Marriage was divinely established in Eden and affirmed by
Jesus to be a lifelong union between a man and a woman in loving companionship. For the
Christian a marriage commitment is to God as well as to the spouse, and should be entered into
only between partners who share a common faith. Mutual love, honor, respect, and
responsibility are the fabric of this relationship, which is to reflect the love, sanctity, closeness,
and permanence of the relationship between Christ and His church. Regarding divorce,
Jesus taught that the person who divorces a spouse, except for fornication, and marries another,
commits adultery. Although some family relationships may fall short of the ideal, marriage
partners who fully commit themselves to each other in Christ may achieve loving unity through
the guidance of the Spirit and the nurture of the church. God blesses the family and intends that
its members shall assist each other toward complete maturity. Parents are to bring up their
children to love and obey the Lord. By their example and their words they are to teach them
that Christ is a loving disciplinarian, ever tender and caring, who wants them to become
members of His body, the family of God. Increasing family closeness is one of the earmarks of
the final gospel message. (Gen. 2:18-25; Matt. 19:3-9; John 2:1-11; 2 Cor. 6:14, Eph. 5:21-33;
Matt. 5:31, 32; Mark 10:11, 12; Luke 16:18; 1 Cor. 7:10, 11; Ex. 20:12; Eph. 6:1-4; Deut. 6:5-9;
Prov. 22:6; Mal. 4:5, 6.)

Just as baptism here on Earth is a token of the real bapitsm in the River of Life, so too is life-long marriage to one partner a token act. In the next life, though, there won't be husbands and wives because, according to Jesus, we will be like the angels, who apparently don't marry.

Instead, we will team up with the angelic being who recorded our own, unique, life history, then presented this information during Judgment Day. Following our resurrection, we will be little children, gaping in wide-eyed wonder at what lies before us.

Our mentor/trainer/teacher/companion will introduce us to our new life and guide us into our new role as servants of the LORD. We will never have another angelic companion because this relationship will last forever. That's why we must not leave our spouses in this life, but instead take good care of them despite their faults. Marriage on Earth is just training for permanent relationships in the life to come.

Where do you interpret the scriptures as saying that there will not be husbands and wives in the New Earth? The scriptures say "At that time there shall be neither marriage nor giving in marriage..............." Might be referring specifically to the Second Coming................................

Hi Gladusee,

I found this:

Maranatha (1976), page 308, paragraph 1
Chapter Title: Families will be Reunited
Thus saith the Lord; Refrain thy voice from weeping, and thine eyes from tears: for thy work shall be rewarded, saith the Lord; and they shall come again from the land of the enemy. And there is hope in thine end, saith the Lord, that thy children shall come again to their own border. Jeremiah 31:16, 17.


Christ is coming with clouds and with great glory. A multitude of shining angels will attend Him. He will come to raise the dead, and to change the living saints from glory to glory. He will come to honor those who have loved Him, and kept His commandments, and to take them to Himself. He has not forgotten them nor His promise. There will be a relinking of the family chain. The day of God will reveal how much the world owes to godly mothers. . . .

When the judgment shall sit, and the books shall be opened; when the "well done" of the great Judge is pronounced, and the crown of immortal glory is placed upon the brow of the victor, many will raise their crowns in sight of the assembled universe, and pointing to their mother say: "She made me all I am through the grace of God. Her instruction, her prayers, have been blessed to my eternal salvation."

With joy unutterable, parents see the crown, the robe, the harp, given to their children. The days of hope and fear are ended. The seed sown with tears and prayers may have seemed to be sown in vain, but their harvest is reaped with joy at last. Their children have been redeemed.

Oh, wonderful redemption! long talked of, long hoped for, contemplated with eager anticipation, but never fully understood. To His faithful followers Christ has been a daily companion and familiar friend. They have lived in close contact, in constant communion with God. Upon them the glory of the Lord has risen. In them the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ has been reflected. Now they rejoice in the undimmed rays of the brightness and glory of the King in His majesty. They are prepared for the communion of heaven; for they have heaven in their hearts.

Off topic (somewhat) but I don't know where better to post this question.

This is a serious question, not pertaining to me personally, but to the currently "looser" sexual mores of the postmodern generation.

