God the eternal Son became incarnate in Jesus Christ. Through Him all things
were created, the character of God is revealed, the salvation of humanity is accomplished, and
the world is judged. Forever truly God, He became also truly man, Jesus the Christ. He was
conceived of the Holy Spirit and born of the virgin Mary. He lived and experienced temptation
as a human being, but perfectly exemplified the righteousness and love of God. By His miracles
He manifested God’s power and was attested as God’s promised Messiah. He suffered and
died voluntarily on the cross for our sins and in our place, was raised from the dead, and
ascended to minister in the heavenly sanctuary in our behalf. He will come again in glory for the
final deliverance of His people and the restoration of all things. (John 1:1-3, 14; Col. 1:15-19;
John 10:30; 14:9; Rom. 6:23; 2 Cor. 5:17-19; John 5:22; Luke 1:35; Phil. 2:5-11; Heb. 2:9-18; 1
Cor. 15:3, 4; Heb. 8:1, 2; John 14:1-3.)

I don't see here anything that makes it clear whether Jesus had a fallen, sinful nature or whether he had the nature of Adam before the Fall. It seems to me that is very important. Perhaps it is stated in another section but it seems that it should be here.

Ahh yes, Jim, the nature of Christ. Quite an interesting and, indeed, important question. Well, you are quite a scholar. What do you find to be taught in Scripture? For example, in Romans 8:3. Any insights from the Greek?

Thanks for the complement, but I don't consider myself a "scholar" unless you only have in mind the archaic meaning of student.
I believe the answer to your question may be determined by a careful study of what both the Bible and Ellen White have to say about the human nature of Christ.
While a theology student at LLU, I believed that Jesus's human nature was the same as Adam's before the fall. Since that time, however, as I've studied, I've become persuaded that Jesus had a fallen human nature. That is, I believe that although Jesus had a fallen human nature, yet He never once sinned in either thought or action. He overcame sin with the same power of the Holy Spirit that you and I have access to in order to overcome. (See Rev. 3:21)
But did Jesus have any advantage over us in His experience of overcoming sin? Yes, I believe He did. First, Jesus never had to undergo conversion or the new birth, because he was born with the Holy Spirit already in His life. Second, Jesus never had sinful habits to overcome like we do.
The primary Biblical sources for my beliefs on this subject are John 1:14; Romans 1:3; 8:3; Hebrews 2:14-18; cf. Hebrews 4:15; 5:2; James 1:14,15.
Romans 1:3 says that the Son was "descended from David according to the flesh." What flesh? Fallen flesh, of course, because it is the only flesh that David and his descendents had. It's the same flesh you and I have. It seems to me that the geneologies of Jesus as given in Matthew 1 and Luke 3 show us that Jesus was a real human being with all the inherited tendencies with which human beings are born. Hebrews 2:16 says, "He had to be made like his brethren in every respect" (RSV).
Also John 1:14: "And the word became flesh..." Again what kind of flesh? No doubt the same flesh that Mary, his mother, had-- fallen.
(Remember it was in order to avoid this truth that the Roman Catholic Church invented its doctrine of the Immaculate Conception, which Adventists do not believe in because it is a lie based on tradition and not on Holy Scripture.)
Next, I believe that a comparison of Hebrews 4:15 and James 1:14, 15 shows that since Jesus was truly tempted in all points as we are, He must have have been tempted "from within" the same way that James says all of us experience temptation.
I believe that a close study of the following writings of Ellen White confirm the view that Jesus came to live among us with a fallen human nature: DA 49, 117, 131; SG vol. 4, pages 115, 116; MM 181; 1 SM 95, 267-268; MH 7; 7 BC 926; Review and Herald 2-24-1874; FILB 114; ST 177. (For a complete listing of Ellen White's comments on this subject, see The Word Was Made Flesh by Ralph Larson.)
The Bible Readings For the Home Circle (1915), page 174, reads: "In His humanity Christ partook of our sinful, fallen nature..." It was changed following the death of Ellen White.
Here's how 52 translations have rendered the Greek words of Romans 8:3 ...en homoiomati sarkos hamartias... "in likeness of flesh of sin..." (There are no varients in the Greek text.)
1) "... in the likeness of sinful flesh..." KJV, NASB, NAB, RSV, NRSV, ASV, KJ II, Lamsa's, Rotherham's, Lattimore's, RY Literal, Jay Green's Literal, New Berkeley, NT in Modern English, Jay Adam's, A.S. Worrell's, Confraternity.
2) CEV--"...to be like us sinners..."
3) Christian Standard Bible--"...in flesh like ours under sin's dominion..."
4) NIV-- "...in the likeness of sinful man..."
5) New International Readers' Version-- "...to be like those who have a sinful nature..."
6) Laubach's Inspired Letters-- "..in flesh like our sinning flesh..."
7) Complete Jewish Bible-- "...as a human being with a nature like our own sinful one..."
8) New Jerusalem Bible-- "...in the same human nature as any sinner..."
9) New Century-- "...with the same human life that others use for sin..."
10) God's Word--"...to have a human nature as sinners have..."
11) Revised English Bible-- "...in the likeness of our sinful nature..."
12) 21st Century-- "...with a nature resembling our sinful nature..."
13) TEV (1976)--"...with a nature like man's sinful nature..."
14) Alfred Dewes' Translation of Romans (1866)-- "...in the likeness of the flesh in which sin dwells..."
15) Free Paraphrase by Jack Sequeira-- "...uniting the divine nature of His Son, at the incarnation, to our corporate sinful human nature that needed redeeming and in that humanity Christ assumed, which was identical to ours, the principle or power of sin was both defeated and executed."
16) Clear Word--"...Jesus took on human nature and demonstrated by the power of the Holy Spirit that sin can be overcome."
17) Charles William's-- "...in a body similar to that of our lower nature..."
18) God's New Covenant (Cassiner)-- "...in a form like that borne by our own sinful nature..."
19) The New Translation (1990)--"...having a body like our sinful bodies..."
20) Bible In Basic English-- "...in the image of the evil flesh..."
21) Goodspeed-- "...in our sinful physical form..."
22) Emphatic Diaglott (Translated by B. Wilson)--"...in a form of a flesh of sin..."
23) Amplified and Moffatt-- "...in the guise of sinful flesh..."
24) Darby's Holy Bible-- "...in the likeness of flesh of sin..."
25) Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English-- "...in the likeness of a sinful body..."
26) Byington's Bible in Living English-- "...in the likeness of sinning flesh..."
27) The Unvarnished NT (Andy Gaus)-- "...in the fleshly likeness of sin..."
29) Letters From Paul (Blackwelder)-- "...in the likeness of sinful nature..."
30) Wuest's Expanded Trans.-- "...in likeness of flesh of sin..."
31) R.A.Knox (Catholic)-- "...in the fashion of our guilty nature..."
32) J.B.Phillips'-- "...in that human nature which causes the trouble..."
33) Weymouth (3rd edition, 1909)-- "...in a body like that of sinful human nature..."
34) Weymouth (4th edition, 1929, James Robertson ed.)-- "...in the form of sinful humanity..."
35) The Message-- "...took on the human condition, entered the disordered mess of struggling humanity..."
For those interested in how the NT elsewhere uses the Greek word here usually translated "likeness," please see Romans 6:5 and Phil. 2:7. Similar Greek words also occur in James 3:9 and Acts 14:11.
The following quote from the pen of Ellen White shows the importance and relevance of this topic for Seventh-day Adventists with our unique understanding of the Great Controversy theme and the High Priestly ministry of Jesus:
"Satan claimed that it was impossible for human beings to keep God's law. In order to prove the falsity of this claim, Christ left His high command, took upon Himself the nature of man, and came to the earth to stand at the head of the fallen race, in order to show that humanity could withhstand the temptations of Satan. He became the Head of humanity, to be assaulted with temptations on every point as fallen human nature would be tempted, that He might know how to succor all who are tempted. On this earth He worked out the problem of how to live in accordance with God's standard of right. Bearing our nature, He was true to God's standard of righteousness, gaining the victory over Satan. he was tempted in all points like as we are, yet He was without sin." The Upward Look, page 172.
There are of course SDA and others who will not agree with my analysis of what the Bible and Ellen White teach on this subject, and I invite their comments and criticism. Jim

