the age of the earth, just describe it and the relevant evidence. What would be suprising is if they *did* defend it.
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#192211 - 10/11/08 05:00 AM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: Bravus]
BobRyan Offline


Registered: 09/26/08
Posts: 683
Originally Posted By: Bravus
You've missed the point (again).

Of course all scientific theories remain open to challenge and question.

The point is that textbooks do not generally 'defend' the science they teach, they describe it. The point about General Relativity is true but not at all relevant to the discussion.


How so?

The point Norm raises is that these evolutionists merely assume the salient points of their argument instead of rigorously proving it. You then suggest that this is being done with Physics in the case of Gravity.

I simply point to your error and show that not only are statements about gravity NOT merely "assumed" but even those that have been mathematically confiremd (with the inverse-square law confirmation) are being reviewed in even CLOSER scrutiny to discover problems -- problems whose solution demanded something entirely outside of the box -- like general relativity where Gravity is expected to then warp both space and time.

Quote:
Bravus
The point is that it is unsurprising that geology textbooks do not 'defend' the age of the earth, just describe it and the relevant evidence. What would be suprising is if they *did* defend it.


You needed to read that blog-post 4 and Norm Smith's response.

For ease of reference --
http://www.atoday.com/comment/reply/4345/933


An exerpt --

Quote:

I was with you on the GRI tour of Colorado geology. There, for example, it was suggested that such a foundations text would be "The Geology of Stratigraphic Sequences" by Andrew Miall. Yet again, I dutifully examined this book and found that it also simply assumed that the geologic record is the result of action over deep time. Miall, to his credit is quite candid about the deficiencies of the views he promotes. Actually, I found "Principles of Sequence Stratigraphy" by Octavian Catuneanu to be more informative, yet it too simply assumed deep time. Another book that has been suggested is "The Nature of the Stratigraphical Record" by Derek Ager, with the same result. It simply assumes the deep time scenario. "The Age of the Earth" by Brent Dalrymple although not about stratigraphic correlations, does much better by addressing such questions as whether radioactive decay rates have always been constant. Still his approach is one of unquestioning strict naturalism, of course. "The meaning of Fossils" by Martin Rudwick and "The Map that Changed the World" by Simon Winchester have also been suggested. They are of a somewhat different nature in that they take what I think of as the historical copout. They diligently trace the historical development of geological theories but fail to address a defense of the theories themselves. I have spent long hours perusing a large fraction of the geologic texts in the Colorado School of Mines Library without finding a good Geology 401. I have also read several books on the application of statistical techniques to stratigraphical correlation but have found none that come anywhere close to a reconsideration of the underlying deep time assumption.

It is this repeated situation of finding that the underlying assumptions are considered from only one possible point of view in the conventional literature that leaves some of us less convinced than you are about how overwhelming the evidence really is.



He consistently points to arguments "assumed not proven".

in Christ,

Bob


Edited by BobRyan (10/11/08 05:01 AM)

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#196797 - 10/29/08 03:12 PM Re: Evolution and the Adventist Dilemma [Re: BobRyan]
Vera Online   content


Registered: 05/19/07
Posts: 139
Part 5 is now up.
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So love is greater than knowledge; how could I have forgotten? Annie Dillard, Holy the Firm | Wishing Doesn't Make It So

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