My question: Where in Scripture do we find instruction that sexual intercourse be reserved only for marriage?

I realize it's not acceptable in the Adventist church to have sex prior to marriage, or outside of marriage -- but where in Scripture are we told that sexual activity between an unmarried man and an unmarried woman must never take place, under any circumstance?

Believe me, this question is not for myself. But I just listened to a tape of an Adventist Forum meeting in which John Brunt was the speaker. He told the experience he had with a young woman who wanted to be baptized, knew all the doctrines, and was so eager to take that step. So he scheduled her baptism for a certain Sabbath. While going with her ahead of time to show her the baptistry (to prepare her for what she'd feel and see when going into the water) she casually mentioned that her boyfriend would be there for the occasion. Then she mentioned that they'd been living together for a year, and planned to wait another year before marrying. But she clearly implied they were having a sexual relationship.

Dr. Brunt kindly told the woman at that point that the baptism would have to be postponed until after her marriage; that he could not baptize a candidate who was living in a sexual relationship without benefit of marriage.

I've never heard of that type of thing happening before, though I'm sure there is that rule in many churches. (It had just never occurred to me until I heard him tell this experience.)

As Dr. Brunt points out, in this current generation, there is often a 20-year time period between the time young people reach the age of puberty and the time when they are educationally and financially ready for marriage. Thus there is a lot of living-together going on, during that 20-year period. He said he himself could not condone that by baptizing that young woman, though he realizes that a lot of people who are already SDA are living together without benefit of marriage, it's just not being talked about.

I'd really like to know where in Scripture do we get the rule of no sex before marriage (or after widowhood, etc.)
Such a relationship would not be violating the Seventh Commandment ["Thou shalt not commit adultery"] because adultery is only when a married person violates his/her sexual marriage vows with someone not his/her spouse. My question refers only to unmarried persons.


Which leads me to comment: Sometimes at "that certain age" it would be more of a sin to marry than to live together. But that's a topic for another thread.

"While Israel was staying in Shittim, the men began to indulge in sexual immorality with Moabite women, who invited them to the sacrifices to their gods. The people ate and bowed down before these gods. So Israel joined in worshiping the Baal of Peor. And the Lord's anger burned against them. The LORD said to Moses, "Take all the leaders of these people, kill them and expose them in broad daylight before the LORD, so that the Lord's fierce anger may turn away from Israel."


"For out of the heart proceed evil thoughts, murders, adulteries, fornications, thefts, false witness, blasphemies:
These are the things which defile a man.."

Without quoting chapter and verses I believe that the Lord/God condemned fornication more than he did adultery...
Fornication - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia Open in New Window
Fornication is a term which refers to consensual sexual intercourse between two
persons not married to each other.

When wisdom entereth into thine heart, and knowledge is pleasant unto thy soul;
11 Discretion shall preserve thee, understanding shall keep thee:
12 To deliver thee from the way of the evil man, from the man that speaketh froward things;
13 Who leave the paths of uprightness, to walk in the ways of darkness;
14 Who rejoice to do evil, and delight in the frowardness of the wicked;
15 Whose ways are crooked, and they froward in their paths:
16 To deliver thee from the strange woman, even from the stranger which flattereth with her words;
17 Which forsaketh the guide of her youth, and forgetteth the covenant of her God.
18 For her house inclineth unto death, and her paths unto the dead.
19 None that go unto her return again, neither take they hold of the paths of life.

"For the lips of a strange woman drop as an honeycomb, and her mouth is smoother than oil:
4 But her end is bitter as wormwood, sharp as a twoedged sword.
5 Her feet go down to death; her steps take hold on hell."

"And why wilt thou, my son, be ravished with a strange woman, and embrace the bosom of a stranger? For the ways of man are before the eyes of the LORD, and he pondereth all his goings."

The term "strange woman refers to one who is NOT YOUR WIFE. Simple.. Premarital sex involves someone who is not your wife.

"To keep thee from the evil woman, from the flattery of the tongue of a strange woman.
25 Lust not after her beauty in thine heart; neither let her take thee with her eyelids.
26 For by means of a whorish woman a man is brought to a piece of bread: and the adulteress will hunt for the precious life."

these are great..

References, please?


