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#355605 - 04/29/10 06:12 PM Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Hi, I'm new here, and I'm not really sure if this is the ideal place to post this question. If it's not a moderator is welcome to move it.

I'm a SDA high school student who's very interested in English Literature. I'm seriously considering taking it in college and teaching it. However, having grown up in a very conservative home, I still see a certain inconsistency in much of cannon literature and strict SDA principles. I'm interested in hearing thoughts from both "conservative" and "liberal" sides. (I'm sorry for the use of those words, but I'm sure you all understand my basic meaning.)

What are your views of fiction? What about Shakespeare? What were/are the ideas on literature in the SDA environment of which you were/are a part?

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#355606 - 04/29/10 06:35 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
Dr. Rich Offline
RIP Dr Rich, you are missed


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4008
Loc: California
Welcome SarahAnne! (Same name as my Grandaughter) My educated opinion is not worth much here, but if not for the wonderful and thoughtful instruction of my English teacher at Union College (the late Mrs. Hagglegantz) I would not have even wanted to open a book and read it. She actually shared with me a whole new world out there even though most of it was, and understood, as fiction. Of course I started with Shakespeare, but soon ventured out into the would of other writers.

Since then, I have focused my study on what is fact or fiction in regards to the bible as we have it today--both the new and old testament. There is no such thing as 'conservative' or 'liberal' sides to the cannon, it is either fact or fiction. Please forgive the many sentence structure errors. English lit helps one to discover the many meanings of different words. Good luck.


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#355607 - 04/29/10 06:42 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: Dr. Rich]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.
_________________________
Christ's religion is poetry.

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#355617 - 04/29/10 07:19 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
Dr. Rich Offline
RIP Dr Rich, you are missed


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4008
Loc: California
Hmmm? I see your point. Does she listen to the radio, watch tv or read a news paper? How does one know what is fact or fiction without first studying it and to do that one must first read it. Take the little book called "The Shack" for instance. It is fiction, but it is a wonderful book to get a picture of God even though I don't fully agree with it.

Many have read EGW's books thinking that they are not fiction. (I am not saying they are or not, that you must find out for yourself.) Well, how would one know if they refused to study them along with what other people wrote in the same time period.

Here is the thing: What caused your mother to believe that reading fiction is a sin--or is wrong? Find the answer to this and you will have a start on knowing how to make her happy.

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#355633 - 04/29/10 08:02 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: Dr. Rich]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich
Here is the thing: What caused your mother to believe that reading fiction is a sin--or is wrong? Find the answer to this and you will have a start on knowing how to make her happy.


She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.

The rest of your question is somewhat ambiguous to me. She doesn't really have much to do with newspapers, news, etc, but though those things may be falsely presented, I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.



Edited by SarahAnne (04/29/10 08:07 PM)

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#355650 - 04/29/10 08:33 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
Dr. Rich Offline
RIP Dr Rich, you are missed


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4008
Loc: California
My wife has a good idea. Have you gone to the bible book store and found any books by "Ginny Aiken" or "James Scott Bell" or "Dee Henderson" or "Kingsbury" or "Smalley & Kingsbury"? Personally, I like the whole set of Dee Henderson's and I would bet your mother would too IF you could get her to read them. If you haven't read them yourself, then perhaps you could start here and then let her read what you are reading. They all are fiction, but are truly wonderful 'stories' for the christian readier.

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#355750 - 04/30/10 07:28 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: Dr. Rich]
dgrimm60 Online   content


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 44867
Loc: dickson tenn
SARAHANNE

ARE you planing on teacching lititure in school
after you go to college??? if so you would have
to teach in a public school....

any way back to the question fiction books are not
the best to be reading....what the mind behold it becomes

I do not have a t.v. or newpaper(the main reason is I
have been out of work for 1 and 1/2 years so I needed
to cut cost some where I DO NOT miss either)
if I WANT any news or weather I check online
with my computor

but with that said novels might be ok to read
and biographic or auto-biographic would be very
good to read


they have a lot of stories and books in the ABC

that people can read and enjoy

hope this helps you

dgrimm60




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#355751 - 04/30/10 07:30 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: dgrimm60]
dgrimm60 Online   content


Registered: 08/19/01
Posts: 44867
Loc: dickson tenn
SARAHANNE

I JUST wanted you let you know I AM an older man
that raised 3 boys....

dgrimm60

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#355761 - 04/30/10 08:57 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Quote:
SarahAnne:
She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.


