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#23561 - 01/26/05 05:21 AM
Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
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Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4747
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#23562 - 01/28/05 03:52 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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I'm having a lot of difficulty reading this chapter, because it taps directly into some serious personal things for me. Basically in becoming an SDA years ago I got into the whole type & antitype view of Scripture so prevalent in our theology, and this led later to my drawing continual parallels between new types & antitypes -- for example the sort of thing I did with Chapter 2. Well, in my private mythology, I am (or rather, my archetypal identity is) actually the antitype here to this stuff in Chapter 3 so it makes it very hard for me to read this chapter and see the parallels that are centered on Christ. So bear with me. (One of these days I'm going to write a book, and it's going to be called, A Turn on Daddy's Throne ...) ... let's see if I can find something I can comment upon in a fashion all will find relevant ... Ah yes, there is this: Quote:
The principle that man can save himself by his own works lay at the foundation of every heathen religion; it had now become the principle of the Jewish religion. Satan had implanted this principle. Wherever it is held, men have no barrier against sin.
This passage really stood out to me, if not for the first time, for the first time clearly in a long while. Robert on the forum here is fond of quoting it and I never quite grasped what he thought was the "big deal" here. Probably because I never quite agreed with the statement itself. (I didn't care if it was EGW; I disagreed with it.) Not the latter parts but the first part itself, that it was at the foundation of all heathen religions. I saw this as a recasting of other religions in the language and symbolic forms of Judaeo-Christian thought, and thus intrinsically erroneous,
However, my mind is now changed upon this point, and here is why: all religions do, in fact, have at their foundation and heart some concept of spiritual attainment. Man is to attain enlightenment, or Buddha-nature; Magus where he may utter his word, or Ipsissimus where he may dwell beyond it shrouded in mystery. There is gnosis, trance, vision, power to aspire after and unto; awareness, transcendence, resurgence, transmogrification, etc. IN FACT, and indeed we should not miss this fact, Christianity itself can, and frequently is, made into yet another religion having at its foundation the notion that man attains to something through his own effort.
But outside of, and beyond, all these religions, there is an arena where man meets Maker, where Maker alone can make the difference, and does so in the context of relationship and reconciliation initiated entirely by His own efforts, not those of man. And this alone is that narrow way, in the name of Jesus Christ, of Yeshua Ha-Maschiach, whereby we must be saved.
And knowing that, now I know why she (EGW) goes on further to state, "Wherever it [this principle] is held, men have no barrier against sin." For indeed, wherever it is held, men have also no hope whatsoever of salvation, but are left dealing entirely with ourselves and our own devices. And if those could have redeemed, delivered or improved us, they would have well nigh done so by now.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23563 - 01/28/05 04:26 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 11/11/03
Posts: 4747
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Quote:
The bodies of human beings, made for the dwelling place of God, had become the habitation of demons.
I think that perhaps the reason we have no barrier against sin is that we feed the very demons ourselves.
Can't remember when I heard this analogy, but there is a story that tells of the two forces that dwell within each of us. The food we eat, the things we view, listen to and read, all serve one of these two forces. It is a choice we have in which of the two we feed.
In feeding the force of good, we give ourselves a barrier against the force of evil. In feeding the force of evil, we strengthen the evil and starve the good.
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#23565 - 01/28/05 05:01 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
The message of salvation is communicated to men through human agencies. But the Jews had sought to make a monopoly of the truth which is eternal life. They had hoarded the living manna, and it had turned to corruption. The religion which they tried to shut up to themselves became an offense. They robbed God of His glory, and defrauded the world by a counterfeit of the gospel. They had refused to surrender themselves to God for the salvation of the world, and they became agents of Satan for its destruction.
Truer words were never penned -- words that do indeed transcend ...