And also, my question was not about consorting with "whorish women." My question was about two adult, mature, consenting, loving Seventh-day Adventists who, save for some external circumstances preventing them, would be entering into a lawful marriage.

Most are in Proverbs. Forgive me, I assumed each of us had a software Bible.


og

While most of us do, indeed, have a software Bible*, it is much easier to look these verses up in context with the proper documentation of where they are located. Else, each of these has to be searched with word parameters. It can be very frustrating. Please, cite the verses as you post them.

*For those without a software Bible, this link can be very helpful: BibleGateway.com.

Also, if you are interested in an online KJV Bible with Strong's reference numbers and Greek lexicon, try [url=http://www.e-sword.net/[/url]. You must download this, but it is well worth the time and effort. I have it on 3 separate computers and it works well!

Hi, Olger, I have to agree with Jeannie, that your verses do not fit this situation. This is not a man wanting to be sexual with a "strange woman", but a couple in love, but not married, and living in circumstances where apparently marriage is not possible.

I do not have an answer, and can only suggest that they, together, need to find God's answer to THEM in their circumstances.

Beryl

I picked this up the is morning on the internet..for what it's worth..

"Fornication is voluntary sexual intercourse between a man and woman who are not married to each other. Adultery is one type of fornication.

In every form, fornication was sternly condemned by the Mosaic law among God's people, the Israelites (Lev. 21:9; 19:29; Deut. 22:20-11, 23-29; 23:18; Ex. 22:16). (See ADULTERY.)

Fornication is also mentioned many times in the New Testament (Matt. 5:32; 19:9; John 8:41; Acts 15:20, 29; 21:25; Rom. 1:29; 1 Cor 5:1, 6:13, 18, 7:2; 10:8; 2 Cor 12:21; Gal 5:19; Eph 5:3; Col 3:5; 1 Thess. 4:3; Jude 1:7; Rev. 2:14, 20-21; 9:21; 14:8; 17:2,4).

"The Greek word for 'fornication' (porneia) could include any sexual sin committed after the betrothal contract. …In Biblical usage, 'fornication' can mean any sexual congress outside monogamous marriage. It thus includes not only premarital sex, but also adultery, homosexual acts, incest, remarriage after un-Biblical divorce, and sexual acts with animals, all of which are explicitly forbidden in the law as given through Moses (Leviticus 20:10-21). Christ expanded the prohibition against adultery to include even sexual lusting (Matthew 5:28)." (Dr. Henry M. Morris)

The word "fornication" is sometimes used in a symbolic sense in the Bible, for example, meaning a forsaking of God or a following after idols (Isa. 1:2; Jer. 2:20; Ezek. 16; Hos. 1:2; 2:1-5; Jer. 3:8-9)."

* 1 month ago

Source(s):
http://www.christiananswers.net/dictiona...

If they want to get married, what is stopping them?

They should remain celebate until married (delayed gratification is a divine principle).

Couples who are sexually involved prior to marriage bring ALL KINDS of problems into the marriage. It seriously damages the foundation of their marriage, and programs them all wrong.

Sorry if I misunderstood your earlier question.


oG

Jeannie:

Two comments:

1) The ancient Hebrew people made a distinction between adultery and fornication. They are not the same. It may be that one may commit the sin of fornication without committing the sin of adultery.

2) A few years back the REVIEW published an article by a Conference President (I Believe Norway, but may be wrong.) in which he stated that pastors in his Confernce allowed people living together (sexually involved) before marriage to join the SDA Church.

3) The Biblical issues of human sexuality are complex. This, in my thinking is partly due to the failure to distinguish between adultery and fornication. This failure may lead peole to decide that if it is not adultery it is not sin. In addition, the complexity stems in part from the issues that society faces in regard to human sexuality. These issues are reflected in the lives of our members.

Gladusee:

You said:

Taken quite literally, your statement is correct. However, I belive it might be misunderstood.

In the ancient Hebrew society engagement (betrothal) was very close to marriage. To break that engagement was considered to almost be what we would call a divorce today. From that standpont for an engaged couple to live together, and be sexually involved, was in my understanding not considered to be sinfull.

The plumbline for human morality is not Hebrew experience or custom, but rather the revealed will of God in His Word.