Thank-you, Jim, thank-you. You have posted a real tour-de-force, which I shall enjoy perusing over the next several days. This is truly exciting and enjoyable. You have made my day, by posting this. I am MOST anxious to look into 'homoiwmati.' I really appreciate your listing the comparative translations. It seems to me that the crux of the issue has to do with the meaning of homoiwmati (homoiwma). Kittel has an excellent 13 page article, written by Herr Schneider, in v. 5, begining on p. 186. As I recall, Schneider does good work.

I will respond as soon as I have had a chance to look into this.

Best regards, Dave

Here is some info from Kittel. The word itself is "what is made similar," "copy." The word . . . ALWAYS HAS THE CONCRETE SENSE OF 'COPY' RATHER THAN THE ABSTRACT SENSE OF LIKENESS OR CORRESPONDENCE." (Kittel, v. 5, p. 191)

Bingo!!!! THAT is what I was looking for! Here, then, is a key in understanding Paul's intent in this verse. A copy, in the concrete rather than the abstract. Here is some further commentary from Kittel (pp. 195, 196):

"In R. 8:3 Paul says that God sent His Son into the world in the form of sinful flesh . . . He is emphasizing that Christ was really man. He bore a physical body fashioned according to the human body which is infected with sin. In outward form He was in no way different from other men. But Paul does not say that he came en sarki hamartias. With his en homoiwmati Paul is showing that for all the similarity between Christ's physical body and that of men there is an essential difference between Christ and men. Even in Hihs earthly life Christ was still the Son of God. This means that He became man without entering the nexus of human sin. The words en homoiwmati keep us from a deduction which Paul did not wish to make, namely, that Christ became subject to the power of sin and did in fact sin. For Paul Christ is sinless. Sin, which clung to the physical body He assumed, had no power over Him. The homoiwma thus indicates two things, first the likeness in appearance, and secondly the distinction in essence. Why did God send His Son into the world in the form of sinful flesh? Paul answers: with this body the intrinsically sinless Christ became the representative of sinful mankind. Hence God, by giving up Christ to death, could condemn sin by destroying His body, and thus cancel it. Christ took the likeness of sarx hamartias in order that God in Christ might achieve the liberation of mankind from sin."

Well, Jim, what think you of the foregoing?

Dave

The essential question for me is, was Jesus "really man" as all men are or as only one man was before the Fall? Kittel writes that "Christ was really man" but then he apparently says Christ was not like us in the most fundamental feature, that of our sinful nature. It seems to me that if Christ did not have our sinful nature, He could not have known temptation as we know it. And therefore, if that were the case, Jesus did not overcome sin as we must overcome it. And if Jesus did not overecome sin as we must overcome it, how then can we say he was made like his brothers in every respect and that he is truly able to sympathize with the struggles of sinners fighting against sinful desires?
To say that Jesus had a sinful nature is not the same as saying that "Christ became subject to the power of sin" or that he sinned. Christ was sinless, certainly, and saying He had a sinful nature does not in any way detract from His sinlessness. It is not sin to be powerfully tempted-- even if that temptation comes from within our own sinful nature. To have a sinful nature does not require God's forgiveness because our sinful nature itself is not sin. What is sin is the giving in to sin, that is, surrendering our will to it. Christ never did that, and the reason He did not do it is that He resisted it by the power of the Holy Spirit.
For instance, did Jesus know experientially what it was like to resist the desire to do what He knew was against His Father's will? That is, did the thought ever come into His mind to do something wrong? Christ had a natural desire to follow his human inclinations, but He resisted those desires. Christ immediately rejected the thought and never coveted it or dwelt on it. Instead, Christ prayed that the Father's will would be done in all things. He completely submitted Himself to God.
Christ not only merely appeared to be a real man-- He actually was 100% a real man.
Well, what is the essential nature of a real man? Isn't it that it is sinful?
What makes him vulnerable? Isn't it that he has a sinful nature?
What makes him in need of a mediator and a Savior? Again, isn't it his sinful nature?
Yes, Christ was indeed sinless, of course! But He was not sinless because His human nature was essentially different from our own human nature. "He was made like his brothers in every respect," just as the Scripture says, and it is because He was in all points tempted like as we are that Christ as our High Priest is well able to sympathize with us now in our weaknesses. He was sinless because He overcame sin by the same power that is available to you and me. Jesus really could have sinned. Christ's temptations were real and not make-believe. That is how Christ became the representative of sinful mankind and how He achieved our liberation. It was by taking on Himself our sinful nature, yet without sinning, that Jesus became the author and leader of our salvation.
God did not condemn sin by destroying Christ's body but rather by Christ's demonstration that through the dynamite/power of God's indwelling Spirit, people with sinful natures really can resist and overcome sin. Jim

