One of the gifts of the Holy Spirit is prophecy. This gift is an
identifying mark of the remnant church and was manifested in the ministry of Ellen G. White. As
the Lord’s messenger, her writings are a continuing and authoritative source of truth which
provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction. They also make clear that
the Bible is the standard by which all teaching and experience must be tested. (Joel 2:28, 29;
Acts 2:14-21; Heb. 1:1-3; Rev. 12:17; 19:10.)

These quotes are exactly why I avoid Atoday...

bevin, that link is dead.

This is VERY GOOD. "make the most of what we find helpful in her writings and leave the rest on the shelf"

Thank you for posting it.

I think we could all learn a lot about Ellen White if we put this to practice.

Ellen White is a Prophet ... she is not a perfect saint.

God has used all kinds of people to be prophets. He even used a Donkey .

The MAJORITY of Ellen White's writings are unauthorized. She did NOT want them printed. They were mostly "individual" counseling to INDIVIDUALS. She knew they would be abused if published for the general public. Yet that is what we have done. When her writings are not in context they are dangerous. They are clearly abused because of this.

If we had to read what ALL that the other prophets said in their entire lifetime ... we would be shocked and have to conclude that they said Many inaccurate things and that they clearly were not perfect saints. Well ... like all the others ... Ellen White was Fallible and human. Not all she said in her lifetime was inspired. She NEVER claimed to be infallible. She wanted us to check all that she said against the Bible and not study her in place of the Bible.

We as Adventists have to face up to the fact that Ellen White was not perfect. Not all of the prophecies from her visions came true. One of the tests of a Prophet is to check and see if the prophecies come true. Since some did not turn out as her visions indicated ... we have to conclude she was not always accurate.

So ... take what measures up to the Bible and throw out the rest. This was her counsel. Let us take her at her word.

Those who put too much trust in fallible, erring human beings will end up being disappointed or disillusioned when they realize they may have been scammed by a wealthy or persuasive self-promoting propaganda machine.

It's unfortunate that EGW's ministry began more like a circus act than a real prophet's ministry. (Holding up a heavy Bible for hours while holding her breath, proven by holding mirrors under her nostrils.)

Any one of us can read the scriptures and try to convince others that our explanation is correct. We could also concoct visions and angelic visits to assign more importance to our ideas and opinions. The most important thing is, not who said what about anything, but, did we conduct ourselves as faithful servants by doing whatever our Master commanded us to do as written in the scriptures. Nothing else matters, really, if our goal is to enter the Kingdom of God in the next life.

This is a quote from a letter I gave to someone who was tryin to convince me that there could be no more prophets....

The problem with your point of understanding is that a prophet is just someone that gets a revelation that is not in the Bible, verbatim. ALL Christians need such revelations. You claim that God would never tell a prophet, like E.G. White, to build a church here or a school there. But ask yourself, does God give you "extra-biblical" information; you seem to be someone who would pray to God and ask him whether you should move your family here or take a job there. Where in the Bible does it tell you to move your family here, are you a false prophet, then? ALL Christians need new revelations. It is called having a personal relationship with God! God will always give new revelations, because God will always give you revelations.

He responded by saying he would never ask God a personal question, like if a job was right for him, I think that was a lie he told, he usually told lies and made stuff up when he lost an argument.

Read full letter

I think we should rewrite No17 and cancel this sentence. Or at least the part in bold.

What is your objection to this? I certainly don't see any fault in it. There are many authors who would fit in to this classification. I would like to propose that George Knight and Jon Paulien for certain would qualify. Are they not an ongoing source of truth? Are they not an authority on the Adventist subjects they write about? No need to stop with the two I mentioned. But, like I say ... many would qualify under this statement. So, I don't find it offensive or exclusive at all.

The only problem I have with this statement is that it is not entirely true. When we say 'her writings are an authoritative source of truth' this implies that all her writings are an auth. source of truth. And some of her writings clearly do not fit in this category.

