I hear this often, I can;t believe someone came up with this argument, it sounds childish.

HEY DOUG

well I had not hear this before

but the devil will try to get
people to believe anything....


dgrimm60

I think the prevailing belief among most Adventists familiar with the issue is that the dinosaurs bones were buried by the flood. It took about 5 months for the water to completely cover the earth. Many dinosaurs fled to higher ground and many survived in the flood waters for a time.

and another belief i have heard is that God created all the old skeletons when He created earth.

I've never heard that one oldsailor, sounds really farout.

pk

Well, Doug, you're not the only one who's heard this. I heard it early on in the days we'd first become Adventist.

HEY OLDSALIOR29

I HAD not heard that one either like SHANE stated
most S.D.A. Christians believe that the flood kill
the dinosaurs....


dgrimm60

I guess "farout" means you think God couldn't do it?

Couldn't or wouldn't? If you can create an entire planet including an astonishing variety of living things out of nothing, burying a few bones would be easy-peasy. But why would you? To deliberately mislead those you've created? I would say people who dismiss this explanation do so on the basis of their understanding of God's character, not his power.

God can do anything, but why and for what purpose, would be my question?

pk

I just think too many people are in the habit of saying God couldn't do this or that based on their "knowledge" of His character, or based on western reasoning. And these are probably the same people who are in the habit of using earlier chapters of Job in proof texts, disregarding the fact that the speakers in those chapters were roundly rebuked in chapter 38 - 41 by God, because they actually didn't know anything about Him.

I'm not saying that God created old dinosaur skeletons. I'm just saying He could have done so, and He wouldn't need a reason which would be understood by any of us. He could have done it because it was fun, or for no reason at all, or to give geologists something to about which to speculate. And if you think God wouldn't or couldn't do something to deceive people, think again because that is exactly what Micaiah said God did to the prophets of Ahab, in 1Kings 22.

And I've heard the speculations about dinosaurs being destroyed in the flood. That does seem like a reasonable explanation, for there is no record of dinosaurs on Noah's ark. But for those who have never heard that God could have created those old skeletons when He created the Earth before, well you have heard it now.

We agree that dinosaurs were created do we not? As they were destroyed in and buried by the Flood, they must have existed before it.

This verse therefore is a direct record of dinosaurs on Noah's Ark.

Graeme

If dinosaurs were on the Ark, where are they now?

Oldsailor, I personally believe that none of them were on the ark. When 3 ABN first came on the seen, they had a show about dinosaurs, and the guy who was the host, said that he believed that dinosaurs were not created by God. They were genetic experiments by the people before the time of Noah. I wish I could find that series and see all of it. I'm not saying that what he was saying was correct but it was as plausible as anything I had and have heard from anyone.

pk

The book, "Dinosaurs- An Adventist View" talks about the makeup of dinosaur body parts... very interesting!!

Lots of speculation...

I wonder what Atheists would say about that.

I have to believe that Richard Dawkins would not approve of the book.

Of course having Ellen White's "eye witness account" for creation and the extinction of dinosaurs at the flood does help - because science is all about "observation" over guesswork


in Christ,

Bob

An other subject where science is thrown out and speculation abounds!

When will anyone just admit they haven't a real answer to all the different levels of life and 'dino's'!

The Adventist Today website has a very interesting discussion of this book by Cliff Goldstein and Erv Taylor. Read for your enlightenment.

Very interesting, particularly the comments following the review.

Again, for me, I don't need all the answers, but I do like to explore!!

Yes, I have heard that explanation. It does seem plausible. But also plausible is the theory that they existed on this planet long before creation week, or that God created the old fossils during creation week. I have not seen any evidence of genetic experiments carried out by people before the flood, except when the fallen angels took wives from among the humans and produced the giants.

Why do you believe that fallen angels (a) took human wives and (b) could interbreed with humans anyway?