Hi SarahAnne: Welcome to the Forum. I'm very glad you've decided to join our discussions here. As you can see, we have lots of fun talking about all kinds of interesting (and some not-so-interesting) topics. For me this subject has a lot of interest. I studied literature and got a BA in it from CA State U, as well as a degree in theology from an SDA University.

Let me begin by saying that there are many SDAs who believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry and also love studying and reading literature. A good friend of mine has taught literature at La Sierra Adventist Academy for over 20 years, and he definitely believes in Ellen White as a prophet of God. (I may be able to connect you with him, since he's given years of thought to the very question you've posed.) I myself also love literature and am a firm believer in Ellen White as God's messenger to the remnant church.

How can I do this? Because Ellen White wasn't talking about what I call "serious literature." She primarily had in mind "popular literature." I realize this distinction can be abused and misunderstood and become an excuse to read all kinds of bad material, but if a person is sincere and honest with themselves and with God, they will not attempt to abuse or take advantage of the distinction.

The important point is that there's a difference between literature that teaches something valuable and literature that has almost no redeeming value.

This is just the beginning of my response to you. I have to go to bed now, since it's 5:45 in the morning here in CA. I'll return to this and add more, later.


Quote:
SarahAnne: I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.


You're right, there is; and I look forward to talking about this with you when I come back in a few hours.

Until then, happy reading of good literature.

Who are some of your favorite writers and/or poets?

Mine are (to give a short list) Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Isaac Babel, Guy de Maupassaunt, Thackeray, Thomas Hardy, Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Mr. Ernest Hemingway, and William Faulkner. My favorite poets are Shakespeare, Milton, Edmund Spenser, Wordsworth and Keats.

offtobed


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#355779 - 04/30/10 11:40 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: dgrimm60]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: dgrimm60


ARE you planing on teacching lititure in school
after you go to college??? if so you would have
to teach in a public school....



they have a lot of stories and books in the ABC

that people can read and enjoy



If I do take Literature I would like to teach it, and ideally at a college level, I think. But teaching positions are very, very hard to come by. I guess the public school issue might be part of my problem, because there may be some literature I just wouldn't feel comfortable teaching. (If I could just teach poets - say Wordsworth and Milton - I'm sure my mother would have absolutely no problem with it.)

I grew up on (mostly true) story books from ABC, and while I still appreciate them, one advances to the point that they seem rather too light. It's not about a need to be reading something, it's about having this pull towards the great classics.

_________________________
Christ's religion is poetry.

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#355781 - 04/30/10 12:08 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: John317]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
John317, your comments have been very helpful and interesting, especially coming from someone who has an understanding of great literature!
Quote:
I studied literature and got a BA in it from CA State U, as well as a degree in theology from an SDA University.


Fascinating! I look forward to more discussion with you!

Quote:

Let me begin by saying that there are many SDAs who believe in Ellen White's prophetic ministry and also love studying and reading literature. A good friend of mine has taught literature at La Sierra Adventist Academy for over 20 years, and he definitely believes in Ellen White as a prophet of God. (I may be able to connect you with him, since he's given years of thought to the very question you've posed.) I myself also love literature and am a firm believer in Ellen White as God's messenger to the remnant church.


This is comforting to me, as it seems like this literature question has been seriously shaking my faith. May I ask what authors he taught? (Well, maybe you don't know, and that's okay. I don't want to cause the poor man inconvenience, but I'd be interested in hearing more of his views and conclusions.)



Quote:
How can I do this? Because Ellen White wasn't talking about what I call "serious literature." She primarily had in mind "popular literature." I realize this distinction can be abused and misunderstood and become an excuse to read all kinds of bad material, but if a person is sincere and honest with themselves and with God, they will not attempt to abuse or take advantage of the distinction.