This is one of those awkward moments where I feel it is truly a shame that the SDA world is not more aware of Aleister Crowley. Not the rumours and notoriety surrounding him but the actual thoughts of the man, as conveyed in his writings. Crowley wrote about something he called the "black brotherhood" (please note that is NOT a racial reference! It is "black" as in "black magick" [i.e. as opposed to "white" magick]). The "black brotherhood" were essentially the occult equivalent of the folks described in this quotation above: they had seen the light, they knew the truth, had the gnosis, were initiated, were accomplished, were attained, and yet instead of sacrificing themselves to the universe they tried to retain their little-"i" egos in the abyss, and thus were doomed. Crowley literally used the phrase "shut up unto themselves" about these "black brothers", calling them "isolates in the abyss" who were fallen from the tree and whose end was only corruption, rot, decay as a result.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23567 - 01/28/05 05:18 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
The deception of sin had reached its height. All the agencies for depraving the souls of men had been put in operation... men had become victims of satanic cruelty. [Christ] looked with compassion upon those who were being corrupted, murdered, and lost. They had chosen a ruler who chained them to his car as captives. Bewildered and deceived, they were moving on in gloomy procession toward eternal ruin... Satanic agencies were incorporated* with men. The bodies of human beings, made for the dwelling place of God, had become the habitation of demons. The senses, the nerves, the passions, the organs of men, were worked by supernatural agencies in the indulgence of the vilest lust. The very stamp of demons was impressed upon the countenances of men. Human faces reflected the expression of the legions of evil with which they were possessed ...
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* - "incorporated" -- in other words, one step down from "incarnated". To be incorporated into something is to be taken or "folded" into one body, one form, with it. The root is "corp" from which we get corpse (body) and corporeal (of the body). This strikes me as ongoing demonic apotheosis (or I guess, rather, ongoing apodiabolosis or apodaimonosis).
--------
When I read this, I just feel like I'm drowning in it. Like drowning in it. Like just totally drowning in it. Breathing it. Smelling it. Tasting it. Unable to find anywhere at all where it is not. Scrambling desperately to a place backward in time when I think I can remember it wasn't so bad, but I can't totally get back there. It's not just me personally, the little human being thing. It's Me, the Earth, World-Soul, Soul of the World. I am drowning in this, I am aching, I am in pain, I groan with centuries of agony to be released; I want My Redeemer to come and liberate Me from this captivity. I am sick and faint and cannot hold on much longer ... come quickly, Lord Jesus! We perish, I and the children Thou hast given Me!
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23568 - 01/28/05 06:47 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
Sin had become a science...
... and so it is today. We have books telling us how to get what we want, how to get rid of people we don't want, how to get our way, how to have more pleasure in everything sensual, how to believe our pleasure is a legitimate cause that needs to come first all the time, etc. etc. ad nauseum. There are detailed instructions on how to worship and multiply mammon, how to justify the pollution of land, air and sea, how to lie without moving your lips, and books by the likes of "ugly hate machine" Ann Coulter. Truly, sin has become a science.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23569 - 01/28/05 08:55 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Registered: 04/05/03
Posts: 2145
Loc: Perth, Western Australia
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Thank you, Nico, for posting this.
Love,
Beryl
_________________________
"Grace is God doing for us, in us and through us that which He requires of us but which is impossible for us to do in or for ourselves."
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#23570 - 01/28/05 03:33 PM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: Vera]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
(page 37)
It was demonstrated before the universe that, apart from God, humanity could not be uplifted. A new element of life and power must be imparted by Him who made the world.
And yet we have the audacity to attempt to reduce this to a "religion" -- a man-made system of beliefs that we control, processes we define, experiences we judge (the worse for ourselves than for our brethren, no less, yet no less dire for them!) Scripture states that sin continues to crucify Christ afresh and put Him to an open shame, yet were this crucifixion, the one wrought from having made a facile religion of Him, to be counted, it would measure, in my humble and earnest opinion, far more afoul.
