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#348963 - 2010-04-01 06:14:27 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
John317 Online   content


Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19741
Loc: CA
Quote:
rasell: Hello, I wanted to explain what my book has added to the sanctuary questions.
The biggest challenges to the sanctuary doctrine is the "within the veil" statement in Hebrews, which opponents say means Jesus entered the Most Holy Place at his ascension to the right hand of the Father.
They also say this shows that the day of atonement was fulfilled at the cross and 1844 is a non starter.


Let's suppose that Jesus did enter the Most Holy Place at his ascension. It was where His Father was, so Jesus went in there to be with His Father. What difference does that make to the SDA view of the IJ? If He did go in there, did He go in there to begin the Pre-Advent Judgment? If not, why does it matter whether He stepped foot in the Most Holy Place before Oct. 22, 1844? Personally, I don't believe the writer of the book of Hebrews was concerned with that issue at all. He was talking about an entirely different subject. He was saying that through the Messiah, we now have totally unimpeaded access to the Father, and no longer need to offer animal sacrifices because Christ our sacrifice has been offered once for all time. The writer is not concerned with whether Christ went into a particular part of the sanctuary or not. I doubt he'd have understood what that is all about.

Quote:
rasell: The answer to this is simply as follows:
1. traditionally we have argues that "within the veil" is either the outer veil, or the inner one, but both of these have problems, a more foundational question needs to be asked, is Hebrews referring to a veil in heaven, it seems that he is using the veil of the earthly tabernacle as a symbol of Christ's entrance into the Presence of God just as the High Priest entered the Presence once a year on the Day of Atonement. Hebrews is simply using the Day of Atonement rite as a symbol of Christ's entrance to God's Presence in heaven. It is not making a statement about where Christ is in heaven, that is going beyond the context of the book of Hebrews, they were not concered where Christ was in the temple, only that the earthly temple was now obsolete and access to God is provided by Christ in the heavenly temple. The exact location of Christ in heaven is never addressed in Hebrews which speaks of the "ta hagia" holy places in heaven, a reference to the whole sanctuary



OK, great! That's what I think too. You made the same point I made above in my reply to your first paragraph.

Here's where I'm at in this topic: I'm completely convinced of the reality of the Investigative Judgment and of the biblical evidence that it is going on now. I believe it is real and that it will soon come to an end. But the really important question for the church and the world now, is, So what? Why does the IJ matter? In what way does it matter? How does it relate to all of our other doctrines? Et Cetera.

My own opinion is that we need to start relating it directly to the difference between the covering of sins as opposed to the blotting out of sins. Jesus is in the business of covering AND blotting out our sins, not just covering them up. Most of the Christian church is only concerned with the forgiveness of sins and knows nothing of the blotting out of sins. It makes a big difference, because the time will soon come when there will be no more forgiveness and no more High Priest. Tragically, many in the SDA church are on the point of forgetting (or have long since already forgotten) this aspect of our message and many are adopting the theology of Christians who believe Christ is still in the Holy Place and don't realize He's gone into the Most Holy.

Your thoughts?

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#350157 - 2010-04-06 05:04:40 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: John317]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 33
Quote:
Let's suppose that Jesus did enter the Most Holy Place at his ascension. It was where His Father was, so Jesus went in there to be with His Father. What difference does that make to the SDA view of the IJ? If He did go in there, did He go in there to begin the Pre-Advent Judgment? If not, why does it matter whether He stepped foot in the Most Holy Place before Oct. 22, 1844? Personally, I don't believe the writer of the book of Hebrews was concerned with that issue at all. He was talking about an entirely different subject. He was saying that through the Messiah, we now have totally unimpeaded access to the Father, and no longer need to offer animal sacrifices because Christ our sacrifice has been offered once for all time. The writer is not concerned with whether Christ went into a particular part of the sanctuary or not. I doubt he'd have understood what that is all about.


I agree generally with what you are saying, Hebrews is not concerned with location but access in the heavenly temple.

Quote:
Here's where I'm at in this topic: I'm completely convinced of the reality of the Investigative Judgment and of the biblical evidence that it is going on now. I believe it is real and that it will soon come to an end. But the really important question for the church and the world now, is, So what? Why does the IJ matter? In what way does it matter? How does it relate to all of our other doctrines? Et Cetera.

My own opinion is that we need to start relating it directly to the difference between the covering of sins as opposed to the blotting out of sins. Jesus is in the business of covering AND blotting out our sins, not just covering them up. Most of the Christian church is only concerned with the forgiveness of sins and knows nothing of the blotting out of sins. It makes a big difference, because the time will soon come when there will be no more forgiveness and no more High Priest. Tragically, many in the SDA church are on the point of forgetting (or have long since already forgotten) this aspect of our message and many are adopting the theology of Christians who believe Christ is still in the Holy Place and don't realize He's gone into the Most Holy.

Your thoughts?


Leviticus 23 does show there is a special work of confession of sin on the Day of Atonement, which applies to our time now. God's people are also called to deny themselves, make sacrifices and confess all sins.
There is a work of preparation and revival that needs to happen in the church before Christ returns.

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#350490 - 2010-04-07 04:33:41 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: John317]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 33
Originally Posted By: John317


I'd like to hear your explanation of what practical difference it makes to an individual in his daily life whether he accepts the view you take of the Investigative Judgment or not.

For instance:

1) Does understanding the IJ make the believer a better and more loving Christian?

2) Does understanding and believing the IJ make one better prepared for Christ's coming? If so, how?

3) In the Great Controversy, it speaks of "new duties" that are required of us and it says we become aware of these duties as we follow Jesus' work in the heavenly sanctuary. What are these new duties?

4) What are the benefits that we will experience if we follow Jesus in His High Priestly work in heaven-- benefits that will be lost on those who do not follow His mediation there?

5) Why is it important for the Seventh-day Adventist church to keep the doctrine of the Investigative Judgment? What do you see as the consequences for the church if it gave it up?


I think the IJ is only a subset of the sanctuary doctrine, which includes a picture of Christ as our loving mediator.
Certainly it goes against the once saved always saved concept. We do need to follow Christ into the Most Holy Place, which reveals new duties, the law, judgement and eradication of sin from the universe. If we forsake the sanctuary doctrine, we would no longer truly be the remnant church, because one of the identifying marks and message of the remnant is that God's judgement hour has come.

There is a work of purification that needs to take place on earth, suggested in Malachi 3 when the sons of Levi are purified, in connected with the time when Jesus suddenly comes to His temple before He returns.

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#364927 - 2010-06-08 07:56:25 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 33
This book and Nehemiah the Sabbath Explorer were featured in two local newspapers where I live. I'm hoping souls will be reached through this, more details are on my website in the blog section.
p.s. please if you have any positive feedback please can you leave some at amazon.com and amazon.co.uk
Thanks

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#364928 - 2010-06-08 07:59:10 Re: new publication on the heavenly sanctuary [Re: rasell]
rasell Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 2010-01-19
Posts: 33
Some thoughts on Hebrews 9, this chapter covers the daily rites, inauguration and Day of Atonement. Its purpose is not to say all these things have been exhausted, but rather that Christ is superior to the ritual system.
The issue of timing and location are not the focus. Many people have fallen into the trap of reading more into this chapter than was intended.

When it comes to timing, it is clear that Christ had an ongoing intercession (Heb. 7:25; 9:24) and there a future judgement.

Even the daily rites had an eschatalogical element, because David said he understood the end of the wicked after going to the temple.

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