We are designed by God with a sexual capacity. That capacity is also designed to function exclusively in marriage. The union of man & wife illustrate the relationship between God and humanity. And, Jesus is not coming back to the earth for a harlot.

Our world has it wrong, and so do many of us when we argue for that which leads to death. There are three kinds of intimacy: Spiritual, Emotional, and Physical. The world has it backwards. It places the physical aspect first. It is paramount in literature, entertainment, advertising, music, and most of all, in the lives of those around us. God’s list is different. Spiritual, Emotional, Physical. In this order, the physical fulfillment is 10x better. Maybe 100x. May I invite you each of us to experience this order?

Sex outside of marriage is the same sin as adultery. In both cases, you are damaging your heart (the very center of your life) and the heart of the other person. You are wounding their spirit, and they yours. This damage will begin destroying the relationships that you have been given in your life. Unresolved moral failure, when brought into a marriage will eventually destroy that marriage from within. I can provide a whole series of living examples. (I had this to resolve in my own life, things prior to marriage). Immediately following moral failure, people will automatically experience consequences of guilt, shame and fear.

Another thing to consider, is that arousing each other on dates is very damaging. Why? Because you are teaching your spouse-to-be how to commit adultery. You are actually showing them how to do it. This also applies to couples who live together prior to marriage. They are teaching their partner HOW to commit adultery, by engaging in sex outside of marriage. Look around you. There are wounded lives on every street. When two damaged people marry, the only way they can get love is through the physical aspect. This leaves both of them unfulfilled spiritually & emotionally. Ask you wife (or husband) if she feels loved by you, 0-100% tonite. You may get some surprising answers. This will indicate a starvation in the emotional intimacy area. Don’t worry if you get some low answers. Email me and I will show you what to work on next.

There is hope!

There are at least nine ways that Satan attempts to destroy God’s purpose for sexuality in our lives:

Lust (pornography & fantasy)
Incest
Homosexuality
Rape
Adultery
Prostitution
Defrauding (arousing another’s sexual desires outside of a marriage relationship)
Fornication (general term for sexual promiscuity)
Bestiality

Violating these moral guidelines always brings negative consequences. This will lead to guilt, conflict, feelings of rejection, inability to show sympathy, lack of respect, lying, distrust, inability to communicate, and financial loss.

Emotional intimacy in a marriage cannot occur if there is unresolved moral failure from the past. Whatever it has been, it will affect one’s ability to love & respond to one’s spouse. For example, if a husband has not resolved his involvement with pornography he will be unable to emotionally love his wife above a 3% level, and she will feel unloved, used, and dirty, whenever they come together physically. However, when a husband resolves his moral sins and focuses every thought & desire upon his wife, they will experience oneness, and her negative feelings will disappear.

Moral failure is a spiritual sin. It is important to spiritually resolve each area of moral failure in order to be free from the consequences of past sin. When each area is acknowledged, and genuine repentance occurs in the heart, the result is that a person becomes free to live & love perhaps for the first time. Most couples go through marriage never knowing the joy & fulfillment that could be theirs if they were clean from the consequences of moral failure.


olger

In today's world there are a host of reasons that some people find it best not to marry although they wish to enter such a life together.

One thing off the top is $$$$ Finances. Some laws/agreements say that if you remarry, one would have to give up a guaranteed income or insurance.

One of my neighbors is living with her gentleman friend. Her first husband divorced her after he met a younger fancier woman. She is collecting a comfortable alimony. Her gentleman friend is along in years and if he was to die, there would be major financial hardships for her. Since she helped to put her husband through college and was married 35 years to the man before he bagan to wander....she feels justified.


In other situations there are chronic health problems. Or even children that fear that mom or dad is involved with a gold digger and they will miss out on their inheritance. While it would be wonderful to think that others share our same values, the tempter has his mitts in things all over.

While I am not saying that certain behavior is excuseable--it is not--reasons exist.

Perhaps I see and hear more since I live in Fl, but stories often cross my path each month. Unless a person is convicted by the Holy Spirit, the cannot nor will not see the occurance for what it really is.