The experiential reality of knowing and following Christ must not be reduced to a man-made religious system of rules. While we agree that obedience to God, beginning even with the desire for it -- is fruit of the new life, obedience is never the sole component of ANY relationship, divine or human, nor should it be made out to be. It is our obsession with it as if it were that reflects not the divine impress in our lives but the stamp of the sickness of sin and the callousedness of heart it produces in its victims one toward another. Never in ANY love relationship, be it that of spouses, sweethearts, parents and children, sisters and brothers, or friend with friend, is the quality or veracity of that relationship tested and determined solely upon the merits of conformity to the rules set by one party for another to constitute "how to show me love." True, only in the divine relationship is there genuine top-down relation, from the Creator of all toward one of His little creatures, but this is reflected in the parent-child relationship, and even a cursory glance at earthly parent-child relationships demonstrate that those based entirely upon issues of obedience, forsaking other aspects of relatedness, produce the most miserable and sick of offspring.
Moreover, even could it be proven otherwise, as some have attempted to do, and we were to thus begin from the premise that the relationship is, in fact, to focus solely and entirely upon the production of obedience from the heart (and I do not deny this is an important factor; merely that it is a solitary one) -- what says this passage? Does it say this may be accomplished by all the works of man in attempting to measure himself against a written codification of Love-Law and compel or constrain himself to measure up and perform better? WHAT SAITH IT? "...apart from God, humanity could not be uplifted. A new element of life and power must be imparted by Him who made the world." There is NO means ... NONE ... by which humanity may be uplifted from within itself and all its vast resources as a species. Creator alone may avail here. Jesus alone must impart some new element of life and power.
Here we see spoken not only of life-principle itself but of very will; likewise not merely of volition itself but of the very principle of life. The very essence at its foundation or core must be replaced by something imparted by its Creator, else what? ---> ... humanity [will] not be uplifted. Clearly something MORE is indicated here than merely adopting a new religion -- than merely swapping one set of lifestyle rules and practices for another, stepping into a baptismal tank, and giving intellectual assent to the "correct" ways of thinking. NOT that there is anything wrong with those things, but they cannot save us. They cannot uplift humanity. And we must realize this first and foremost, else we will fail to recognize our own very real and desperate need of Christ, and fall prey to the deception charged upon Laodicea:
"You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked." -- Rev. 3:17.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23571 - 01/31/05 02:00 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Public Nuisance
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 2858
Loc: On the outside, looking in
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just tagging on here... Quote:
Outside of the Jewish nation there were men who foretold the appearance of a divine instructor. These men were seeking for truth, and to them the Spirit of Inspiration was imparted. One after another, like stars in the darkened heavens, such teachers had arisen. Their words of prophecy had kindled hope in the hearts of thousands of the Gentile world.
For hundreds of years the Scriptures had been translated into the Greek language, then widely spoken throughout the Roman Empire. The Jews were scattered everywhere, and their expectation of the Messiah's coming was to some extent shared by the Gentiles. Among those whom the Jews styled heathen were men who had a better understanding of the Scripture prophecies concerning the Messiah than had the teachers in Israel. There were some who hoped for His coming as a deliverer from sin. Philosophers endeavored to study into the mystery of the Hebrew economy. But the bigotry of the Jews hindered the spread of the light. Intent on maintaining the separation between themselves and other nations, they were unwilling to impart the knowledge they still possessed concerning the symbolic service.
I have been doing a lot of study recently about the history and geography of various religions, and the above statement jumped out at me.
I wonder if the Wise Men who came from the East were Zoroastrians - and I think we as Adventists should be taught more about the history of this interesting religion, which is almost extinct today.
- They believed in One God (in contrast to other nations around them, who worshipped many gods). At times they were mistakenly accused of worshipping fire, because they used fire in their religious rituals to symbolize God.
- They believed that the One God was the creator of all things
- They also believed in a devil (whom they called Ahriman or Angra Mainyu, The Power of Evil)
- They believed that all of life/ human existence is a battle between good and evil
- Their aim, simply stated, was to promote "good thoughts, good words and good actions" and to avoid "evil thoughts, evil words and evil actions".