Quote:
SarahAnne: I do believe there is difference in that kind of 'fiction' and that in a classic novel.


You're right, there is; and I look forward to talking about this with you when I come back in a few hours
.

I fully understand your point in the context of poetry. However, I'd be interested in what you believe Mrs. White would have considered "serious" versus "popular" in her day. After all, great classics from Dickens, the Brontes, George Elliot, Thackeray, etc. were becoming "popular" in her day. (Forgive me if the time periods are a little mixed up.) Yet today they are considered literature. She also condemned "Uncle Tom's Cabin" - which is (from what I've heard) a serious work.

Quote:
Who are some of your favorite writers and/or poets?

Mine are (to give a short list) Dostoevsky, Tolstoy, Isaac Babel, Guy de Maupassaunt, Thackeray, Thomas Hardy, Jane Austin, Mark Twain, Mr. Ernest Hemingway, and William Faulkner. My favorite poets are Shakespeare, Milton, Edmund Spenser, Wordsworth and Keats.


Poets:: Wordsworth and Milton probably rank tops. I do enjoy some of the easier poets, like Tennyson, Longfellow and Whittier. I'm also getting into Donne and the Brownings. And I can't forget Emily Dickinson, whom I adore! There are a lot of others too, of course. And I was just thinking last night that I must read more Keats.

Novelists: I tend to read a lot of Victorian novels by women, thus the Brontes and Elliot. Love Jane Austen (not Victorian, of course). I'm currently reading "Vanity Fair". I have to expand my horizons in this area. Dickens, Dostoevsky, Faulkner and Woolf are high on my Must Read list.

And I can't forget Shakespeare, who I've just scratched the surface with. I've been reading a few sonnets a week, through an email program, and frankly I'm finding some a bit redundant. But I do enjoy the plays.


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#355808 - 04/30/10 02:05 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
rudywoofs Online   happy
exwitch, researcher, & married


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 8185
Originally Posted By: SarahAnne
Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.


If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?
_________________________
Pam



Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

I am so clever that sometimes I don’t understand a single word of what I am saying. Oscar Wilde



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#355822 - 04/30/10 04:24 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: rudywoofs]
SivartM Offline
*nods emphatically*


Registered: 12/20/08
Posts: 3421
Loc: Here, there, everywhere
Wow, another high-schooler! :D

I read a lot in a variety of genres. My family's general outlook on literature is anything goes as long as it's not outright inappropriate. I sometimes struggle with wondering whether I should be reading, say, a philosophy book from a non-Christian viewpoint. I get sort of worried reading Ellen's warnings about "infidel authors" and all that, but I don't know...

I think that Ellen was more concerned about people believing in other people's opinions more than in the Bible. But I'm interested in hearing what everyone here has to say also.
_________________________
"Always forgive your enemies; nothing annoys them so much." - Oscar Wilde

“Do to others whatever you would like them to do to you. This is the essence of all that is taught in the law and the prophets." - Jesus

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#355848 - 04/30/10 08:55 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: rudywoofs]
olger Online   content


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 10116
Loc: Ohio
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
Originally Posted By: SarahAnne
Thanks for the welcome, Dr. Rich! What I meant by 'conservative' and 'liberal' is that some SDAs are fervently against Shakespeare, all fiction, and most lit in general. Others, not reading EGW the same way, are comfortable reading most literature, even if it may sometimes contradict SDA or Christian principles. Do I make myself clear?

My mother, for example, was rather concerned when she found I was reading Shakespeare. I think it will be very disturbing for her if I pursue English lit.


If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?
le touche'


g

Welcome Sara, and blessings to you.
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#356095 - 05/02/10 12:10 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: rudywoofs]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs


If you go to an SDA college (presuming you will) why should your mother be disturbed by anything that is taught?