And then there are those more mature who might like to be married but would lose all individual financial support by doing so.Perhaps the example cited above is one of these. Her alimony might stop if she were to remarry. Often the income of one party is not enough to support two.
At what point is it determined that "Living in Sin" is "Living in Sin"?

"At what point is it determined that "Living in Sin" is "Living in Sin"?"

At what point is it determined that it is not?

One point is that we are all living in sin. We live in it and participate in it.

I would point out this that Gregory quoted ...



I support the church doing this. Why? Because we all sin and fall short of the glory of God. We have no business withholding the water from those who desire to follow our Saviour. Turning one away due to 'holier than thou' judgmental reasons ... would only be a dis-service to the individual and to God.

Well I'd rather not step on this merry-go-around but...


Gospel light.
It seems light is the popular term in everything that has to do with less fattening foods. Light salad dressing , light margarine, light peanut butter. To make something light you leave certain things out and substitute. Less oil, more water. Less sugar, more artificial sweetener.

Some would like to do the same with the gospel. The terms are different but the concept is the same. Away with anything too heavy (obedience) and in with something lighter—like love and forgiveness (grace). By tipping the scales away from a balanced view you get gospel light.

Much of the professed Christian world have accepted a concept of Christian living that puts most of the emphasis on forgiveness of sin, acceptance and God’s understanding; all elements of grace. But the idea of needing to change out thoughts and actions to conform with a set of divine rules for living has often been relegated to negative territory called legalism.

What’s left is a gospel that includes forgiveness but does not require any conduct change. The emphasis is on relationships—and while having a relationship with Jesus is all important it is not something to be lift open to personal definitions. Gospel light is a carefree gospel with none of the sacrifice of having to change my lifestyle.

Trouble is, It does not exist.

While God is loving forgiving and merciful, and does want a close relationship with us, He also understands the nature of sin rather well. The heart of sin is selfishness, everyone doing what pleases themselves with little thought of how it impacts others. After Jesus forgives our sins he calls for us to make changes in our thoughts to harmonize with His (Romans 12:2).

Changing our behavior is hard work. It means denying ourselves some earthly pleasures, giving up some things we hold dear and at time being very out of sync with people around us (Romans 7:24). That is the full gospel that builds spiritual heavyweights.. It is a lifelong process of change made possible by the holy spirit—a process called obedience and sanctification (Ephesians 4:22-24). It is just as impossible for God to have a heaven of joy and peace with everyone doing things as they please as it is to have a peaceful earthly society without rules. I pay taxes according to the amount that I choose, I pay utility bills according to my own rates. I even drive by my own rules, knowing that the judge will always understand my excuses and forgive the fine. I steal a little, curse a little, lie a little, and commit a little adultery. Since the Law of God no longer applies to me, and I am under grace I am always forgiven, and there are no negative consequences. Sound ridiculous? Yet, this is exactly the philosophy I hear from some Christians.

Here is the Truth.

And now, just as you have accepted Christ Jesus your Lord, you must continue to live in obedience to Him. Let your roots grow down into Him and draw up nourishment from Him so you will grow in faith, strong in the truth you were taught. Let your lives overflow with thanksgiving for all he has done. See to it that no one takes you captive through hollow and deceptive philosophy, which depends on human tradition and from the evil powers of this world, rather than on Christ.

What constitutes a marriage? Isn't it two people in love, living together, sharing a full relationship including the sexual? Is the white dress and the church and the few thousand dollars really what makes it a marriage?

I think a lot of the problem that we're discussing here is not so much with a distorted idea of sex but with a distorted idea of what marriage is and means. The step is a huge one, but the point is that it should be emotionally huge and huge in relationship terms, not a huge financial burden.

If we worked toward (a) smaller, simpler, more deeply meaningful weddings and (b) much more support for marriages both pre and during, then there'd be a lot less of these hassles and issues. Most of the financial issues cited above are due to second and later marriages... if we worked hard at getting first marriages right they wouldn't arise.

Not trying to be utopian, but trying to look at the real question asked from a slightly different perspective.

Amen on the smaller simpler more meaningful weddings.


oG

Commitment.

How do we demonstrate that to each other and society? By a legal marriage. Why would two people not want to get married? Because they do not want to commit. Other examples I have seen listed here involve fraud. So is it ok to live in sin so a couple can defraud someone else or the government out of money? I would say that would be living in double sin. It would make the sin greater, not less.

