Yes, if you look at Romans 4:11, you will find that it says, "And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." (TNIV).

Romans 4: 3-6 also speaks of that righteousness that is "credited" to us. Are you unfamiliar with this? You speak of it as if it is something new to you. I am sorry but I am using perfectly good New Testament language. You will find the Greek word translated "credited" on page 379 of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon. It is Strong's # 3049. Ellen White also uses the word, "credited." I can hardly believe you are would fault with something that occurs with such frequency in Saint Paul's writings.





Yes, you and I are perfectly righteous "in Christ" because we have accepted God's gracious gift of Christ and His perfect righteousness. That is exactly what I have been saying.

The word "credit" is only used in NIV

Others read: ...6 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works....

The fact is God doesn't "credit" us anything. This isn't some "credit" we get for something we have done. We are saved through faith, but faith is not the Savior. By accepting Christ, He represents us literally "in Himself". It's reality!

To understand this you must understand the gospel.

Robert

"To understand this you must understand the gospel."

Are you implying that those who don't see things as YOU see things ... don't understand the gospel. Is it your way or the high way ??

I think there is room for each Christian to study and come to different comclusions even under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

OR Do you have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit ??

If you would kindly take the time to look up these things in Greek-English lexicons and in English dictionaries, you would find that to "credit" something is the same thing as "account," "impute", etc.

It doesn't sound as if you even looked up my references in Thayers or p. 477 of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon or any other standard lexicon. In all due respect, Robert, you've got to do some basic study of this, and you obviously haven't done it, yet (forgive me if I am wrong) you frankly give the impression that you think you know everything. I do very much like your spirit and your sense of conviction and certainty, though. IMHO they just have to be tempered a bit with meekness and a consciousness of the possibility that you might be mistaken.

By the way, [b]the NIV is not (as you claim) the only translation that translates logizomai as credit. I have found it used in the New American Standard and in the Amplified, the first two translations after NIV that I checked. I am positive that if I looked further, I would find it in at least 25 more. I will do so if you like. [/b]You would also find this word used in a number of standard systematic theologies if you have access to any. See, for instance, p. 726 of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology where he discusses the meaning of justification and being credited or accounted or reckoned as righteous. Please do yourself the favor of looking up these words in the Bible, in about five different translations, and also studying how Ellen White uses them in the first volume of Selected Messages where she writes at length about Justification. God bless. John

Let me quote Paul:

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. 10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel. 12 For I [Paul] did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.


What does Paul say concerning the gospel?

Rom 6:6 "we know that our old self [old life] was crucified with him [Jesus] so that the body of sin might be done away with...."

Rom 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law in the body of Christ...."

Col 1:13 For He [Jesus] delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus....

You see the law demands YOUR death, not Christ's! Substitution as taught in Christian circles is illegal and unethical. But the true gospel teaches that "in Christ" you died because the law demanded your death. And "in Christ" your glorified humanity was taken to heaven where Jesus represents you before God's law perfect in every detail. Any other gospel is a false, legalistic gospel and is to be condemned.

Robert

Is the gospel you present the one Paul presented many years ago or have you been teaching what your church taught you? I'll tell you straight out that the true gospel was rejected in 1888. To a large degree Adventism for the past 119 years has been wandering in the wilderness. They have been, like so many others, preaching a perverted gospel.

When this church accepts the true gospel it will cause "a shaking". Those who remain will bear the same fruit as the early church. Let's look at this:

Acts 2:43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. ....32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul [no division in the church]; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

So when you read, "Here are those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" this "commandment keeping" is referring to the same selfless love of God and not the keeping of the letter of the law. It will be the result of "THE CHURCH" preaching the same gospel as taught by the early Christian church.

One day, Ellen G. White asked her angel, “What will be the shaking? What will bring about the shaking in this church?”

The angel said to Ellen G. White, “It will be the straight testimony of the Laodicean Message.”

Do you know what the Laodicean message is? Revelation 3:17-18:

You say, “I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.” But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

“Buy from Me white raiment.” The word “buy” means “exchange”; it means giving up your self-righteousness in exchange for Christ’s righteousness. If you don’t believe me, please look at Philippians 3:9, where Paul gave up his righteousness in exchange for the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith. Philippians 3:8-9:

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them but dung, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

After Ellen G. White makes that statement, she made a statement to the ministers. It’s found in Testimonies to Ministers, pages 64-65. But this truth applies to you, also. Regarding the shaking, she says this is what will cause the shaking, the presentation of Christ our Righteousness - THE GOSPEL:

“They [i.e., these ministers, who are self-righteous, who are depending on their righteousness, or even on what God does in them] are not willing to be deprived of the garments of their own self-righteousness, they are not willing to exchange [that’s what the word “buy” means] their own righteousness, which is unrighteousness, for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure, unadulterated [no mixture] truth.”

The Jews made two mistakes. Must we repeat those mistakes? Why can’t we look at the history of Israel and say, “Lord, please deliver us from the same mistakes.”

Let us never get the idea that because God has given this church wonderful truths that we are better than the other Christians. We don’t have that monopoly. Why did God give it to us? I can’t answer, except that he’s sovereign. Not because we deserve it.

And please remember, there’s only one way God has promised to save all mankind, and that is in His Son Jesus Christ. You can’t buy Him, you can’t earn Him. The only way that righteousness can be yours is by faith, by saying like the Publican said when he prayed, “God forgive me, a sinner. I am depending entirely on your mercy, on your righteousness, on your gift, Jesus Christ.”

May God help us that we learn from the mistake of the Jews, and not repeat it, is my prayer in Jesus’ name.

Robert, for you to quote this -- and reading your attitude as expressed in these posts -- pardon me, but I do not SEE and HEAR this "selfless love of God". I hear someone who just has to have the last word. Please take the time to read what you have written -- not the words, but the attitude, and tell me -- can you hear the love of God reflected?

Beryl

No one is being selfless as Christ now. However, when the remnant is formed (after the true gospel is preached) the result will be a people who are reflecting Christ's selfless agape love.

Rob

EGW says: "The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, thereto maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciplkes embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained in with his body in the sepulcher, and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from heaven." 3SP204
Does "Deity" have life and intelligence? If so then "Diety" slept in the sepulcher with his body.