Now, taking another look at homoiwmati . . . (neuter singular dative) The concept of 'exact copy' is fascinating. Compare Rom. 8:3 with Phil. 2:7. Here, Paul uses the word along with morpheev. if Christ was en morphee theou, in the form of God, and became en morpheen doulou, in the form of a servant, this suggests to me that indeed, the transformation was complete. This, and the use of homoiwmati--an exact copy, as opposed to being in the likeness of.

Well, then, how does this impact our understanding of the nature of Christ? I can't say that I agree with the Kittel article, insofar as the author's discussion of homoiwmati in Rom. 8:3. As Jim points out, the author starts out by saying that Christ was like man, but then he seems to say the opposite, insofar as 'the likeness of sinful flesh' goes. My particular concern is that I did not find much support stated for that position. Seemed like more of a homily. On what basis would the author so limit the meaning of the word in this occurrence? In fact, doing so would seem to disregard the etymology of the word and its usage in other literature. Ha! Once again, theology drives exegesis!

At any rate, that still leaves unsettled, the issue of exactly what it DOES mean--that Christ was a carbon copy of man--and not just man, but homoiwmati sarkos hamartias. Why do translations use the word 'likeness,' when the actual word is stronger than that? IOW 'God His own Son sending in a copy of sinful flesh.' At least, that is how it looks to me. Any thoughts about this?

David Koot

Quote:

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David Koot said:

Quote:

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John317 said:

But then neither do we have to continue having the propensity to sin. Through the indwelling power of the Holy Spirit, we also may overcome sin just as Jesus overcame sin. There have been many people who have overcome sin and no longer lived with the propensity to sin: Enoch, Elijah, Moses, John the Baptist, Peter, John the Beloved, etc. Those who are sealed with the seal of God and live through the time of trouble to see Jesus return will also overcome sin as Jesus did and no longer have the propensity to sin but will be so settled into the truth that they, like Jesus, can't be moved . . . We gain the tendency, or propensity, to obey God when we experience the second birth through the Holy Spirit . . . After all, Enoch had a sinful nature, yet he overcame sin and got to the point where he no longer had the propensity to sin. God has provided the way for us to have the same experience today.

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Hmmmm . . . That is different than I had thought. I have understood that we will still have sinful flesh, still have that fallen nature, still have that propensity to sin, to war against, until Jesus comes, and we receive new natures and new bodies. Yes, by God's grace, with His help, we will be overcomers, but we will have those tendencies to sin, to war against, until the day Jesus comes. The alternative would seem to me, to be a type of 'holy flesh' experience. Am I misunderstanding this?

David Koot

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We will, of course, have "sinful flesh" right up to the Second Coming. I'm not talking about any sort of "holy flesh" idea at all. I am only talking about what the Bible itself says in such verses as 1 John 3:6, 9, 10, 24; 5:3-5; Galatians 5:16, 25; Romans 6: 12-15; 8:1-14; 2 Peter 1:3,4; Jude 24. The basic message of those verses is that that we need not live according to the sinful flesh but that by God's grace we can become partakers of the divine nature and our lives controlled by the Holy Spirit.

You might look up Propensity in the Ellen White Index and see how she uses that word. You will see that she says that we need not retain one sinful propensity (7 BC 943), and that Christ can strengthen us to "fully overcome" "evil propensities" (5 T 335). Also see GC 484-491 and PP 84-89.

Among those pages are these sentences: "The godly character of this prophet [Enoch] represents the state of holiness which must be attained by those who shall be 'redeemed from the earth' (Revelation 14:3) at the time of Christ's second advent. Then, as in the world before the Flood, iniquity will prevail. Following the promptings of their corrupt hearts and the teachings of a deceptive philosophy, men will rebel against the authority of Heaven. But like Enoch, God's people will seek for purity of heart and conformity to His will, until they shall reflect the likeness of Christ." (PP 89) Jim

Even though Jesus Christ as a man did not have a single evil, sinful propensity, yet Jesus was born with a fallen, sinful nature like his ancestor David, and like his mother, Mary.

Is the fact that we, unlike Christ, are born with sinful propensities to disobey God offer us an excuse to sin? No. Why not?

Please consider the following: "We need not retain one sinful propensity... As we partiake of the divine nature, hereditary and cultivated tendencies to wrong are cut away from the character, and we are made a living power for good..." (7 BC 943). It would be helpful to read that entire page as it contains much that is of importance for understanding the subject we're discussing here.

Ellen White wrote that "Jesus alone can strengthen" us "to fully overcome" our "evil propensities." (5 T 335) But she also never ceased to remind her readers of the daily spiritual battles against temptations they must wage.

Without question we will have sinful natures and temptations and sin to resist right up to the moment that we are translated at the Second Coming.
But will we be sinning at that time? No. "When He [Christ] leaves the sanctuary, darkness covers the inhabitants of the earth. In that fearful time the righteous must live in the sight of a holy God without an intercessor" (GC 614). Those who are translated will have "fully overcome their evil propensities" through "Christ alone". We, like Enoch before his translation, will fully reflect the likeness of Christ (PP 89).