Well, my mother could easily be disturbed by subjects taught in SDA colleges. She's very conservative, and believes that some of our colleges have degenerated. Last time she was in one of our colleges (before she married and had me) she had friends with whom she agreed, that were making an issue about reading Shakespeare for English. Incidentally, the English teacher was her high school room-mate and friend. But, with more (for lack of a better word) 'liberal' views, this friend was upset at the ministerial students who objected to the reading material. I believe she quit teaching English because of the to-do. (That's probably all very confusing to read. lol)

And then there's no saying I'd go to an SDA, or even a Christian college to take literature.

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#356163 - 05/02/10 09:07 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
My suggestion would be to take your first year of English at a junior college where it's a lot less expensive. They are also on the semester system whereas the universities are almost always on the quarter system, which is must faster. You can take all your introductory courses at a junior college and then transfer them to a university or 4 year college. Just make sure they are transferable. See how you like it and if you excel in it. If you change your mind and want to take a different major, at least you won't have wasted a lot of money as you would at a university.

Some of the best English Lit classes I ever took were at SDA colleges: Pacific Union College and Loma Linda University. But the literature classes I had at California State University were outstanding, especially The Romantic Poets, Shakespeare I and II, Approaches to Literary Criticism, Rhetorical Theory, and The Complete Works of Thomas Pynchon. Three of those were in graduate school at Humbolt State U, a wonderful place to be.

As far as Ellen White in concerned, many people don't realize it, but she herself compiled three volumes of stories for children, titled something like, Stories for Sabbath Reading, which are true-to-life fiction and were chosen for the purpose of teaching good lessons. They're very realistic stories and teach good morals, but they're not true. The main thing is that they could have happened and children learn important lessons from them. (These volumes can be found at the Ellen White Estate or at the Heritage Room at Loma Linda U Library.)

My own experience with fiction taught me that we need to be very careful what we read, because it will have a powerful influence on us, especially if we read it in our early years. I read a great deal of fiction as a kid, and I know that much of it had a negative effect on me. For instance, Andre Gide, Jean Genet, John Rechy, and Henry Miller, excellent writers all but who can ruin an impressionable, "innocent" kid, who takes their works too seriously. I found out the hard way that what Ellen White says about the damage that fiction can do is absolutely true.

I would rather have my children reading history and biography at that age, and then when they reach high school age, they could begin reading some of the classics, such as Moby Dick, Huckleberry Finn, The Red Badge of Courage, and Scarlet Letter, etc. I would also want to read it along with my children and discuss it with them. That's what I did with my 18 year old daughter when I gave her Crime and Punishment to read. I was in awe of that book at age 14, but my daughter didn't understand the Russian characters and the philosophical talk. So now she is reading Adventist Home and enjoying it very much, she told me yesterday.

I noticed you said you are reading Vanity Fair. That was one of my favorite books in college. I love Thackeray. He's a better stylist and artist than Dickens.

I have a huge library of "good" fiction but I haven't read it much for the last 5 years because my interest and focus has been replaced without any conscious planning with an almost all-consuming interest in the Bible. When I do dip into fiction, lately it has been Tolstoy's Anna Karenina, whose name we gave to our youngest daughter-- Anna Karina.

And so offtobed

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#356193 - 05/02/10 12:45 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: John317]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Again, thank you, John317, for your comments. I'm sure the junior college vs. university info will prove helpful. Is it possible to get a degree in English lit from one of our colleges? And is the reading material at all different than in a secular course?

Yes, I did know that the stories in the "Sabbath Readings" book are mostly fictitious. So, of course, I wouldn't say Mrs. White entirely condemned fiction. However, I still have my doubts about the classics, written in her day, which I seem to gravitate towards.

John317, your approach to fiction, and reading in general, strikes me as very balanced. However, again I have to bring out my doubts. I asked about literature reading in high-school on a website which attracts a lot of conservative, home-schooled SDA young people.
The following quote is an example of what they think of Shakespeare.

"Romeo and Juliet is a perfect example. Where are the Biblical principles in it? There are none. Instead it's full of disobedience to parents, suicide, distrust in God's leading and countless other things. "


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#357269 - 05/07/10 11:41 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Have I scared everyone off?

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#357274 - 05/07/10 12:48 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
oldsailor29 Offline


Registered: 05/01/09
Posts: 1035
Loc: Lancaster, MA
Originally Posted By: SarahAnne
Have I scared everyone off?


