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#25898 - 02/13/05 10:48 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1222
Loc: CA
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That is a good question. I'm not sure but I think it was meant to be so that they would stir up the beginning of interest of man in the coming of the Messiah.
What amazes me is how on their toes these Magi were. Those guys probably had been searching the scriptures for years with all their hearts, and were alert enough to correlated the "star" with scripture.
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#25899 - 02/13/05 04:13 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: lastsupper]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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The magi in question are thought to have been Zoroastrian astrologers and diviners from Persia. If you read Isaiah 19:18-25 carefully you will find indication of an important principle: namely, that God has left Himself witness in every tradition, faith and system on the planet even those that are "idolatrous," magick-based, pagan, etc. or do not seem to worship Him; in each there is "an altar to the Lord in the heart [thereof] and a monument to the Lord at its border." This is spoken of as being in Egypt in this passage but the principle, I believe, applies everywhere. Paul makes use of that principle in his Mars Hill discourse in Acts chapter 17, verses 22-33, beginning with that very altar (this one in Greek tradition!) and reasoning outward to the Creator God and His Son.
I don't know why the SDAs traditionally assign Egypt as a symbol of atheism. Egyptian religion is as polytheistically rich as any other pagan tradition from the Babylonian onward through the Graeco-Roman. I do not subscribe to this strict symbolic assignment, obviously, particularly because the Order I belonged to drew heavily upon elements of the Egyptian pantheon (collection of godforms) to furnish their own.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#25901 - 02/14/05 08:40 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Public Nuisance
Registered: 08/03/02
Posts: 2885
Loc: On the outside, looking in
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Quote:
Quote:
The wise men from the East were philosophers. They belonged to a large and influential class that included men of noble birth, and comprised much of the wealth and learning of their nation. Among these were many who imposed on the credulity of the people. Others were upright men who studied the indications of Providence in nature, and who were honored for their integrity and wisdom. Of this character were the wise men who came to Jesus.
Studying the indications of Providence in nature? This sounds "suspiciously" pagan to me ... whether omens in the stars or whatever ... what were they studying? In any case, because their character was upright and of integrity, they were led to find Jesus. It is no different today: "wise men still seek Him," and they still find Him no matter where they started off.
Nico, have you ever heard the hypothesis that "the zodiac" as it is known by astrologers today, was originally placed in the sky by God to inform the descendants of Adam about the plan of salvation? (before there was such a thing as the written Word of God).
Some theologians believe this is the reason why the constellations take the form of imagery like...
the virgin
the ram (sheep)
the goat
the water bearer (water of life?)
the lion (of Judah?)
the fish (anything to do with the fish being the symbol of early Christianity?)
the scales (anything to do with "weighed in the balances and found wanting"? -remember that the Zoroastrians believed that when we die our good deeds and bad deeds are weighed on a scale, and the good must outweigh the bad)
It is a concept I have heard and seen alluded to in the occasional book/sermon...although part of the above could be just my imagination running riot...
...but remember that when God created the heavenly bodies he meant for them to be "for signs and seasons."
aldona
_________________________
www.asrc.org.au (Asylum Seeker Resource Centre, Melbourne) Helping over 2000 refugees & asylum seekers each month “Man’s mind stretched to a new idea never goes back to its original dimensions.” — Oliver Wendell Holmes
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#25902 - 02/14/05 01:59 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: rmarte]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
Nico, have you ever heard the hypothesis that "the zodiac" as it is known by astrologers today, was originally placed in the sky by God to inform the descendants of Adam about the plan of salvation? (before there was such a thing as the written Word of God).
Yes, actually, I have. I believe the book of Genesis hints at as much with the following:
Quote:
14 And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
15 And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
16 And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
No reason why those stars could not be "for signs" and refer to what you mentioned above, eh?
Now if I'd read a little further I could have answered my own questions above!
Quote:
The light of God is ever shining amid the darkness of heathenism. As these magi studied the starry heavens, and sought to fathom the mystery hidden in their bright paths, they beheld the glory of the Creator. Seeking clearer knowledge, they turned to the Hebrew Scriptures. In their own land were treasured prophetic writings that predicted the coming of a divine teacher. Balaam belonged to the magicians, though at one time a prophet of God; by the Holy Spirit he had foretold the prosperity of Israel and the appearing of the Messiah; and his prophecies had been handed down by tradition from century to century. But in the Old Testament the Saviour's advent was more clearly revealed. The magi learned with joy that His coming was near, and that the whole world was to be filled with a knowledge of the glory of the Lord.
They could only have learned such a thing if they'd been (a) open minded and (b) eclectic and nonpartisan in their search for wisdom. Perhaps these are qualities we'd do well to emulate?
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#25903 - 02/14/05 09:56 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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The reason we accociate Egypt with Atheism is based on Rev. 11:7-9.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. (NIV)
When Moses insisted that Pharoah let the Jews go, he told Moses: "Who is this God that I should serve Him." (I wrote this from memory). Rev 11 applies especially to the time in France when for three and a half years, all religion and the Bible were legally outlawed (1793-1797). Atheism became to religion of the country.