"Satan could find nothing in the Son of God that would enable him to gain the victory. He had kept His Father's commandments, and there was no sin in Him that Satan could use to his advantage. This is the condition in which those must be found who shall stand in the time of trouble." (GC 623)

Study Jude 24; 1 John 3:1-10; and 2 Peter 1:3-9. Col 1:19 says all the fullness of God was pleased to dwell in Christ. Ephesians 3:19 says that human beings also "may be filled with all the fullness of God."

It seems clear to me that we don't realize the possibilities and the amazing potential that God offers us. Jim

To that I say:

Quote John317:

"How was Jesus able to overcome? Because He had a different nature than we have? No. He overcame the same way we must overcome. Rev. 3: 21. By faith in God and in His power."

I agreed the first part of what you said. He had the same nature as us through His mother Mary. But I disagreed that He overcame the same way we must overcome because:

1. Jesus was born of the Holy Spirit, unlike us, He had no human father.
2. If we could overcome the same way He must overcome, then we do not need a Saviour.
3. God did not have to send His Son to die on the Cross for the human race.
4. Genesis 2:17 would be meaningless.
5. We are saved by the grace of God only through Jesus Christ's merit in overcoming sins.

VERY WELL SAID Yongttay.

Thank you.

Wow...and I missed this? Anyway....

1] Never, never say that Christ HAD a fallen nature - a sinful nature. As God He was sinless in thought, deed and nature. However, the humanity that He assumed did have a fallen nature for it was our humanity after the fall. We must separate Christ as God and Christ as the Son of Man.*

2] The statement, "He overcame the same way we must overcome" is legalistic. We are not under law and therefore we are not expected to be perfect. That's the whole reason Christ took our humanity. Yes, as we see the love of God a change begins, not in our nature, but in our mind. This leads to growth, but to say we must overcome as Christ overcame is legalism.

Notes *

“In Christ were united the divine and the human--the Creator and the creature. The nature of God, whose law had been transgressed, and the nature of Adam, the transgressor, meet in Jesus--the Son of God, and the Son of man.” [SDA Bible Commentary Vol 7, 926]

Let me give you a non-Adventist Author who understands the gospel. He is referring to this passage:

Romans 8:3 For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh

"The intention behind the use of 'likeness' here was to take account of the fact that the Son of God was not changed into a man, but rather assumed human nature while still remaining Himself. On this view the Greek word used has its sense of 'likeness'; but the intention is not in any way to water down the reality of Christ's fallen human nature, but to draw attention to the fact that, while the Son of God truly assumed fallen human nature, He never became fallen human nature and nothing more, but always remained Himself....We understand Paul's thought to be that the Son of God assumed the selfsame fallen human nature that it ours, but that in His case that fallen human nature was never the whole of Him - He never ceased to be the eternal Son of God." [Romans - A Shorter Commentary - C.E.B. Cranfield, pp 176-177]

By the way, both Jones and Waggoner made this same point in 1888.

The problem with saying that Christ HAD a sinful human nature makes Him a sinner under the curse!

Would you like some proof?

Okay:

"Surely I [David] was sinful at birth, sinful from the time my mother conceived me." [Ps. 51:5]

Since David didn't even have a developed brain to be tempted with at conception, he had to be speaking of his nature alone that made him sinful.

“What is man, that he should be pure, Or he who is born of a woman, that he should be righteous?" [Job 15:14]

If you are born of a woman then you are not righteous. You are sinful....Why? Because through mom you received Adam's life that is under the curse. See Romans chapter 5.

"...we too all formerly lived in the lusts of our flesh, indulging the desires of the flesh and of the mind, and were by nature children of wrath, even as the rest." [Eph 2:3]

"By nature" alone we are children of wrath....

Now what happened to Christ as Man when He was born of a woman?

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 in order that He might redeem those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

What was born under the condemnation of the law? Our humanity, or Christ's Divine life? Right, our humanity, which Christ assumed. He became what He was not by native right - sin!

Proof?

Okay:

"For he [God the Father] hath made him [Jesus as God] to be sin [Jesus as man] for us, who knew no sin [as God]; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him." [2 Corinthians 5:21]

But, thanks be to God, "God sent forth His son, made…under the law, to redeem them that were under the law." Galatians 4:4,5. By His coming He brought redemption to every soul who is under the law. But in order perfectly to bring that redemption to men under the law, He Himself must come to men, just where they are and as they are, under the law.

And this "was made." He did, for he was "made under the law;" He was made "guilty;" He was made condemned by the law; He was "made" as guilty as any man is guilty who is under the law. He was "made" under condemnation as fully as any man is under condemnation because of his violation of the law. He was "made" under the curse as completely as any man in the world has ever been or ever can be under the curse. For it is written: "He that is hanged ["on a tree"] is accursed of God." Deut. 21:23.

The Hebrew makes this stronger still, for the literal translation is: "He that hangeth on a tree is the curse of God." And this is exactly the strength of the fact respecting Christ, for it is written that He was "made a curse." Thus, when He was made under the law, He was made all that it means to be under the law. He was made guilty; He was made condemned; He was made a curse.

But bear in mind forever that all this He "was made." He was none of this of Himself, of native fault, but all of it he "was made."... [The Consecrated Way to Christian Perfection, chapter 5]

Quote Robert:

"1] Never, never say that Christ HAD a fallen nature - a sinful nature. As God He was sinless in thought, deed and nature. However, the humanity that He assumed did have a fallen nature for it was our humanity after the fall. We must separate Christ as God and Christ as the Son of Man."


I am confused at what you are trying to say. Are you saying that Jesus had two natures: Being the Son of God, He had a sinless nature. Being the Son of Man, He had a sinful nature. May I ask you a question. Was Mary a biological mother or a surrogate mother of Jesus?

There is only One Jesus - the Son of God. The humanity He assumed for 33 years, was our humanity.


-BC- 7BC
-TI- S.D.A. Bible Commentary Vol. 7
-CN- HEB8
-CT- Hebrews
-PR- 03
-PG- 927

By His obedience to all the commandments of God, Christ wrought out a redemption for man [mankind]. [How?] This was not done by going out of Himself to another, but by taking humanity into Himself. [What type of humanity?]….To bring humanity into Christ, to bring the fallen race into oneness with divinity, is the work of redemption.