I also don’t understand your point about Jon Paulien. I do love his books and commentaries etc. but I don’t think it sounds right to say “The Bible is an authoritative source of truth” and “Jon Paulien is an authoritative source of truth”. And if you say “many would fit in to this classification” why then not mention them all and include them into our fundamentals?

My main concern is that we unnecessarily give non-Adventists the basis to attack this fundamental belief because it sounds that way, as if all her writings are a source of truth, and there’s just no need for this.

I don't follow how you believe the statement implies that ALL of her writings are truth. I don't see that in the statement. OTOH .... her writings are "a" SOURCE of truth. There are many sources that are truth. Many commentaries on the Bible state truth. They are called 'sources'.

You state that some of her writings do not fit the category and I assume you mean 'truth'. I would agree with you and I am most certain that Ellen White would also. She never claimed to be infallible. And she cautioned us not to use her as such. Her purpose was to 'point' us to Truth. We are to find 'truth' in the Bible. That is our job.

But our boy John uses her as the-end-all, be-all of truth. In his legalistic mind she IS the measuring stick of truth and he doesn't mind clobbering folks over the head with quotes from her little red books. That's traditional Adventism in a nutshell!

I believe her to have been a true prophet of God, which I know you do not; and so it stands to reason that I take her words more seriously than you do. When I read her words, I don't think that I know so much more than Ellen White. I pray that God will give me a teachable mind and attitude so that He can speak to me through her writings, just as I do when I read the Bible.

My thinking about Ellen White is in line with the beliefs of the Seventh-day Adventist church regarding Ellen White and the relationship between her writings and the Bible.

She is not the measuring stick of truth. We measure her writings by the Bible, and not the other way around. Never do we allow her writings to make corrections in the Bible. Joseph Smith made many so-called "corrections" in the Bible, and I am glad that we as Seventh-day Adventists have never viewed Ellen White's writings in that way.

I quote Ellen White to you because you yourself often quote her. If you believe in her as an authority enough to quote her, then I believe that I am also able to quote her.

I don't see quoting Ellen White as "clubbing people over the head with her little red books." If I did, or if I thought that is how people I'm talking to view her writings, I wouldn't quote her to them at all. I genuinely love her writings and don't feel the least bit of resentment or dislike of them.

I used to dislike them when I was a kid, so I can understand how some people feel who dislike Ellen White's writings. I know where those feelings come from. I know why people feel that quotes from her are like clubbing people. That is never my intention, and if I thought that is how people see it, I would never quote her or even refer to her. The same with the Bible-- if someone were to tell me they hate the Bible or feel it is like a club, I'd never speak of it to them.

But as long as you quote her to me, I'll feel it is right for me to quote her as well. It sounds to me as if you want special privileges to quote her but that you believe if I quote her, it is somehow "clubbing people over the head with her red books." If you really feel that her books are clubbing people over the head, I am willing to stop using her altogether in our exchanges, but that would mean you would need to stop using her also. I think you can see that it would be hardly fair for you to be able to quote or misquote her, and for me not to quote her at all.

Here's a few important paragraphs from Ellen White:

I think you can see that from the SDA viewpoint, there is something distinct and unique about Ellen White's writings. The very fact that it points to Ellen White in a way that it does not point to any other source of truth besides the Bible, and calls her writings "a continuing and authoritative source of truth which provide for the church comfort, guidance, instruction, and correction" shows that the statement of belief is distinguishing her writings from the writings of anyone else.

To say that her ministry and her writings are merely on a par with a good minister or pastor demonstrates that the writer has not fully grasped what is being said in the Fundamental Belief #16. It would be useful to study any book published by the Seventh-day Adventist church on the Gift of prophecy and see exactly how the church regards her writings. They are never simply put on a level with a minister or a talented writer or speaker.

Can you name anyone else in the history of the church since NT times who has received over 1000 dreams and visions from God, and was raised up and commissioned directly by Jesus Christ Himself to give messages to the end-time church?

Please take a close look at 1 SM 16-45.

