I don't get it cardw, If suffering is a part of the natural order and necessary for maturity then why are you complaining about God not removing it??? If God changes people and they become different, loving more and fearing less,then apparently Christianity HAS a solution for suffering,particularly if Christians stop causing others to suffer.

First of all I'm not complaining about any god not removing it. I am stating that it's problem if there is an all powerful god as described in the Bible.

Well Christianity's solution is to populate the earth with a whole different set of people. That doesn't solve the problem of suffering, it ignores it completely. It fails to address the suffering that has taken place already.

Why not create people that way in first place?

Why all the drama and suffering if all god has to do is change people?

And apparently this change doesn't happen until after Jesus comes again, which basically makes it a myth with no proof, much like much of Christianity.

Sorry, this problem requires a little more thought...

One innocent person, being or angel could not take the punishment for another except for the Lawmaker. In order for justice to be served, the Lawmaker had to take the punishment of the law-breaker. God could not simply pardon the law-breaker without undermining the law. If rebellion against the law could simply be pardoned, then the law isn't that big of a deal. The fact that the Lawgiver had to die in order to pardon the law-breaker tells of the significance of the law.

Suffering is understood because God is on trial. Satan has accused God of not being fair. Satan has accused God's law of being too restrictive. Satan has aspired to sit in God's place. Thus God allows Satan to be here on earth so all the universe can see what Satan's world is like. All the suffering that takes place is a vindication of God. God did not and does not cause the suffering but He allows it because He is on trial.

So if there's not an all powerful God out there there's no problem?Or do you think that the problem IS an all powerful God,as described in the Bible, because He didn't create people who were incapable of causing suffering? Is that what you would have done if you were the all powerful God?

I no longer care much for religion and church, and rarely attend any services. I'm listed as a member, but that is meaningless to me.

Once we discard our man-made religions and the culture that goes with it and begin to serve the LORD and mankind, we will unlock the chains that keep us restrained. We should all start something new, an Un-religion, with no more churches, paid preachers, conferences, membership roles, pleas for generous offerings, etc.

The main goal of the Un-religion would be to serve others, even if it makes us poor or vicious people kill us for it. In serving others we ultimately serve the LORD. If we fail to try to meet the needs of others, especially if they're less fortunate than ourselves, we fail to serve the LORD. The only thing the LORD really wants from this planet is willing servants.

Forget religions. They're all next to worthless unless they are somehow able to transform us into meek and humble servants who will willingly work for the LORD and not harm ourselves or others.

Like it or not, if the Bible is true, then this life is a test to determine who will qualify for the next life. If the Bible is true, then we will ultimately have only two choices. If we think the LORD is unjust, and we doubt his words, our rebellion and unbelief will then determine our sentence. If we choose to serve the Good master over the Evil Master, we will have no fear.

If we don't believe the Bible is true, then there is no black or white, right or wrong, truth or lies, heaven or hell, good or evil...because without a compass to guide us, everything is relative to context only. Without faith in the goodness of the LORD, who incidentally happens to own this planet, we are like a helpless cork bobbing aimlessly on the ocean in a storm. With no compass and no map, its a journey with no destination, and no hope.

Most of Jesus' work was done one-on-one. That's our main job, too. To create religious denominations and other barriers that divide people works against the principles of the Kingdom of the LORD.

Have you noticed a difference now since you are no longer restrained with the church. Has your witness improved?

Questions:

Why don't you talk to your pastor about your feelings and thinking? Or have you already?

Do you have close friends in the local church? Who do you hang with?

Are you getting your views from the Bible? Or do you think it doesn't matter what the Bible teaches about it?

Doug,

If you have been reading carefully I have clearly stated that no one has a solution to the problem of suffering. So the absence of an all powerful god doesn't solve the problem.

My point is that Christianity doesn't solve the problem. And if you read the discussion throughout the ages you will find many great minds admitting to this fact.

And remember people are not the only source of suffering. I would think that the situation in Haiti in the news would make that rather prominent, unless you take Pat Robertson's view that they made a pact with the devil.

Shane,

The idea that god is on trial would make sense if god's behavior in the OT was better. If any Christian group could hold this trial of god to be true would be certain groups of gnostics because they believed the god of the OT was the devil and Jesus came to reveal a different way.

If we take the behavior of god in the OT, god has already lost this trial.

Doug,

I want to comment on your suggestion that god create people incapable of causing suffering.

This would have certainly avoided the suffering created by humans we have already.

And for those that would suggest this would restrict freedom of choice, I would point out that even if people were created to not want to create suffering, they would have choices to do many other things.

We don't have complete freedom of choice ourselves simply because we are not all powerful, nor do we have all knowledge. These serve to restrict choice. The only difference is which choices are restricted.

And in a more realistic analysis, cruelty and malicious intent are not required to create suffering. Ignorance is just as capable of creating suffering. It would appear that suffering is built into the fabric of this universe even without the presence of evil.

And who, but an all powerful god, would be responsible for this?