[/quote]

Robert,

You have not answered my questions. Every one in this forum know that there is only One Jesus, I did not ask you that.

Again, Jesus is God and when God the Father blended Him with our humanity in Mary's womb, Jesus took upon His sinless nature, our sinful fallen nature. It wasn't His, it was ours....

"Christ did in reality unite the offending nature of man with His own sinless nature...." [17MR, 26]

Here's another way to look at this mystery. When you became a believer the Holy Spirit (the 3rd person of the God-head) came to live in you. So you have the Holy Spirit and Yongttay in one body, right?

Now does the Holy Spirit (who is in you) have a sinful nature? NO! Does Yongttay? Yes! The Holy Spirit tabernacles in you, He doesn't become you. Likewise you do not become the Holy Spirit. You have a sinful nature and the Holy Spirit, by residing in you, assumes that nature, but it is not His.

Is that clear?

Rob

Robert:

"So you have the Holy Spirit and Yongttay in one body, right?"

So there are two persons in my body. I am a twinity, right?

Oh help! It is clearly error.

1 Cor 6:19 "do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you...?

John 4:24 "God is spirit"

So you say. Disprove me!

He took upon Himself fallen, suffering human nature, degraded and defiled by sin.....He united humanity with divinity: a divine spirit [Christ] dwelt in a temple of flesh [our humanity]. He united Himself [as God] with the temple [our humanity]. (YI Dec. 20, 1900)

“He [Christ as God] voluntarily assumed human nature. He clothed His divinity with humanity." [7ABC 446]

Quote Robert:

-----------------------------------------------------------------

Originally Posted By: yongttay
Robert:

"So you have the Holy Spirit and Yongttay in one body, right?"

So there are two persons in my body?


1 Cor 6:19 "do you not know that your body is a temple of the Holy Spirit who is in you...?

John 4:24 "God is spirit"

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I know you have been doing your best to prove your point, but you have not answered my question: Was Mary a surrogate mother or a biological mother of Jesus?


If Mary was a surrogate mother of Jesus, I would have agreed with you that Jesus was never a human and did not have a sinful nature. Being born of a woman, He assumed the sinful human nature. He remained as God or the Son of God and thus had a sinless nature.

If Mary was a biological mother of Jesus, then He was a human and inherited the sinful human nature through Mary. Since He was conceived by the Holy Spirit with no human father, He was known as the Son of God. Having Mary as His biological mother, He was known as the Son of Man.

That would make Jesus as sinner!


When the voice of the angel was heard saying, “Thy Father calls thee,” He who had said, “I lay down my life, that I might take it again,” “Destroy this temple, and in three days I will raise it up,” came forth from the grave to life that was in Himself. Deity did not die. Humanity died.... [5 SDABC, 1113]

Again, "God is Spirit". Jesus is God. The Bible calls Him the Son of God. That's who He is, period!!!

On the cross Jesus as the Son of God did not die. As EGW says, "Deity did not sink and die; that would have been impossible". What died is our humanity!!!! It wasn't Christ's humanity - no, it was our humanity. Why?

The law requires death to the sinner, so no matter how you look at it our humanity had to die. And it did "in Christ:! It, our humanity, died in the humanity Christ assumed at the incarnation.

More later....

Rob

When Christ became a man, He actually became what He was not. The sinful nature He assumed was not His by native right, but something He took upon Himself, or was made to be in order to redeem it. As Ellen White says, “He took upon His sinless [divine] nature our sinful [human] nature, that He might know how to succor those that are tempted” (Medical Ministry, p. 181). The words “shared in” or “took part” [Hebrews 2:14] and the word “likeness” [Romans 8:3] carry the same connotation as the word “made.”

Scripture teaches that Christ actually did assume our condemned sinful human nature as we know it. But He totally defeated “the law of sin and death” [Romans 8:2] that resided in that sinful human nature and then executed it on the cross. Had Christ consented, even by a thought, to the sinful desires of that nature which He assumed, then He would have become a sinner in need of a savior Himself. That is why, in dealing with the human nature of Christ, we must be exceedingly careful not to drag His mind or His choice into sin or to say that He “had” a sinful nature.

When Christ, the second person of the Godhead, was made flesh and became the Son of Man, He “made himself nothing,” “humbled himself,” in order to represent the humanity He came to redeem [Philippians 2:6-8]. What did this actually involve? Clearly, in order to be our Saviour, Christ placed His entire being, along with every divine prerogative or power, entirely into the hands of the Father. He willingly, voluntarily made Himself a slave to the Father. The Father, in turn, took Christ and placed Him in the womb of Mary through the Holy Spirit [see Luke 1:26-35].

This meant that Christ still retained His divinity, but He gave up the independent use of that divinity while living on this earth as our representative and substitute. That is why the Scripture says that, as a child, Jesus grew in wisdom [see Luke 2:40, 52], something that would not have been possible had He retained His divine prerogatives. As a man, He declared that He could do nothing apart from the Father [see John 5:19, 30; 6:57]. He had to live on this earth as men have to live: totally dependent on God by faith alone.

Therefore, for Christ, as God, to become like us, He had to empty Himself completely of all His divine prerogatives. Only then could He be made in all points like as we are and qualify to be our Saviour and Substitute.

My view of what the Bible says is that Jesus was born with the same fallen nature as we are born with. The only difference is that Jesus was born full of the Holy Spirit so that he did not have to have a "new birth" or be converted. Nor did Jesus ever have to overcome bad habits. Jesus knows what it is like to struggle with temptations the same as we do. That could not be if he was never tempted from within, because that is where most of our really strong temptations come from.

Where some people go wrong is to think that it is a sin to be tempted. It is not. It is only a sin to disobey God. It is not a sin to be tempted to sin. Jesus was tempted in all points as we are, yet Jesus never sinned. Whenever sinful desires came to mind, he immediately cast them off and prayed for the Holy Spirit for strength. We may do the same. There is nothing he had available to him to overcome sin and temptation that we don't have.

