#34198 - 2006-03-18 00:43:19
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Stephan]
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Craftsman
Registered: 2006-03-12
Posts: 3543
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Now, taking another look at homoiwmati . . . (neuter singular dative) The concept of 'exact copy' is fascinating. Compare Rom. 8:3 with Phil. 2:7. Here, Paul uses the word along with morpheev. if Christ was en morphee theou, in the form of God, and became en morpheen doulou, in the form of a servant, this suggests to me that indeed, the transformation was complete. This, and the use of homoiwmati--an exact copy, as opposed to being in the likeness of.
Well, then, how does this impact our understanding of the nature of Christ? I can't say that I agree with the Kittel article, insofar as the author's discussion of homoiwmati in Rom. 8:3. As Jim points out, the author starts out by saying that Christ was like man, but then he seems to say the opposite, insofar as 'the likeness of sinful flesh' goes. My particular concern is that I did not find much support stated for that position. Seemed like more of a homily. On what basis would the author so limit the meaning of the word in this occurrence? In fact, doing so would seem to disregard the etymology of the word and its usage in other literature. Ha! Once again, theology drives exegesis!
At any rate, that still leaves unsettled, the issue of exactly what it DOES mean--that Christ was a carbon copy of man--and not just man, but homoiwmati sarkos hamartias. Why do translations use the word 'likeness,' when the actual word is stronger than that? IOW 'God His own Son sending in a copy of sinful flesh.' At least, that is how it looks to me. Any thoughts about this?
David Koot
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#34199 - 2006-03-19 14:58:18
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Stephan]
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Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19639
Loc: CA
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Quote:
David Koot said:
Now, taking another look at homoiwmati . . . (neuter singular dative) The concept of 'exact copy' is fascinating. Compare Rom. 8:3 with Phil. 2:7. Here, Paul uses the word along with morpheev. if Christ was en morphee theou, in the form of God, and became en morpheen doulou, in the form of a servant, this suggests to me that indeed, the transformation was complete. This, and the use of homoiwmati--an exact copy, as opposed to being in the likeness of....At any rate, that still leaves unsettled, the issue of exactly what it DOES mean--that Christ was a carbon copy of man--and not just man, but homoiwmati sarkos hamartias. Why do translations use the word 'likeness,' when the actual word is stronger than that? IOW 'God His own Son sending in a copy of sinful flesh.' At least, that is how it looks to me. Any thoughts about this?
David Koot
I feel less than satisfied with the word "copy" as a description of Jesus Christ because it implies that Christ is (as the dictionary says) "an imitation or reproduction of something original; a duplicate..." That is because I believe the Son is as original as the Father.
Would it suffice to say that God sent his Son in a form as similar to sinful people as He possibly could without His Son also being sinful?
Perhaps it will interest you to know that Strong's Concordance gives #3667, homoloma, as "made like to, likeness, shape, similitude." The Geneva Bible, published 1602, has "...God sending his own son in the similitude of sinful flesh..."
One of the definitions the dictionary gives for the word "similitude" is "counterpart, double." Now counterpart means one that exactly resembles another.
In reference to Romans 8:3, it would mean that God sent his Son as exactly like sinners as possible except that Jesus never sinned.
Would it be too much to say, then, that God the Father sent His double, His counterpart-- God the Son-- to live among us and demonstrate the Father's character? Isn't that really what John 1:1, 14, 18; Phil. 2:6 and Hebrews 1:3 are telling us?
We can say, then, that Christ is the Father's double, His counterpart, or, as Colossians 2: 9 says, "in Him dwells all the fulness of the Godhead bodily." (God's New Covenant: "...in him there resides embodied all the fullness of God..") By the same token, as far as His humanity is concerned, Christ was (and IS forever, according to 1 Tim 2:5) as close to being our double, or counterpart-- indeed, our "brother," (Hebrews 2:11, 12, 17)-- as God could make Him, except for His being without sin. Jim
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#34200 - 2006-03-19 15:40:30
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Halfstep Denise]
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Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19639
Loc: CA
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Quote:
Stan Jensen said:
God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ... He lived and experienced temptation
as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God... (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19;
John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1
Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)
When I compare the above statement regarding Jesus' living and experiencing temptation as a human being, with what James 1: 14, 15 says about how people are tempted, I can only conclude that Jesus must have been tempted from within as well as from without; otherwise He would not have experienced temptation as a human being, or as I, experience it.
I do notice, however, that the sentence was (no doubt purposely) so worded that it's impossible to determine if it means Jesus experienced temptation as all humans do or if it means He experienced temptations as "a human being"-- (i.e., a single human, Adam)-- once experienced it.
(Note: James 1:13, "...God cannot be tempted by evil..." has reference to God in heaven and not to God in His incarnate state, otherwise it would contradict Scripture which says Jesus was tempted by Satan.)