Graeme

That belief is based upon a misunderstanding of the term "sons of God," as used in the Bible. See Gen. 6:2

To the Noah's ark mention - there's no account of any specific species of animals. There's only the general and vague clean/unclean designation. The only species listed are the raven and the dove.

While I was raised evolutionist, I can say today that I hardly agree with most of evolution theory's underlying premises. It is only when we accept the premise that certain things must require long periods of time, and other things must be constant throughout all time and conditions, that we begin to by default try to trump God's word with man's speculations and theories.

What are these long age points?

Fossilization. Sedimentary deposition rates. Erosion rates.

Question: if rapid burial is what is required to maintain the body for fossilization, how rapid does the sediment build-up have to be to bury your average house-sized Brachiosaur? The elephant-sized Triceratops? Nearly impossible - unless we involve depositional rates far in excess of the worst flooding we have witnessed in man's reckoning. Anything less, and the body is exposed and destroyed by natural scavenging and decay forces.

Things that must remain constant? Radioactive decay. Tectonic movement rates.

Yes, God can do lots of things. Anything. But we must be careful in attributing things to God outside His Word.

Dinosaurs existing prior to Creation week? That declares the death and predation are but God's way of maintaining nature, and not the products of sin, as His Word says. Then, we must decide if God is telling the truth in His Word, or deceiving us about origins.

The evolutionary theory of origins has a decided protocol of events. Creation, as stated in God's Word, has a stated protocol of events. The orders of these two cannot be meshed or interchanged. It is either one or the other.

Do I belive Satan buried the dinosaurs? Never heard that one in 24 years being an Adventist. I prefer to believe God buried them in the Flood.

Do I believe dinosaurs and man walked together? Actually, I do. Archaeology has uncovered cave paintings and detailed petroglyphs (carvings on rocks and stones) from many parts of the world depicting dinosaurs and people together, the details of which the "primitive" peoples could have no knowledge of if dinosaurs have been extinct long before man came on the scene.

Gotta roll!

That belief is based upon a misunderstanding of the term "sons of God," as used in the Bible. See Gen. 6:2 [/quote]

I believe this is taught in the book of Enoch.

If dinosaurs went on the ark it would have only been a handful. The Flood kicked off global climate change in a big way. The Flood is believed to have started both the Ice Age and platectonics. The small post-flood population of dinosaurs may simple have died out due to inability to adjust. Of course this is pure speculation but we are looking for plausible answers not probable.

Dinosaurs: Perspectives by Goldstein and Taylor

I though I would post the link.

Shane:

You are correct. It is taught in the Book of Enoch. Here is a quote:



Yes, such is said in the Book of Enoch. But, that writing is not recognized as part of the Bible. The above section came from somewhere (Exact point unknown to me.) in chapters 14 - 16 which probably were written about 176 B.C. E.

Interestingly the Book of Enoch was among the Dead Sea Scrolls.

The ancient writing that did ntomake in into the canon of Scripture are quite interesting.

I find the INFANCY GOSPELS, and specificly THE GOSPEL OF THOMAS to be interesting stories of the life of Christ as a small child. It is of interst to see Christ depected as a miracle working child who kills children who offend him and then returns them to life when their mothers come to him in tears.

The creation myths are also of interst. In the collection knows as the ORIGIN OF THE WORLD (GNOSTIC) I find THE RAPE OF EVE BY THE PRIME RULER (GOD) AND HIS ANGELS to be of interst.

NOTE: My interest has been stimulated my my recent aquisation of the book: THE OTHER BIBLE: JEWISH PSEUDEPIGRAPHA, CHRISTIAN APOCRYPHA GNOSTIC SCRIPTURES, KABBALAH, DEAD SEA SCROLLS, edited by Willis Barnstone, Harper/Collins Publishers, 2005, 773 pages.

I find it very interesting to read examples of what was circulated as Scripture but did not make it into the Bible.