Some may be scared, but I have found that SDAs attitudes toward many things are ill founded. I have read all types of literature, and decided that peoples attitudes toward the things I have read are of little importance and totally unworthy of discussion. I think that is the major reason there is little to no response here.
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#357275 - 05/07/10 12:52 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: oldsailor29]
Woody Online   th_yap2
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 31965
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Well ... I don't know if people are scared or not. But, I do know that people here like 'fiction'. Just head on over to the ANTI- Women's Ordination threads ... and you will find plenty of fiction that attracts attention. :)
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
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#357279 - 05/07/10 01:48 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA

Hi SarahAnne,

No, not at all scared off-- at least not me. I enjoy discussing issues relating to literature and fiction. I apologize for not checking on this thread in several days. I've been busy editing two works in progress, one on the heavenly sanctuary, and the other a translation of the Koran with lots of notes.




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#357282 - 05/07/10 02:08 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Quote:
SarahAnne: ...I'm sure the junior college vs. university info will prove helpful. Is it possible to get a degree in English lit from one of our colleges? And is the reading material at all different than in a secular course?


Yes, it is certainly possible to get a degree in English Lit from one of our colleges. I took English Lit. at Pacific Union College until I changed my major. I also took English Lit at two public colleges, and I didn't find there to be all that much difference in terms of the books we were required to read. There was some difference but not a lot. You would read the great English and American classics in both public or SDA colleges.

One difference is that in a large public university, you would have a greater selection of literature classes than at an SDA school. I doubt any of our colleges and universities offer courses in the complete writings of Thomas Pynchon, for instance-- although I could be wrong. I have a great interest in Latin American/Mexican (untranslated) literature, and Chicano studies, but I've never seen such courses taught at SDA colleges. But again, I might be wrong about this point. I haven't checked every SDA school. But I do know these kinds of classes are in most of the major public universities.

Quote:
SarahAnne: Yes, I did know that the stories in the "Sabbath Readings" book are mostly fictitious. So, of course, I wouldn't say Mrs. White entirely condemned fiction. However, I still have my doubts about the classics, written in her day, which I seem to gravitate towards.


What classics do you have in mind? Any particular ones?

Are there books you feel may not be right to read? My idea is that if we don't feel we should be reading something, then we shouldn't read it. We shouldn't do anything that our conscience is telling us not to do.

Quote:
SarahAnne: your approach to fiction, and reading in general, strikes me as very balanced. However, again I have to bring out my doubts. I asked about literature reading in high-school on a website which attracts a lot of conservative, home-schooled SDA young people.
The following quote is an example of what they think of Shakespeare.

"Romeo and Juliet is a perfect example. Where are the Biblical principles in it? There are none. Instead it's full of disobedience to parents, suicide, distrust in God's leading and countless other things. "


Yes, this is true, and I would not want to push the comparison, but the truth is that the Bible also contains all of the things they describe here. Of course the difference is that in the Bible, the context is God's salvific work on behalf of humankind. But there is no reason that a Christian reader cannot look at some of Shakespeare's plays in the same light. In fact, one of Shakespeare's reasons for writing what he did was his desire to show the horrible affects on society of anarchy and a lack of strong, moral social structure. We can't read his mind and he never wrote an explanation of his motives, but that's certainly one of the main themes all through Shakespeare's plays.

All of the world's best literature is fundamentally concerned with morals-- the choices of good and evil that people face. You've probably noticed this in books such as Vanity Fair and Mansfield Park. Great literature, of course, does not approach the discussion of morals in a straightforward fashion. For instance, you can't expect to find comments such as, "The lesson I wish to teach in this story is that...." The "lessons" are much more subtle.

Does this help?


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#357509 - 05/08/10 12:15 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
monica Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 05/05/07
Posts: 106
Loc: T.A.
Originally Posted By: SarahAnne

She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.


Is everything EGW wrote divinely inspired??