Ellen's writings are on par with non-canonical prophets (ie. Nathan, Gad). They are inspired and inspiring.

That's the claim, but if all her writings are messages from God, well, God is a very confused Deity. I find some of her writings in harmony with the NT Bible writers and I find some of her writings in harmony with the Old Covenant. If it wasn't for those OC statements (and there are many) then she wouldn't be a problem for me.

Personally, I wouldn't recommend her books because there's too much confusion.

Rob

Agreed that some of her writings are as you have indicated.

Agreed.

But, I still recommend some of her books. I just don't recommend her books as a whole. I invite all to do as she said and to accept the good and throw out the bad according to the 'measuring stick' ... the Bible.

If you honestly did that you would have to say she has unintentional error, which in my book is okay since she didn't claim infallibility. But the minute I make that statement Traditional SDA will be ready to fight. Why? Because they have made her the end all, be all of truth. They have made her infallible. They follow her because they are too lazy to make the Bible their measuring stick of truth. They default to her because to them she is the sum total of truth. And don't try to convince me otherwise because I have seen it with my own two eyes. Been there, done that.

Ellen White refused to call herself a 'Prophet' . Instead she chose the term 'messenger'. This brings up the question ... Who is a messenger? Ellen White describes those in ministry as being the messengers:

"Why do some of our ministers manifest so little interest in health reform? It is because instruction on temperance in all things is opposed to their practice of self-indulgence. In some places this has been the great stumbling block in the way of our bringing the people to investigate and practice and teach health reform. No one should be set apart as a teacher of the people while his or her own teaching or example contradicts the testimony God has given His servants to bear in regard to diet, for this will bring confusion. Disregard of health reform unfits one to stand as the Lord’s messenger." BLJ 291

"God's chosen messengers, who are engaged in aggressive labor, should never be compelled to go a warfare at their own charges, unaided by the sympathetic and hearty support of their brethren. It is the part of church members to deal liberally with those who lay aside their secular employment that they may give themselves to the ministry. When God's ministers are encouraged, His cause is greatly advanced. But when, through the selfishness of men, their rightful support is withheld, their hands are weakened, and often their usefulness is seriously crippled." AA 340
"The displeasure of God is kindled against those who claim to be His followers, yet allow consecrated workers to suffer for the necessities of life while engaged in active ministry. These selfish ones will be called to render an account, not only for the misuse of their Lord's money, but for the depression and heartache which their course has brought upon His faithful servants. Those who are called to the work of the ministry, and at the call of duty give up all to engage in God's service, should receive for their self-sacrificing efforts wages sufficient to support themselves and their families." AA 340

"When God's messengers recognize their responsibilities toward the needy portions of the Lord's vineyard, and in the spirit of the Master Worker labor untiringly for the conversion of souls, the angels of God will prepare the way before them, and the means necessary for the carrying forward of the work will be provided. Those who are enlightened will give freely to support the work done in their behalf. They will respond liberally to every call for help, and the Spirit of God will move upon their hearts to sustain the Lord's cause not only in the home fields, but in the regions beyond. Thus strength will come to the working forces in other places, and the work of the Lord will advance in His own appointed way." AA 357


"He who gave back to the widow her only son as he was carried to the burial is touched today by the woe of the bereaved mother. He who wept tears of sympathy at the grave of Lazarus and gave back to Martha and Mary their buried brother; who pardoned Mary Magdalene; who remembered His mother when He was hanging in agony upon the cross; who appeared to the weeping women and made them His messengers to spread the first glad tidings of a risen Saviour--He is woman's best friend today and is ready to aid her in all the relations of life." AH 204

Yes. We are called to be His messenger to tell of the risen Saviour.

It is written that in the last days sons and daughters will prophesy and that young men shall see visions and old men dream dreams. These seem to mean not a single "spirit of prophecy" but a multiple outpouring. Is this still future in your opinion or was it a mistake?...mel

Why did Ellen White refuse to call herself a prophet? What reasons does she give?