- They had prophecies about a Messiah-like Saviour that would come.
- They also had prophecies about the End Time - many of which read as if they have been lifted straight out of Daniel and Revelation.
- They were based in Persia (modern day Iran)
- According to the historical sources I have read, it appears that King Darius, King Xerxes (who married Esther) and King Cyrus would probably have followed this religion. (thus making them more favourable towards, and accepting of, the monotheism of their Hebrew captives?) My personal belief is that the Wise Men who came from the East were also Zoroastrians. Early Christian and Islamic texts refer to the Zoroastrians as "Magians" (i.e. "Magi"?).
Fascinating...
How come we never hear about this race/religion of people in our historical discussions? Their history would seem to be a natural addition to any Daniel/Revelation seminar.
aldona
_________________________
www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#23572 - 01/31/05 02:24 AM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: rmarte]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Aldona: I'll bite ... because some are afraid it would diminish the sense of OUR having special revelation. Some fear it might undermine faith in Scripture to realize how much of our own religion is "borrowed" (historically speaking) from Zoroastrianism.
I first learned about Zoroastrianism in college, from a rather "hip" theology professor who would have been considered the very incarnate devil himself to me were not his WORKS as a human being -- feeding the hungry, caring about the homeless, protesting against things destructive to the earth -- convinced me of the truth of his Christianity. (How's that for a switch?) His openly stated aim at the beginning of the semester was to "take our faith and strip it down to its core, then rebuild it on an entirely different -- and better -- foundation." And he sure made a formidable go of it.
I have long since thought like you that the Wise men were, in fact, astrologers and magickians from Persia/Iran, and Zoroastrian believers.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#23573 - 01/31/05 05:47 PM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Adventist Author
Registered: 11/15/04
Posts: 108
Loc: Texas
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It was fascinating to me to consider that other worlds and Satan were watching to see if God would sweep the world clean of humanity, as He had with Noah’s flood. Apparently, the pervasiveness of sin and the lack of knowledge about God was so critical that another flood, perhaps a permanent erasure of humans, seemed likely.
But God amazed them all with a different kind of flood. If you’ll forgive another quote from Messiah: “But instead of destroying the world, God sent His Son to save it. At the very moment when Satan seemed about to win, the Son of God came with proof of divine love and grace. When exactly the right time came, God poured out a flood of healing love that will never stop flowing until the plan of salvation is complete.”
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#23574 - 02/02/05 10:32 PM
Re: Ch. 3: The Fullness of the Time
[Re: ]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
It was fascinating to me to consider that other worlds and Satan were watching to see if God would sweep the world clean of humanity, as He had with Noah’s flood. Apparently, the pervasiveness of sin and the lack of knowledge about God was so critical that another flood, perhaps a permanent erasure of humans, seemed likely.
But God amazed them all with a different kind of flood. If you’ll forgive another quote from Messiah: “But instead of destroying the world, God sent His Son to save it. At the very moment when Satan seemed about to win, the Son of God came with proof of divine love and grace. When exactly the right time came, God poured out a flood of healing love that will never stop flowing until the plan of salvation is complete.”
I'm certain I'm not alone in seeing the direct parallels of that day (as depicted in this chapter) and our present day. Yet when I voice giving consideration to a completely different kind of "flood" (or in this case, fire) I am typically blasted as an heretic.
Why, after 2000 years, is it still so important to us to want to see our enemies destroyed? Why can't we accept that SIN is the real (and only) enemy -- a virus which can be eradicated out of quarantined files and sprites while they themselves are preserved, a virus destined to be thoroughly deleted at the great Rebooting of the Universe? And all the apocalypse (the unveiling, the revelation) does is prepare us for that event, by drawing the demarcation line between viral code and valid code so completely that no doubt can anymore remain in any mind.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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