Humans may someday be called sons and daughters of God, but I can't find any who were called that as a group anytime before Jesus.   I think "Sons of God" in Genesis referred to male created beings, as opposed to children.   And we really do not know that angels are physically unable to breed with humans.   There is much literary evidence to the contrary.

The idea that some of the fallen angels took wives from among the humans is so repugnant that ancient scholars were impelled to find a different interpretation, which is why most people believe "sons of God" refers to descendants of Seth.   The shocking realities of several things in scripture are hidden in one way or another.   But fallen angels fit into the flood story much more logically than the godly descendants of Seth.   The offspring of these demon beasts were out of control all over the earth to such an extent that God had to destroy all but a few people.

Ever wonder why millions of people will die of fright in the last days?   It is because things on earth will be as they were in the days of Noah.   Once again fallen angel demon beasts will take human wives and produce evil offspring who will wreak havoc all over the earth.

This is what I will believe until somebody thinks of a more logical interpretation.

What a lovely fairy tale!

Graeme

Since we are engaging in advanced levels of specious speculation on these topics I will enter an idea of my own in this delusional derby.

I have previously suggested (quite seriously though...) that the clean vs. unclean dichotomy of Scripture as not truly being about healthful vs. not healthful to eat. *** It really had more to do about bloodline (or simply blood) purity. I think the concept of purity has a lot to do with being purebreed or being uncorrupted genetically. I think all those species that were deemed to be "clean" or pure were simply not genetically "engineered" and remained of pure bloodlines from the set of creatures God originally created before sin was introduced to this earth. The unclean were those creatures that had been subject to one degree or another of inter-breeding and/or possibly some antediluvian genetic engineering or creative source other than God himself or maybe even God's own creation rejects. (If you think God doesn't get it exactly right the first attempt see the miracle of Jesus that required a redo... Mark 8:22-26.)

Since speculation is now acceptable and normative, God may have also introduced new creatures post-sin for animal (or even human) population control, refuse abatement, i.e., predators, scavengers, bottom feeders, etc. Or it may be simply that the genetic code created by God was programmed to respond to sin and ecological imbalance caused by sin and sinful mankind with survival of the species adaptations and mutations.

Or equally plausible is that when God threw Satan out of heaven, he was banished to this earth and allowed some latitude to create his own kingdom his own way, since he really wanted to be God. (He is referred to as the "Prince" of this world in Scripture...) God seeing what a mess Satan had created here on this planet (the earth was "without form" - Hebrew alternate meaning is "wilderness" "place of chaos" "confusion"...)decided to create His own beachhead to take over and challenge Satan's corrupted theory of creation and rulership by force, dominance and capitalism. (Just had to play with the narrow political minds a bit... ) So God created a perfect Garden with perfect (pure) creatures and a perfect couple of humans... Then they went over to the dark side and got thrown out of their paradise too...

In the flood story, if God was cleaning up the mess of sin corruption from his original design it would seem logical that he would destroy the worst mutations (call them amalgamations if that will make you feel better...)or aberrations or complete genetic accidents or even his own creation rejects or less than perfect experiments. And by allowing even some of the impure into the ark, he wasn't giving those creatures very good odds of survival by only taking one female and one male on-board since either dying would wipe out that species. Those impure or unclean that were saved may have been deemed naturally useful (predators and scavengers) or useful to man (horses and camels).

In any event, God only knows and faith suggests that I trust Him with those things that only he knows. The only Truth worth anything is simply acknowledging and respecting that God is the Creator and I am not. That is where the Bible begins and ends.

Tom

*** (See Genesis post flood directive of God to Noah to eat everything that lived and breathed and moved on the earth and compare it with the primary purpose of the distinction of Leviticus which was to use only the purest and most spotless things for sacrifice or for access to the tabernacle services... And understand that the sacrificial system and the clean/unclean distinction pre-existed the directive to eat meat of any kind...)

There is a lot to think about there, Tom. That is why science cannot tackle the issue of origins. Origins is a study much larger than the discipline of science encompasses.