Your friend,
Dave M
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#25904 - 02/14/05 10:21 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: CaregiverDee]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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In a sense they were not searching. The distant group of angels which they thought a star led them to Jerusalem. God Himself led them to Jerusalem. The birth of Jesus was not to be in a corner. God wanted the Jews to be aware that the Messiah was born. The news about the shepherds had reached then months before. But not one of them took the trouble to go to Bethlehem to check it out. Being God's chosen people, He was giving them a chance to accept the Messiah and proclaim His birth. Instead they reacted with jealousy, hatred, and indifference. Quote:
The priests and elders of Jerusalem were not as ignorant concerning the birth of Christ as they pretended. The report of the angels' visit to the shepherds had been brought to Jerusalem, but the rabbis had treated it as unworthy of their notice. They themselves might have found Jesus, and might have been ready to lead the magi to His birthplace; but instead of this, the wise men came to call their attention to the birth of the Messiah. "Where is He that is born King of the Jews?" they said; "for we have seen His star in the East, and are come to worship Him." {DA 62.3}
Now pride and envy closed the door against the light. If the reports brought by the shepherds and the wise men were credited, they would place the priests and rabbis in a most unenviable position, disproving their claim to be the exponents of the truth of God. These learned teachers would not stoop to be instructed by those whom they termed heathen. It could not be, they said, that God had passed them by, to communicate with ignorant shepherds or uncircumcised Gentiles. They determined to show their contempt for the reports that were exciting King Herod and all Jerusalem. They would not even go to Bethlehem to see whether these things were so. And they led the people to regard the interest in Jesus as a fanatical excitement. Here began the rejection of Christ by the priests and rabbis. From this point their pride and stubbornness grew into a settled hatred of the Saviour. While God was opening the door to the Gentiles, the Jewish leaders were closing the door to themselves. {DA 62.4}
Maybe we should take heed to this. Are we ready to give the final message if that message comes to us through those we deem "heathem".
Your friend,
Dave M
Your friend,
Dave M
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#25905 - 02/14/05 10:38 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: Ron W]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Quote:
The reason we accociate Egypt with Atheism is based on Rev. 11:7-9.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. (NIV)
When Moses insisted that Pharoah let the Jews go, he told Moses: "Who is this God that I should serve Him." (I wrote this from memory). Rev 11 applies especially to the time in France when for three and a half years, all religion and the Bible were legally outlawed (1793-1797). Atheism became to religion of the country.
That's nice, but it does not change HISTORY. Egypt was NOT an atheist nation, and there is no precedent for assigning it such a symbol. Just because Pharoah said he didn't know "The Lord" doesn't mean he did not pray to his own voluminous pantheon of Gods, as history attests, unless they were already in the period known as the "heresy of Amen-ra" since Amen-Ra proposed monotheism for the first time in Egypt.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#25907 - 02/15/05 06:16 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1222
Loc: CA
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Quote:
Soldiers were at once sent to Bethlehem, with orders to put to death all the children of two years and under...
This calamity the Jews had brought upon themselves...they had separated themselves from God by their sins, and had rejected the Holy Spirit, which was their only shield.
These types of passages are useful to me, because in my battle with temptations, sometimes, the turning point for me to overcome temptation is fear of God. I know that He is loving, and merciful, and quick to forgive, but I also know that the wages of sin is death.
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#25908 - 02/15/05 06:28 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: lastsupper]
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Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1222
Loc: CA
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Quote:
They had not studied the Scriptures with a desire to conform to the will of God. They had searched for prophecies which could be interpreted to exalt themselves, and to show how God despised all other nations.
This serves as a reminder to me to always pray before I study the bible, so that He may guide me. It's a bit scary to think of how well they must've known the bible, yet still have rejected Him.
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#25910 - 02/15/05 03:55 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: Ron W]
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Registered: 09/04/02
Posts: 4699
Loc: New England
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Quote:
The reason we accociate Egypt with Atheism is based on Rev. 11:7-9.
7 Now when they have finished their testimony, the beast that comes up from the Abyss will attack them, and overpower and kill them.
8 Their bodies will lie in the street of the great city, which is figuratively called Sodom and Egypt, where also their Lord was crucified.
9 For three and a half days men from every people, tribe, language and nation will gaze on their bodies and refuse them burial. (NIV)
But there is nothing in those texts about atheism!
/Bevin
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#25911 - 02/15/05 09:29 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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Quote:
That's nice, but it does not change HISTORY. Egypt was NOT an atheist nation, and there is no precedent for assigning it such a symbol. Just because Pharoah said he didn't know "The Lord" doesn't mean he did not pray to his own voluminous pantheon of Gods, as history attests, unless they were already in the period known as the "heresy of Amen-ra" since Amen-Ra proposed monotheism for the first time in Egypt.