Jesus came to demonstrate that man, empowered by the Holy Spirit, can obey God's law. He also came to show that Adam need not have sinned. Satan claims that God made a law that man cannot obey. Thus Satan accuses God of unfairness and injustice. Satan claims that people cannot obey God's law. Jesus proved otherwise. Jesus demonstrated that sinful man, when connected with God's power, can obey God. Adam had an advantage over Jesus because Jesus underwent much stronger temptations than Adam had to undergo, and Jesus underwent them when he was not only weak and hungry but after humans had been in a fallen state for thousands of years.

You mean that Jesus as God ASSUMED the same fallen nature?



In other words from birth His mind was controlled by the Spirit so that He didn't give into the desires of His assumed nature. However the humanity that He assumed, even though He never allowed to sin, was in and of itself sinful. Yes, in performance Jesus never sinned, but the nature He assumed was sinful and therefore that corporate life had to die.



That statement leads to legalism. Actually Jesus came to save mankind from the law!

Gal 4:4 But when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth His Son, born of a woman, born under the Law, 5 in order that He might redeem [save] those who were under the Law, that we might receive the adoption as sons.

Gal 3:23 Before the faith [Jesus] came, we were held prisoners by the law, locked up until the faith [Jesus] should be revealed. 24 So the law was put in charge until Christ that we might be justified by faith. 25 Now that faith has come, we are no longer under the supervision of the law.

Romans 7:6 But now we have been delivered from the Law, having died to that by which we were bound [see verse 4], so that we serve in newness of the Spirit [i.e., grow] and not in oldness of the letter.

-BC- 2SM
-TI- Selected Messages Book 2
-CN- 3
-CT- The Holy Flesh Doctrine
-PR- 03
-PG- 33

When human beings receive holy flesh [a life free from indwelling sin or what Paul calls "the law of sin"], they will not remain on the earth, but will be taken to heaven. While sin is forgiven in this life, its results are not now wholly removed. It is at His coming that Christ is to "change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body" (Phil. 3:21). . . .

Again, there's only one Jesus. Let's go to Hebrews chapter 10 verse 5:

Therefore, when He comes into the world, He says, “Sacrifice and offering Thou hast not desired, But a body Thou hast prepared for Me....

The "Me" refers to Jesus as the Son of God. "A body" refers to what the Son of God dwelt in through the incarnation. That body (our humanity) was prepared for Him in the womb of Mary. It wasn't His by native right.

Let's say you reached a point where you never sinned in deed, thought and action. Also let's discount your past sins. Would you be allowed to enter heaven with your fallen nature? Paul says no:

1 Cor 15:50 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption. 51 Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep [remain dead], but we shall all be changed, 52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. 53 For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.....

If you can't take your sin nature to heaven with you then it in and of itself must be sin and under the curse of the law.

Checkmate! :)

Robert

That is what is taught by people who believe we no longer need to obey God's law. That is antinomianism, a teaching that is opposed to the Bible's teaching.

Jesus came in order to save us from, not in, our sins. He came to help us so that we need not continue to be enslaved to our sins.

Jesus came to demonstrate that sinful man, when in connection with God's Spirit, can live in perfect obedience to God's will. That is, that people can live in conformity to God's will. That is the same as saying that God gives people power to overcome sin. Remember that the Bible says that God's will is His law.

Obedience to God per se is not legalism. Was it legalism for Jesus to obey the Father? Legalism is the perversion of the law in order to earn one's way into God's favor. The New Testament is full of verses that call upon us to obey God and His laws. We take Jesus as our role model. Jesus, unlike Adam, always obeyed God. We are not to obey God in order to gain His favor but we obey God because we love Him as our Savior who delivered from slavery to sin unto the freedom of righteousness, or right-doing-ness, and holiness.

I think you must be misunderstanding what I am saying. What I am talking about with regards to Jesus has nothing whatever to do with holy flesh. I don't believe anyone has "holy flesh." I am almost constantly aware of sin in my flesh. That is why I need Jesus with me every moment of every day. The point is that Jesus keeps me from falling for those temptations. It is His power that does this, not my own. I submit my will to Him and ask him moment by moment to keep me. But I have to make the decision and I have to give God my permission for His Spirit to live in me. I live by Jude 24 and some similar promises such as 2 Peter 1 and 1 Cor. 6:9-11.

Let's see if I understand you and if we can come to some agreement on this: I agree that there's only one Jesus. But Jesus had two natures, a fallen human nature and a divine nature. I believe Jesus was 100% Deity and 100% human. Both natures were in the one man, Jesus Christ. When the divine nature of Jesus did something, it was all of Jesus doing it; when the human nature of Jesus did something, it was also all of Jesus doing it.

The human nature of Jesus Christ inherited the DNA of Mary and all of her ancestors, including Adam and Abraham, Rahab, David, and all the other sinners in his ancestoral line. That is one of the reasons for Jesus' geneoloy being given. If Jesus Christ's DNA had been tested, it would be seen that He was related to Mary, a righteous young woman who had a fallen nature the same as ours.

Why do you think Jesus was under the curse of the law? Because even though he did no sin, Jesus voluntarily took our sin on himself in order to suffer God's curse or wrath against sin. Jesus had our sins credited to Him and He was treated for our sakes as if He had committed our sins, the same way we have Jesus' righteousness credited to our accounts and are treated as if we had never sinned and even as if we had done all of Jesus' righteous acts. That is the exchange that is made when in repentence and faith we put our complete trust in Jesus as our personal Savior and as the Owner and Master of our lives.

The verse you quoted simply makes the point that before people enter heaven, we must receive a glorified (incorruptable), sinless, body like Jesus' glorified body. We have a mortal body at the present time, just as Jesus' body was mortal prior to His resurrection; but we will be given a new, glorified body before we are translated.

Interestingly there is no record of either sinful Enoch or Elijah receiving a sinless body before they were taken to heaven. That is the main reason that "Jehovah's Witnesses" deny that either of those saints ever did go heaven.

When we see His face we are changed.

Right! Only then are we "perfect" in thought, deed and nature. Until then we "fall short".

Robert

So you are denying that your sinful nature, in and of itself, makes you a sinner? David rejects this, if that's what you are saying. So does Paul. And even more, Jesus rejects this....