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#357712 - 05/09/10 02:02 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: monica]
CoAspen Online   walklikeegyptian


Registered: 07/01/02
Posts: 5989
Loc: Colorado
You want an answer to that question?
One word....No, of course not. But that answer often leads off into the wild blue yonder!!
_________________________
Frank Zappa “Our mind is like a parachute, it doesn’t work if it is not open.”


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#357714 - 05/09/10 03:03 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: CoAspen]
'nuff sed Offline
www.forestlakechurch.org


Registered: 07/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Apopka, FL. USA
Having been somewhat concerned about the wave of "Adventist Fiction" which seemed to be arising many years ago, I asked one of the book editors of the Review and Herald Publishing Company "What is your criteria for fiction?" "Well, he answered, It must be true to life". The world's greatest fiction writers are meticulous in being sure that their work is "true to life"....so.....does it make any difference anymore? IMO some of the denomination's greatest fiction writers were Josephine Cunnington Edwards, Goldie Down, and Norma Youngberg. Remember the story of "Nyla and the White Crocodile"? It supposedly happened in Bukit Nyala, Sarawak, East Malaysia. When I worked in that mission many years ago I had occasion to visit that area. The people who lived there never heard of Nyla nor the White Crocodile.
I guess it could all be summed up in the stories told by Horace (Tall Tale) Tuttle. As he was waxing eloquently one day his brother said, "Horace, it didn't happen that way". Horace replied, "Well it could have". 'nuff sed



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#357724 - 05/09/10 06:07 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: 'nuff sed]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Quote:
'nuff sed: Having been somewhat concerned about the wave of "Adventist Fiction" which seemed to be arising many years ago, I asked one of the book editors of the Review and Herald Publishing Company "What is your criteria for fiction?" "Well, he answered, It must be true to life". The world's greatest fiction writers are meticulous in being sure that their work is "true to life"....so.....does it make any difference anymore? IMO some of the denomination's greatest fiction writers were Josephine Cunnington Edwards, Goldie Down, and Norma Youngberg.



Good points.

I love fiction and have read tons of it over the last 40 years, but my taste for spending many hours a day reading and writing it have been replaced by studying the Bible and writing about biblical themes. It's not a change that I made deliberately due to any conviction that it's wrong-- it is just that my interests have changed over the last few years.

Their standards have to be "true to life," because no one is going to be able to write a story where the dialogue and every incident is exactly the way it was in real life. A good story is going to need some additions and subtractions and some things rearranged because a story worth publishing and reading is a work of art.

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#358793 - 05/12/10 10:23 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: John317]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada


Again, thankyou for the info. I'll have to look into Thomas Pynchon, who I am not familiar with.


I believe the classics I was speaking of as attracting me were ones written in Mrs. White's day. George Elliot, Dickens, Thackeray, the Brontes, etc. I still see no evidence to contradict a belief that Mrs. White was including these in her philippics against fiction. However, for myself I am comfortable with them. As you so ably put it,

Quote:
All of the world's best literature is fundamentally concerned with morals-- the choices of good and evil that people face. You've probably noticed this in books such as Vanity Fair and Mansfield Park. Great literature, of course, does not approach the discussion of morals in a straightforward fashion. For instance, you can't expect to find comments such as, "The lesson I wish to teach in this story is that...." The "lessons" are much more subtle.


There is, in my opinion, a clear-sighted magnanimity in the Victorian authors which the reader may learn from.

I'm glad you mentioned Mansfield Park, as I have long held that Austen's primary concern was in the morality of behavior. She, of course, was too good a novelist to loudly chastise her rascal-characters, but her subtle irony has much greater power because of this.




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#358796 - 05/12/10 10:35 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: 'nuff sed]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: John317


Yes, this is true, and I would not want to push the comparison, but the truth is that the Bible also contains all of the things they describe here. Of course the difference is that in the Bible, the context is God's salvific work on behalf of humankind. But there is no reason that a Christian reader cannot look at some of Shakespeare's plays in the same light. In fact, one of Shakespeare's reasons for writing what he did was his desire to show the horrible affects on society of anarchy and a lack of strong, moral social structure. We can't read his mind and he never wrote an explanation of his motives, but that's certainly one of the main themes all through Shakespeare's plays.