She said that her work included that of a prophet but that her work was MORE than a prophet. She said also that the reason she didn't refer to herself as a prophet was to avoid being associated with misuses of the title and the word. Remember that she said she had no disagreement at all if people wanted to call her a prophet. Study 1 SM 17-40.

The verse had partial fulfillments in the second chapter of Acts, also partial fulfillment in the life and ministry of Ellen White. The promise is to be further fulfilled in the future, especially when the Latter Rain gives God's people the power to proclaim the Loud Cry.

It is possible for God to raise up more prophets, but all prophets of God will agree with each other. God doesn't inspire one prophet to say something that He later inspires another prophet to contradict.

Rev. 12:17 and Rev. 19: 10 show God will raise up a "remnant" just before Christ returns which will be characterized by at least two major identifying marks:

1) It will keep the commandments, or the law, of God.

2) It will will be blessed by God with a restoration of the gift of prophecy. Seventh-day Adventists believe this gift was manifested in the life and ministry of Ellen White.

Of course you are right. Ellen White will not be the last exhibition of God's outpouring of His Spirit. Look for more. There will be true prophets, and where there are true prophets, you may be sure there will also be false prophets.

The Remnant

Here's a sample:

Here we immediately face a problem. Normally, we have applied this word remnant to refer to the Seventh-day Adventist church. However, the Greek word John used does not refer to a church or a denomination, but rather a special people that are a part of the church, those who have reached maturity.

The remnant will never be any church as a whole, but a small portion of the church that is the same as the original church. It will have the identifyng marks of the true church--kssp the Sabbath and have the Spirit of Prophecy.

It doesn't matter what you call the group of people which God raised up in the middle to late 1800s. The point is that the book of Revelation points to a group that God raises up to proclaim the Three Angels Messages, and they have certain identifying marks. This group at the end of time, just before Christ returns, was predicted to arise just about the time the little-horn power receives its mortal wound, the earth-beast of REv. 13 is coming on to the scene of history; and this last-day group will be characterized by the keeping of the commandments of God and having the spirit of prophecy.

You will notice that Jack Sequeira also believes that this group in prophecy-- whatever name you call it-- is fulfilled in the Seventh-day Adventist church. God raised up the SDA church for the specific purpose of giving the three angeles messages of REv. 14. Both the gospel and the law of God were attacked by the little-horn power of Daniel 7 and 8. The Seventh-day Adventist church was raised up to restore the gospel and to tell the world the truth about the attempt to change God's downtrodden law.

Use of "remnant" in the book of Revelation:




Greek > Loipoy
The KJV New Testament Greek Lexicon
Strong's Number: 3062 Browse Lexicon
Original Word Word Origin
loipovß masculine plural of a derivative of (3007)

Loipoy None
Phonetic Spelling Parts of Speech
loy-poy' Adverb ("finally"-- Eph. 6:10)
Definition
remaining, the rest
the rest of any number or class under consideration
with a certain distinction and contrast, the rest, who are not of a specific class or number
the rest of the things that remain

King James Word Usage - Total: 41
other 15, rest 12, others 7, remnant 4, residue 1, which remains 1, other things 1

Jesus warned about the appearance of false christs and false prophets who would deceive many (Matt. 24:24). He did not warn His followers against receiving any christ, for He, the true Christ, would come. So He warned against receiving false christs. Similarly, He did not warn against receiving any prophet, but against receiving false ones, whom we would know by their fruits (Matt. 7:15, 16). The prophet Joel had predicted that in the time just before “the great and awesome day of the Lord,” when certain signs would take place in the heavens (darkened sun, and the moon becoming like blood), one should also expect the prophetic gift to be seen. And in Revelation 12:17 and 19:10, John would later foretell that the remnant of God’s true people, down at the end, would “keep the commandments of God and have the testimony of Jesus Christ,” which is “the spirit of prophecy,” the Holy Spirit bringing the prophetic gift again to God’s people.