Credited? In other words it was make believe? Jesus really didn't take upon Himself our fallen, sinful humanity? Look, the law demands your death! Christ's death instead of your does not answer the demands of God's law. The law says, "The soul that sins it must die." If your old life did not actually die then you are still under the curse and there will be no heaven for you.



I am actually perfectly righteous "in Christ"! Otherwise I wouldn't stand a chance.


Robert

Jesus didn't have a human nature. Why is this so hard to comprehend? Jesus remained Himself. Yes, He handed over to His Father the independent use of His divinity and walked in our fallen, humanity from birth to death. He only knew He was God in human flesh via His Father.

Jones, Waggoner and EGW taught that Jesus didn't HAVE a sinful nature. It was not His. He assumed it in order to redeem it.

Now a question concerning this denial that our sinful nature makes us sinners apart from our own personal sins.


If an infant dies before he is born (say at 8 months) does that infant need a savior? Why?

Do you actually think that you are obeying as Christ obeyed while in human flesh?

Let me give you EGW:

"Our earthly life, however long, honored, or useful it may be, is but childhood, frail, imperfect, and undeveloped. Manhood, with its full, perfect, glorious development, will come, when, freed from the taint of sin [indwelling sin], we stand among the redeemed throng. Then we shall enjoy a life which measures with the life of God, and through everlasting ages we shall go on increasing in wisdom and knowledge."

There are many others....I am not denying growth, but perfection - never this side of eternity. Even the 144,000 (God's remnant) will still be saved by faith alone. Yes, they will mature to the point that they are not sinning, but their nature still makes them a sinner plus before that maturity they had a pile of sins.

Hey ... Do I qualify for the 144,000 perfection !!

I haven't sinned for the past two seconds.

I really don't see how it matters that a group of people will go for some unknown period of time without sinning. Big Deal.

It happens all the time NOW. It will still do them NO GOOD.

Sinful by nature apart from the outward transgression of the law:

Ps 51:5 Surely I [David] was sinful at birth, [then he reaches back further] sinful from the time my mother conceived me.

Nope...you and they (future) are still sinful by nature. Besides, if you really study Christ's life you come to the realization that Christ's every thought was not for Himself, but rather the humanity that hated Him. He lived...no...His ambition was outward (never inward). He lived not for Himself. Can you say that of yourself? Can you say that your overwhelming ambition in life is not for yourself, but for others. That's how Christ lived His spotless life. That's also why He was homeless. He was too busy loving the world. There was no self-love in His life. This is where all of us fail. We might keep the letter of the law, but the spirit demands that we love your neighbor as we naturally love self. Instead of thinking of yourself...your needs, your education, what you need and what you desire, try living like Christ in every detail. That's perfection.



Actually, by stating that you just sinned! :)

"If we say we have not sinned, we make him a liar, and his word is not in us"

Of course you are joking....You very funny man...Ha, ha, ha...



That group will perfectly understand the love of God. They understand the gospel perfectly. All is lost for the cause of Christ. They are literally without. They are totally dependent on God and, as the Bible says, "they loved not their lives unto death." Like their Master, they are willing to give up heaven instead of harm a hair of their enemies. They have fully matured. This work proves that the gospel they present is genuine. Hence it will draw other in Babylon to Christ and salvation by faith alone. It is used as a witness and is therefor demonstrative instead of meritorious.

Robert

The gospel I present is genuine because of who I know NOT what I do.

Yes, if you look at Romans 4:11, you will find that it says, "And he received circumcision as a sign, a seal of the righteousness that he had by faith while he was still uncircumcised. So then, he is the father of all who believe but have not been circumcised, in order that righteousness might be credited to them." (TNIV).

Romans 4: 3-6 also speaks of that righteousness that is "credited" to us. Are you unfamiliar with this? You speak of it as if it is something new to you. I am sorry but I am using perfectly good New Testament language. You will find the Greek word translated "credited" on page 379 of Thayer's Greek-English Lexicon. It is Strong's # 3049. Ellen White also uses the word, "credited." I can hardly believe you are would fault with something that occurs with such frequency in Saint Paul's writings.





Yes, you and I are perfectly righteous "in Christ" because we have accepted God's gracious gift of Christ and His perfect righteousness. That is exactly what I have been saying.

The word "credit" is only used in NIV

Others read: ...6 just as David also speaks of the blessing upon the man to whom God reckons righteousness apart from works....

The fact is God doesn't "credit" us anything. This isn't some "credit" we get for something we have done. We are saved through faith, but faith is not the Savior. By accepting Christ, He represents us literally "in Himself". It's reality!

To understand this you must understand the gospel.

Robert

"To understand this you must understand the gospel."

Are you implying that those who don't see things as YOU see things ... don't understand the gospel. Is it your way or the high way ??

I think there is room for each Christian to study and come to different comclusions even under the guidance of the Holy Spirit.

OR Do you have a monopoly on the Holy Spirit ??

If you would kindly take the time to look up these things in Greek-English lexicons and in English dictionaries, you would find that to "credit" something is the same thing as "account," "impute", etc.

It doesn't sound as if you even looked up my references in Thayers or p. 477 of Bauer, Arndt and Gingrich's Greek-English Lexicon or any other standard lexicon. In all due respect, Robert, you've got to do some basic study of this, and you obviously haven't done it, yet (forgive me if I am wrong) you frankly give the impression that you think you know everything. I do very much like your spirit and your sense of conviction and certainty, though. IMHO they just have to be tempered a bit with meekness and a consciousness of the possibility that you might be mistaken.

By the way, [b]the NIV is not (as you claim) the only translation that translates logizomai as credit. I have found it used in the New American Standard and in the Amplified, the first two translations after NIV that I checked. I am positive that if I looked further, I would find it in at least 25 more. I will do so if you like. [/b]You would also find this word used in a number of standard systematic theologies if you have access to any. See, for instance, p. 726 of Wayne Grudem's Systematic Theology where he discusses the meaning of justification and being credited or accounted or reckoned as righteous. Please do yourself the favor of looking up these words in the Bible, in about five different translations, and also studying how Ellen White uses them in the first volume of Selected Messages where she writes at length about Justification. God bless. John

Let me quote Paul:

Gal 1:6 I am astonished that you are so quickly deserting him who called you in the grace of Christ and turning to a different gospel— 7 not that there is another gospel, but there are some who trouble you and want to pervert the gospel of Christ.