First, he was praying to non-existent gods. Second, he denied the existence of the only existing God.
Quote:
"The great city" in whose streets the witnesses are slain, and where their dead bodies lie, is "spiritually" Egypt. Of all nations presented in Bible history, Egypt most boldly denied the existence of the living God and resisted His commands. No monarch ever ventured upon more open and highhanded rebellion against the authority of Heaven than did the king of Egypt. When the message was brought him by Moses, in the name of the Lord, Pharaoh proudly answered: "Who is Jehovah, that I should hearken unto His voice to let Israel go? I know not Jehovah, and moreover I will not let Israel go." Exodus 5:2, A.R.V. This is atheism, and the nation represented by Egypt would give voice to a similar denial of the claims of the living God and would manifest a like spirit of unbelief and defiance. "The great city" is also compared, "spiritually," to Sodom. The corruption of Sodom in breaking the law of God was especially manifested in licentiousness. And this sin was also to be a pre-eminent characteristic of the nation that should fulfill the specifications of this scripture. {GC 269.2}
Openly dening the existence of God is Atheism.
Your friend,
Dave M
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#25912 - 02/15/05 10:34 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: Ron W]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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The following paragraph struck me this morning. Quote:
The magi had been among the first to welcome the Redeemer. Their gift was the first that was laid at His feet. And through that gift, what privilege of ministry was theirs! The offering from the heart that loves, God delights to honor, giving it highest efficiency in service for Him. If we have given our hearts to Jesus, we also shall bring our gifts to Him. Our gold and silver, our most precious earthly possessions, our highest mental and spiritual endowments, will be freely devoted to Him who loved us, and gave Himself for us. {DA 65.2}
Sometimes I feel that to devote all I have, am, and possess, even mentally to God is a great sacrifice. I need time to take care of my own needs. There is baseball and football. I have my pets. What about TV. Does God expect me to deny myself any or all of these pleasures and duties?
I thought about the great sacrifice for Dave that Jesus' love drove Him to do. He took on my human nature. The Godhead is forever changed. Then He died a torturious death for Dave. When He rose, He rose with a human nature forever. When I think about this great steadfast love, this dependablity, this forgiveness, this offer of eternal life, I cannot help but respond with love for Him.
What He is asking of me is to let Him work through me to share heaven with others. If I truly love Him, and am filled with His love, then I will not be able to stop myself from reaching out to others. I will naturally tell others how to accept Him and what He would like for us to do.
Your friend,
Dave M
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#25915 - 02/16/05 05:07 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 09/27/04
Posts: 1222
Loc: CA
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#25916 - 02/16/05 09:37 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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Quote:
I would prefer we not detract from this study any more in debating this matter. Let us simply agree to disagree, and if you wish to bring it up further as a point of debate perhaps a new thread under "Bible and Theology" is warranted. Thanks for understanding.
1. You are the one wkho challenged my statement. I did not start any debates.
2. I often take long sabbateicals from this site because of the debating natures of some members. I have never liked debates. If you have noticed, when any thread turns into a debate, I will stop contributing.
3. I seldom read some of the members comments because they have no interest in a relationship with Christ. I have noticed that whenever I enter a post concerning how salvation works and what a wonderful Savior I have, it is totally ignored.
4. You want us to read the DA. But when I offered a quote from EGW from another book in this series where she clearly assoicated the Pharoah of the exodus with atheism, you ignored that. Why?
Your friend,
Dave M
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#25917 - 02/17/05 05:25 AM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: Ron W]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Dave, once again I'm going to ask you to please not detract from the study of this chapter any further. If you have personal issues with me, we can take these up in private. If you have personal issues with what you perceive as responses board-wide to this or that type of post you make, please be realistic: I cannot possibly answer for that. If you want to be provocative and debate a point, please take it over to Bible & Theology.
I'm not a moderator so these are just my requests for this thread. I don't have any power to MAKE you honor them, so I am having to appeal to your compassion and common sense in helping us keep this thread on topic. Thank you for understanding.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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#25918 - 02/17/05 07:35 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: ]
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Registered: 07/06/03
Posts: 844
Loc: Illinois
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I meant no disrespect toward you. I always welcome input from others. I was trying to share my ideas. I apologize for being defensive.
Your friend,
Dave M
Edited by DaveM1936 (02/17/05 07:40 PM)
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#25919 - 02/18/05 02:32 PM
Re: Ch. 6: "We Have Seen His Star"
[Re: Ron W]
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Registered: 11/22/03
Posts: 777
Loc: Beyond your grasp
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Likewise, Brother - I apologize if I came across as argumentative or stifling. It's been a grueling week for me. Let's set it aside and prepare for entering His rest together, and lift one another in prayer today, OK? And let's continue our study together and share freely from whatever insights we each are given. I'd like to see different ideas shared here in a cooperative spirit. I apologize for any time I have violated that intent or that spirit.
_________________________
"After such knowledge, what forgiveness?" -- T.S. Eliot
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