Does this help?



I'm having a little trouble with repeated quoting, so forgive the double post.

I've never heard this interpretation of Shakespeare before. I'd always hear of him being considered a very non-judgmental writer. I do, of course, agree that the Bible includes many acts of violence and evil, so Shakespeare's use of such material is not in itself a valid argument against his work.

And, yes, your answers always help and get me thinking, John317.

Originally Posted By: 'nuff sed
Having been somewhat concerned about the wave of "Adventist Fiction" which seemed to be arising many years ago, I asked one of the book editors of the Review and Herald Publishing Company "What is your criteria for fiction?" "Well, he answered, It must be true to life". The world's greatest fiction writers are meticulous in being sure that their work is "true to life"....so.....does it make any difference anymore? IMO some of the denomination's greatest fiction writers were Josephine Cunnington Edwards, Goldie Down, and Norma Youngberg. Remember the story of "Nyla and the White Crocodile"? It supposedly happened in Bukit Nyala, Sarawak, East Malaysia. When I worked in that mission many years ago I had occasion to visit that area. The people who lived there never heard of Nyla nor the White Crocodile.
I guess it could all be summed up in the stories told by Horace (Tall Tale) Tuttle. As he was waxing eloquently one day his brother said, "Horace, it didn't happen that way". Horace replied, "Well it could have". 'nuff sed




You've mentioned some of my most beloved SDA story authors! I'd heard something about Josephine Cunnington Edwards' views on fiction and Mrs. White's statements on the subject. Anymore info? Also very interesting about Nyla and the White Crocodile. Has anyone ever read Youngberg's book The Tiger of Bitter Valley? I swear that book is fiction. And I still haven't completely figured out the allegoric meaning of it.


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#358803 - 05/12/10 11:15 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
'nuff sed Offline
www.forestlakechurch.org


Registered: 07/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Apopka, FL. USA
Another is the story of the Broken Stone Mission................Maybe I should not be the bearer of bad tidings concerning that one.... /nuff sed

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#359065 - 05/14/10 11:13 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: 'nuff sed]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
I'm not familiar with the story of the Broken Stone Mission - who's it by?
Now, please, nobody tell me "Singer on the Sand" is fiction. Even my love of fiction may not be able to stand that!

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#359131 - 05/14/10 06:55 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
'nuff sed Offline
www.forestlakechurch.org


Registered: 07/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Apopka, FL. USA
The story in a nutshell is that someone came to the peruvian village and taught the gospel to the villagers. Then he had to leave. The chief was told that someone would come later to teach more. The chief wanted to know how he would know who the right person was. According to the story, the teacher picked up a stone and broke it, giving half to the chief. When the two halves were united the chief would know that the right man had come...
Nice story.....supposedly the worker came, united the stones and everyone lived happily ever after...............The truth of the matter is that the chief lost his half of the stone.................. But it must have resolved itself for it is still called the Broken Stone Mission..

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#359147 - 05/14/10 08:06 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Quote:
SarahAnne:

Again, thankyou for the info. I'll have to look into Thomas Pynchon, who I am not familiar with.


His very best are:

The Crying of Lot 49, a short novel (takes place in Southern Ca) The main theme is paranoia and "signs."

Slow Learner (His first published short stories, containing themes that the author explores in later books. For instance, Entropy. His best story here is "Under the Rose.)

V. (great humor, brilliant)

Gravity's Rainbow (his best and most ambitious)

Gravity's Rainbow is probably the most representative novel of the 20th century. It's has parts that read like a comedy but also a nightmare. It takes place during WW II in England and in war-torn Germany.

Mason & Dixon (Haven't read it, but I hear it's very good.)

Don't be discouraged when you first start reading him. Just keep plowing through. It is kind of like studying a foreign language-- after a while you begin to see the light, and when you do, it will be worth it.

They are a very different style. Pynchon was influenced by cartoons, rock music, 1950s TV, pop culture, and film.

This link will give you an idea of the writer as well as synopsis of his various works: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Pynchon

It might be best to wait to read Pynchon's longest books after your Freshman year of college.