8 But even if we, or an angel from heaven, should preach to you a gospel contrary to that which we preached to you, let him be accursed. 9 As we have said before, so now I say again, If any one is preaching to you a gospel contrary to that which you received, let him be accursed. 10 Am I now seeking the favor of men, or of God? Or am I trying to please men? If I were still pleasing men, I should not be a servant of Christ. 11 For I would have you know, brethren, that the gospel which was preached by me is not man’s gospel. 12 For I [Paul] did not receive it from man, nor was I taught it, but it came through a revelation of Jesus Christ.


What does Paul say concerning the gospel?

Rom 6:6 "we know that our old self [old life] was crucified with him [Jesus] so that the body of sin might be done away with...."

Rom 7:4 "Therefore, my brethren, you also were made to die to the Law in the body of Christ...."

Col 1:13 For He [Jesus] delivered us from the domain of darkness, and transferred us to the kingdom of His beloved Son, 14 in whom we have redemption, the forgiveness of sins.

Eph 2:4 But God, being rich in mercy, because of His great love with which He loved us, 5 even when we were dead in our transgressions, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved), 6 and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places, in Christ Jesus....

You see the law demands YOUR death, not Christ's! Substitution as taught in Christian circles is illegal and unethical. But the true gospel teaches that "in Christ" you died because the law demanded your death. And "in Christ" your glorified humanity was taken to heaven where Jesus represents you before God's law perfect in every detail. Any other gospel is a false, legalistic gospel and is to be condemned.

Robert

Is the gospel you present the one Paul presented many years ago or have you been teaching what your church taught you? I'll tell you straight out that the true gospel was rejected in 1888. To a large degree Adventism for the past 119 years has been wandering in the wilderness. They have been, like so many others, preaching a perverted gospel.

When this church accepts the true gospel it will cause "a shaking". Those who remain will bear the same fruit as the early church. Let's look at this:

Acts 2:43 And everyone kept feeling a sense of awe; and many wonders and signs were taking place through the apostles. 44 And all those who had believed were together, and had all things in common; 45 and they began selling their property and possessions, and were sharing them with all, as anyone might have need. ....32 And the congregation of those who believed were of one heart and soul [no division in the church]; and not one of them claimed that anything belonging to him was his own; but all things were common property to them. 33 And with great power the apostles were giving witness to the resurrection of the Lord Jesus, and abundant grace was upon them all.

So when you read, "Here are those who keep the commandments of God and bear testimony to Jesus" this "commandment keeping" is referring to the same selfless love of God and not the keeping of the letter of the law. It will be the result of "THE CHURCH" preaching the same gospel as taught by the early Christian church.

One day, Ellen G. White asked her angel, “What will be the shaking? What will bring about the shaking in this church?”

The angel said to Ellen G. White, “It will be the straight testimony of the Laodicean Message.”

Do you know what the Laodicean message is? Revelation 3:17-18:

You say, “I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.” But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind, and naked. I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see.

“Buy from Me white raiment.” The word “buy” means “exchange”; it means giving up your self-righteousness in exchange for Christ’s righteousness. If you don’t believe me, please look at Philippians 3:9, where Paul gave up his righteousness in exchange for the righteousness of Christ which comes by faith. Philippians 3:8-9:

What is more, I consider everything a loss compared to the surpassing greatness of knowing Christ Jesus my Lord, for whose sake I have lost all things. I consider them but dung, that I may gain Christ and be found in him, not having a righteousness of my own that comes from the law, but that which is through faith in Christ — the righteousness that comes from God and is by faith.

After Ellen G. White makes that statement, she made a statement to the ministers. It’s found in Testimonies to Ministers, pages 64-65. But this truth applies to you, also. Regarding the shaking, she says this is what will cause the shaking, the presentation of Christ our Righteousness - THE GOSPEL:

“They [i.e., these ministers, who are self-righteous, who are depending on their righteousness, or even on what God does in them] are not willing to be deprived of the garments of their own self-righteousness, they are not willing to exchange [that’s what the word “buy” means] their own righteousness, which is unrighteousness, for the righteousness of Christ, which is pure, unadulterated [no mixture] truth.”

The Jews made two mistakes. Must we repeat those mistakes? Why can’t we look at the history of Israel and say, “Lord, please deliver us from the same mistakes.”

Let us never get the idea that because God has given this church wonderful truths that we are better than the other Christians. We don’t have that monopoly. Why did God give it to us? I can’t answer, except that he’s sovereign. Not because we deserve it.

And please remember, there’s only one way God has promised to save all mankind, and that is in His Son Jesus Christ. You can’t buy Him, you can’t earn Him. The only way that righteousness can be yours is by faith, by saying like the Publican said when he prayed, “God forgive me, a sinner. I am depending entirely on your mercy, on your righteousness, on your gift, Jesus Christ.”

May God help us that we learn from the mistake of the Jews, and not repeat it, is my prayer in Jesus’ name.

Robert, for you to quote this -- and reading your attitude as expressed in these posts -- pardon me, but I do not SEE and HEAR this "selfless love of God". I hear someone who just has to have the last word. Please take the time to read what you have written -- not the words, but the attitude, and tell me -- can you hear the love of God reflected?

Beryl

No one is being selfless as Christ now. However, when the remnant is formed (after the true gospel is preached) the result will be a people who are reflecting Christ's selfless agape love.

Rob

EGW says: "The spirit of Jesus slept in the tomb with his body, and did not wing its way to Heaven, thereto maintain a separate existence, and to look down upon the mourning disciplkes embalming the body from which it had taken flight. All that comprised the life and intelligence of Jesus remained in with his body in the sepulcher, and when he came forth it was as a whole being; he did not have to summon his spirit from heaven." 3SP204
Does "Deity" have life and intelligence? If so then "Diety" slept in the sepulcher with his body.