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#34201 - 2006-03-20 00:21:32
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: proud2bsda]
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Craftsman
Registered: 2006-03-12
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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Quote:
John317 said:
Would it suffice to say that God sent his Son in a form as similar to sinful people as He possibly could without His Son also being sinful?
The description I am wrestling with is, "homoiwmati sarkos hamartias" This seems very clear. NOT merely the 'likeness' but 'homoiwmati,' as to which the etymology and usage in other literature indicates, 'exact copy.' (Kittel)
What complicates the question, for me, is the realization that Jesus Christ was different in an important respect: He did not have the PROPENSITY to sin that we have. Not merely, that He did not sin, He did not have the tendency or propensity to sin. Thus, I seem to see elements of Christ coming as the Second Adam, AND as 'homoiwmati sarkos hamarties' A mystery, indeed!
David Koot
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#34202 - 2006-03-23 10:46:23
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Stephan]
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Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19639
Loc: CA
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Quote:
David Koot said:
Quote:
John317 said:
Would it suffice to say that God sent his Son in a form as similar to sinful people as He possibly could without His Son also being sinful?
The description I am wrestling with is, "homoiwmati sarkos hamartias" This seems very clear. NOT merely the 'likeness' but 'homoiwmati,' as to which the etymology and usage in other literature indicates, 'exact copy.' (Kittel)
What complicates the question, for me, is the realization that Jesus Christ was different in an important respect: He did not have the PROPENSITY to sin that we have. Not merely, that He did not sin, He did not have the tendency or propensity to sin. Thus, I seem to see elements of Christ coming as the Second Adam, AND as 'homoiwmati sarkos hamarties' A mystery, indeed!
David Koot
You are quite right in saying Jesus Christ did not have a propensity, or tendency, to sin. But then neither do we have to continue having the propensity to sin. Through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, we also may overcome sin just as Jesus overcame sin. There have been many people who have overcome sin and no longer lived with the propensity to sin: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter, John the Beloved, etc. Those who are sealed with the seal of God and live through the time of trouble to see Jesus return will also overcome sin as Jesus did and no longer have the propensity to sin but will be so settled into the truth that they, like Jesus, can't be moved.
Christ didn't need to be "born again," or "born from above," as all other humans need to be in order to see the kingdom of God (John 3:3). Before he emerged from his mother's womb, Christ was already under the guidance of the Holy Spirit. He was Holy from the start. Jesus' propensity, or tendency, was to obey His Father. That was Jesus' "bent."
On the other hand, before we are born again, our tendency is to disobey or rebel against God. We gain the tendency, or propensity, to obey God when we experience the second birth through the Holy Spirit.
Jesus did come as the second Adam. That is, Jesus came to replace Adam as the federal head of humanity, the Representative Man-- showing what God's ideal for mankind is and showing what man is capable of becoming.
However, none of the above necessarily means that Jesus did not have a fallen nature. After all, Enoch had a sinful nature, yet he overcame sin and got to the point where he no longer had the propensity to sin. God has provided the way for us to have the same experience today. Jim
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#34203 - 2006-03-23 12:02:55
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: proud2bsda]
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Craftsman
Registered: 2006-03-12
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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Quote:
John317 said:
But then neither do we have to continue having the propensity to sin. Through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, we also may overcome sin just as Jesus overcame sin. There have been many people who have overcome sin and no longer lived with the propensity to sin: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter, John the Beloved, etc. Those who are sealed with the seal of God and live through the time of trouble to see Jesus return will also overcome sin as Jesus did and no longer have the propensity to sin but will be so settled into the truth that they, like Jesus, can't be moved . . . We gain the tendency, or propensity, to obey God when we experience the second birth through the Holy Spirit . . . After all, Enoch had a sinful nature, yet he overcame sin and got to the point where he no longer had the propensity to sin. God has provided the way for us to have the same experience today.
Hmmmm . . . That is different than I had thought. I have understood that we will still have sinful flesh, still have that fallen nature, still have that propensity to sin, to war against, until Jesus comes, and we receive new natures and new bodies. Yes, by God's grace, with His help, we will be overcomers, but we will have those tendencies to sin, to war against, until the day Jesus comes. The alternative would seem to me, to be a type of 'holy flesh' experience. Am I misunderstanding this?
David Koot
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#34204 - 2006-03-23 20:23:35
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Stephan]
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Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19639
Loc: CA
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Quote:
David Koot said:
Quote:
John317 said:
But then neither do we have to continue having the propensity to sin. Through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, we also may overcome sin just as Jesus overcame sin. There have been many people who have overcome sin and no longer lived with the propensity to sin: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter, John the Beloved, etc. Those who are sealed with the seal of God and live through the time of trouble to see Jesus return will also overcome sin as Jesus did and no longer have the propensity to sin but will be so settled into the truth that they, like Jesus, can't be moved . . . We gain the tendency, or propensity, to obey God when we experience the second birth through the Holy Spirit . . . After all, Enoch had a sinful nature, yet he overcame sin and got to the point where he no longer had the propensity to sin. God has provided the way for us to have the same experience today.