“Surely the Lord God does nothing, unless He reveals His secret to His servants the prophets.” God would have a prophetic voice again, in preparation for the greatest event of the ages—the return of Jesus. That voice would help guide the people of God through the treacherous days at the end for their own salvation, and it would help them see how God wants them to tell others and bring them to Him as well. As John the Baptist helped prepare people for the first coming of Jesus, so God would use the gift of prophecy to help prepare people for Jesus’ second coming.

Seventh-day Adventists believe that Ellen G. White manifested that gift of prophecy. Her prophetic ministry came at the right time in the progression of events, according to the Scriptures. Her messages helped us to unify on correct Bible doctrines. She pointed out evils that needed to be corrected. God gave her instruction for the church about organization, about health, about publishing, about education, and many other topics that have helped to make our Christian living vibrant, our church strong, and our outreach effective. Most of all, she points us to our soon-coming Savior and Redeemer, urging us not only to “be diligent to be found by Him in peace” (2 Pet. 3:14) ourselves, but to use the time we have remaining to bring as many people as we can to know Jesus and honor Him in their obedient worship and daily living. God has used her to help prepare us for what will come. “Surely the Lord God will do nothing, but He revealeth His secret unto His servants the prophets.”

Yes. There will be many who are false christs and false prophets. It would be best if we kept our focus on Jesus and the Bible and not some future christ or prophet. I think the Bible has all we need.

But that group is not the remnant! Remember that the Jews were raised to usher in the Messiah. Were they the remnant?

Answer: Romans 11:1 I ask then: Did God reject his people? By no means! I am an Israelite myself, a descendant of Abraham, from the tribe of Benjamin. 2 God did not reject his people, whom he foreknew. Don't you know what the Scripture says in the passage about Elijah--how he appealed to God against Israel: 3 "Lord, they have killed your prophets and torn down your altars; I am the only one left, and they are trying to kill me"? 4 And what was God's answer to him? "I have reserved for myself seven thousand who have not bowed the knee to Baal." 5 So too, at the present time there is a remnant chosen by grace. 6 And if by grace, then it is no longer by works; if it were, grace would no longer be grace. 7 What then? What Israel sought so earnestly it did not obtain, but the elect did. The others were hardened, 8 as it is written: "God gave them a spirit of stupor, eyes so that they could not see and ears so that they could not hear, to this very day."



I'll agree with that...but which gospel? There are about 7 different gospels within Adventism.

I do believe in this doctrine from the Bible.

"The gift of prophecy" was argued for by Uriah Smith (Intro to Patriarchs and Prophets) and by C.F Cottrell (Intro to Spiritual Gifts vol 1) - was never "for one more prophet -- and her name is Ellen White".

But this is exactly how many SDAs today imagine the argument.

Rather they argued for the "continuation of spiritual gifts INCLUDING Prophecy" as an ongoing "contemporary" need. They never considered that deceased prophets from centuries gone by were the fulfillment of the argument that they were making.

I find that facinating.

In 2SM 57 Ellen White predicts that when God sends future prophets to the SDA church - our own leadership will reject them.

in Christ,

Bob

Good point.

in Christ,

Bob

How sad that your friend must turn away from God to defend his biased views against the Holy Spirit.

As for my views on what "the Bible tells us to do" in the case of Prophets.

I have posted that several times -- and a couple of people object strenuously to the texts presented.

Still I prefer the Bible on this point.


Including the Amos 3:7 part of the Bible
"Surely the Lord does nothing but He reveals His secrets to His servants the prophets".

Including the Prov 29 part of the Bible
"Where there is no vision the people perish"

Including the 1Cor 14:1 part of the Bible
"Desire earnestly spiritual gifts but especially that you may prophesy"

Including the 1Thess 5:19-20 part of the Bible
"Do not quench the Spirit. Do not despise prophetic messages"

Including the Matt 23 part of the Bible
"I will send you prophets".

Those who argue "just give me the Bible" but then feverishly oppose the bible statements above are in reality arguing for given me the Bible -- but not the words OF of the Bible.


in Christ,

Bob