Agreed. I was not arguing for less commitment, but more. What I *was* suggesting is that many of the impediments to marriage (other than those you accurately characterise) are not about commitment but about money. And that's just wrong. So we need to find better ways to do legal marriage that don't cost an arm and a leg.

Oh, and find ways to incentivize (!) marriage: or at least to avoid disincentivizing (!!) it. That is, apart from fraudulent situations, a person should not be made worse off financially by marrying.

Hmmmm... This thread has touched on many of the issues facing unmarried Christians these days. We can't settle all the problems. In fact, I tend to see the point of view of each of the posters, as I read this thread -- and they each portray their own cultural and generational outlook.

In other words, I believe the legality of marriage is principally cultural. In the U.S. it's a rather "black and white" situation --easily termed "sin"-- if two people choose to live together in a committed, sexual relationship without benefit of clergy. But in Europe [as someone else pointed out here], living together without marriage is quite common; at least I personally know of several such situations in a friend's family in Sweden. The unmarried couple, who have children together, is accepted just as readily in Sweden as is the married couple in USA in which the wife retains her maiden name.

And in such countries as Africa, when our missionaries go there to evangelize, they're torn between (1)requiring the baptismal candidates to divorce their superfluous (to Western thinking) wives before they can be baptized--or (2)accepting the new believers as they are, and baptizing all the wives together. Because, in that culture, to become a divorced wife would be to lose all social standing and all means of support--reducing the divorced wife to the status of a prostitute. When I was growing up, the policy was to require all "extra" wives to be divorced. Nowadays, however, the General Conference has changed the policy to allow baptism of all wives and accepting the families in their current status when they join the Adventist church. It became clear that we needed to adapt our doctrines where needed; Adventism is not a "lifestyle" religion, or an "Americans only" religion; it should be for all people.

In the U.S. the problem with some of the older widows/widowers is that they're living on their combined Social Security benefits, calculated on their late spouse's earnings added to their own; and if they were to remarry, their share of the late spouse's Social Security benefits would be lost. They'd end up with a lower income, along with acquiring another mouth to feed in the person of their new spouse.

Things begin to look different around age 65. It's impossible for any of us to sit in judgment of another person in this regard. We can trust God, and maintain a close relationship with Him, and then just use the good judgment He's given us, in deciding what best to do. I for one will never vote to censure anyone for living together with someone else without marriage. I've lived too long and have seen too many wonderful unmarried relationships which benefited both parties, to stick my neck out and make a judgment call about their lives. It's easy to spout off on the "rules" for behavior -- and I used every single one of those rules in raising my own children -- but sometimes we have to become flexible, at times when the nuclear family can no longer be maintained, due to death or divorce.

Idea...


A friend of mine says he went to a wedding and gave the Groom & Bride a letter. In the letter it stated that if they were still married in five years, he would buy them two gifts instead of the normal one he would have purchased for the wedding. They would receive the gifts on their anniversary.


I like that, what do you think?



oG

Definitely a cute idea, and a great way to get a couple thinking practically about the things they need to do to stay together for the long run.

How can the Spirit of Elijah prosper if there is not unity in the family?
If there is no respect for the siblings the sanctuary cannot stand.
Is there love in the church and is the preacher firm?
How many respect him and how many love him?
Should the welcome mat be spread even as family members return home?
Should the visitor rooms be always prepared?
Is there nourishment in the home, will Christ himself sit and dine?
How are the voices, do they speak to be heard or do the children speak loudly as if not heard?
Is no one listening and to whom are they talking to?
What can be explained to someone who isn't listening?

There is light on every door on every street as if there were light inside.
Where is the romance of the church, why is it not loved?
A leader is by definition a slave, children are not for profit.
What does it profit one to be in a family?
Is it worth striving for?
Is there such a thing as family or do we all just live nearby, are we only neighbors?
Look, nigh! Do we see a brother?
Some will come, some will go; even inside the family.
But do we really know each other because we are near?

Should we hide in the wilderness from our families?
Is there time for God in the church?
Almost as much as there is for love in the family.


read here

I believe in this doctrine from the Bible.