Hmmmm . . . That is different than I had thought. I have understood that we will still have sinful flesh, still have that fallen nature, still have that propensity to sin, to war against, until Jesus comes, and we receive new natures and new bodies. Yes, by God's grace, with His help, we will be overcomers, but we will have those tendencies to sin, to war against, until the day Jesus comes. The alternative would seem to me, to be a type of 'holy flesh' experience. Am I misunderstanding this?
David Koot
We will, of course, have "sinful flesh" right up to the Second Coming. I'm not talking about any sort of "holy flesh" idea at all. I am only talking about what the Bible itself says in such verses as 1 John 3:6, 9, 10, 24; 5:3-5; Galatians 5:16, 25; Romans 6: 12-15; 8:1-14; 2 Peter 1:3,4; Jude 24. The basic message of those verses is that that we need not live according to the sinful flesh but that by God's grace we can become partakers of the divine nature and our lives controlled by the Holy Spirit.
You might look up Propensity in the Ellen White Index and see how she uses that word. You will see that she says that we need not retain one sinful propensity (7 BC 943), and that Christ can strengthen us to "fully overcome" "evil propensities" (5 T 335). Also see GC 484-491 and PP 84-89.
Among those pages are these sentences: "The godly character of this prophet [Enoch] represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be 'redeemed from the earth' (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ's second advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God's people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ." (PP 89) Jim
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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#34205 - 2006-03-24 10:31:23
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: proud2bsda]
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Craftsman
Registered: 2006-03-12
Posts: 3543
Loc: N38d14.516m, W122d37.982m
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Quote:
John317 said:
The basic message of those verses is that that we need not live according to the sinful flesh but that by God's grace we can become partakers of the divine nature and our lives controlled by the Holy Spirit.
It is true that we need not live ACCORDING to the sinful flesh. However, we still have it, until the day Jesus returns. When we accept Christ, the new birth takes place, a new life begins, the spiritual life. We can, by our choices, strengthen that growing spiritual life, and choose it as the direction of our life. Yet, we still have the old nature to war against. Eternal life, the Father's new name, the tree of life, etc., all are promised to the overcomer. There will be battles with self to fight, right up to the day Jesus returns in the clouds. I seem to recall reading words by EGW, to that effect. The alternative, bottom-line, would have to be that we become holy. But, there was only one holy person who ever walked on this earth--Jesus Christ. We can, by God's grace, develop Christlikness in our characters, in the choices we make, but we never will be holy as Jesus was holy. The most we can do is to "reflect" Christ in our daily lives.
Actually, I think this is a good topic for discussion. I am going to start a thread, and look forward to the responses.
David Koot
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#34206 - 2006-04-01 01:32:39
Re: 4. The Son:
[Re: Stephan]
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Registered: 2005-11-12
Posts: 19639
Loc: CA
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Even though Jesus Christ as a man did not have a single evil, sinful propensity, yet Jesus was born with a fallen, sinful nature like his ancestor David, and like his mother, Mary.
Is the fact that we, unlike Christ, are born with sinful propensities to disobey God offer us an excuse to sin? No. Why not?
Please consider the following: "We need not retain one sinful propensity... As we partiake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good..." (7 BC 943). It would be helpful to read that entire page as it contains much that is of importance for understanding the subject we're discussing here.
Ellen White wrote that "Jesus alone can strengthen" us "to fully overcome" our "evil propensities." (5 T 335) But she also never ceased to remind her readers of the daily spiritual battles against temptations they must wage.
Without question we will have sinful natures and temptations and sin to resist right up to the moment that we are translated at the Second Coming.
But will we be sinning at that time? No. "When He [Christ] leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor" (GC 614). Those who are translated will have "fully overcome their evil propensities" through "Christ alone". We, like Enoch before his translation, will fully reflect the likeness of Christ (PP 89).
"Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble." (GC 623)
Study Jude 24; 1 John 3:1-10; and 2 Peter 1:3-9. Col 1:19 says all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ. Ephesians 3:19 says that human beings also "may be filled with all the fullness of God."
It seems clear to me that we don't realize the possibilities and the amazing potential that God offers us. Jim
_________________________
Turning and turning in the widening gyre/ The falcon cannot hear the falconer;/ things fall apart; the center cannot hold; Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world... Surely some revelation is at hand;/Surely the Second Coming is at hand. W.B. Yeats
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