Ever hear of terrorism? Disease...Propaganda...Yeah those are where a lot of your fright comes from. Not to mention earthquakes, hurricanes, and tsunamis all over the place. Why do you think Jesus says the last days would be like the days of Noah? Do you not see His reason? He tells you...

"For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered into the ark"(Matthew 24:38) Do you not see this today?

What? No demon beasts or evil offspring?

Ah, Shane - it's in the movies!

And we ALL know that's true stuff, right???

Sorry for the diversion from the latest subject on this thread--but on the original subject...That is news to me. I have been an Adventist all my life and I have never heard that before.

Read's book opens up a lot of discussion for a lot of possibilities. Prediluvian man may have been technologically advanced. Perhaps more advanced than us today. In fact, if man lived to be 700-900 years old imagine how intelligent a person could become. The old song says, "when I learned enough to really live I'll be old enough to die." That is so true. When we are hitting the age of 60 or 65 we are just getting to know enough to really live and most of us a thinking about retirement. Consider a scientist that could live 900 years. Genetic engineering would be the ultimate to master too. Assuming these prediluvian men wanted to be like God as Lucifer did, wouldn't they try to create life? If that is the case, it is little wonder we find so many fossils that appear to support an evolution of species.

Now, building on that idea, look at how God handles it. He doesn't send them back to the stone age as we would refer to it today. He creates a stone age to send them too. How does he do that? He completely wipes out the world that sinful man has made. He shortens sinful man's lifespan. So He takes away their technology. He takes away their infrastructure. And he shortens their life spans so it will be harder for future generations to rediscover what the prediluvian men had learned.

Shane...that's a theory I have heard and read about in more than one source. While I can't "prove it", I know no scientist in his right mind would try to, either. It does stand to reason, though, that people fresh from creation, with undimmed faculties of brain and intellect, would become masters of industry and science very, very quickly. In five generations, Cain's descendants had the fore-fathers of agricultural, metal, and arts industries mastered. Their sister - Naamah - is credited by tradition with the "invention" of the Ashtoreth-type fertility religion...aka, the temple virgin stuff.

There quite possibly could have been a very dazzling world-wide culture when Methuselah was about 500 years old. The sons of Seth could have been seen by the descendants of Cain as somewhat "Amish" by comparison.

Let's propose a point...the average elephant and your ordinary Triceratops were of comparable size. However, paleontological forensics on the bones put the muscle mass of the Triceratops at 9 times that of the elephant. Meaning in a pushing match, the elephant would lose every time....badly.

For agriculture and ranching, though, that would mean a much more powerful plow animal - or 9 times the meat to meat a burgeoning population's meat diet. All through a mastery of genetics...

What would possibly make a better guard animal - the knee-high (to a 12 foot prediluvian man) lion (here, kitty, kitty!)? Or a T-Rex looking down upon that 12 foot man?

Work hard all the time? Why, when you can generate some "less than human" Neanderthals to do the grunt work for you? A built in slave trade for the race of Cain, thanks to genetics.

They might look at our technology today, and be utterly unimpressed. Their minds would be flowing faster and more clearly than our best computers today...

Their metallurgy would likely make ours today look positively primitive Bronze Age by comparison.

And we haven't even begun to fathom the depths as to what we can do with sound and music. Evidently, they were quite the masters.

All speculation, of course. But it would explain a lot in Genesis - and why the Tower of Babel would be man's attempt to regain the "paradise lost" due to the Flood.

And it give Noah's Ark - gopher wood sealed with pitch - the "low-tech" excuse to be dismissed by the Prediluvian race..."Even if Noah was right, how could THAT get ANYONE through the storm?" Never you mind it was to all about faith, not the ship itself...

There have been reported some archeological sites uncovered where there have been giant skeletons, with pottery and other artifacts from previously unknown cultures noted. They don't get much in the way of headlines, because it treads too close to the Creation story. The smaller quasi-human skeletons nearby, however, do get the headlines.

Rolling on...