His most important books are difficult to read for average readers, but college students majoring in literature usually like him.







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#359191 - 05/14/10 10:51 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: John317]
SarahAnne Offline
Beginning to post a bit...

Registered: 11/21/08
Posts: 12
Loc: Canada
Nuff Sed: Thanks for the explanation. Now I remember the story from an old reader. I have to confess that as one who frequently does the children's story for church, I sometimes wonder about the authenticity of mission stories I tell, but still use them because of the dramatic elements that translate well into oral-stories.

john317: Thanks for the author info. Someday hopefully I'll check out his work, but my Must Read list is enormous, and I need to try not to over-do the fiction.

It's almost Sabbath here. Happy Sabbath everyone!

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#359268 - 05/15/10 11:40 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
'nuff sed Offline
www.forestlakechurch.org


Registered: 07/08/00
Posts: 1686
Loc: Apopka, FL. USA
When I finally finish my book of children's stories ("Tell Me Another, Uncle Don") I wonder how many of my personal stories will be thought of as being fiction.

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#368627 - 06/19/10 12:31 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: 'nuff sed]
pindoc Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 07/07/07
Posts: 89
Loc: oregon
SarahAnne, welcome aboard!

I'm so glad you posted here. I've strolled through the thread and there's so much wonderful input. Please don't let people scare you away from real literature, from most kinds of literature, simply because you are SDA.

John317 mentioned "Crime and Punishment". I attended church school from 3rd grade through 11th. No, I didn't get kicked out. Our local church school only had 10 grades. I lived with my maternal grandmother and went to day academy that last year. My parents decided 1 year w/ grandma was enough for me, so they kept me home for 12th grade. I got to take AP English. C & P was on our itinerary. I loved it. The character development is incredible and the story's intense. It's been over 30, um, 32 years since I graduated, since I read that book. It still sends a chill down my spine and I haven't picked it up since. If you enjoy Edgar Allen Poe's "The Tell-tale Heart" you would love "Crime and Punishment" - if you can handle the stress of reading on the edge of your seat for that long.
TU

My only regret from AP English was that I didn't appreciate science fiction in those days. I didn't get the point of it. Now I get it. Douglas Adams is a genius. The first page of the "Hitchhiker’s Guide to the Galaxy" states: DON'T PANIC! You've heard the word "grok"? That was Robert Heinlein's invention. Philip Jose Farmer wrote a very short story, "The King of Beasts," that I cannot get through without choking up. I have tried to read it aloud and I cannot do it without my voice breaking. In "Barlowe's Guide to Extraterrestrials" - I special ordered that book since I could not find it locally - Richard Barlowe depicts a mother creature from another PJF short. I knew the creature without even checking the label. It was if PJF had stood behind the artist at his drawing table, telling him what to paint.

I used to have a Christian-published creative writing book. I'm sure it was SDA-authored, but my memory could be wrong. On the jacket, it stated that the best fiction is full of truth. The characters that touch people the most deeply are very real. We've met them, lived next door, worked with them and had them check us out at the grocery. Truths can be stated in fiction, as fiction, that folks would shy away from in real life. Shy? Often they'd ran at a breakneck pace for the nearest desolate hills.
ayeyiyi

That's why Jesus told so many parables. He was speaking truths that his companions, and those who feared his influence, could not grasp and would not hear if stated directly. How many times is it recorded that the rabbis left him alone after he answered their questions with a parable? How many other times did that happen? We will not know the beginning of it till we meet in heaven.

_________________________
Pindoc
Living Like No One Else so later I'll be Living & Giving Like No One Else!
"The rich rule over the poor,
and the borrower is slave to the lender."

Proverbs 22:7 (TNIV)

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#368657 - 06/19/10 06:54 AM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: pindoc]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Pindoc,

Thanks very much for your post.

Am wondering if you've read anything of Feodor Dostoyevsky's besides Crime and Punishment.

Here's a selection of his works, which may be read online:

http://www.kiosek.com/dostoevsky/contents.html

Among his best are

1) The Brothers Karamazov

2) Crime and Punishment

3) The Idiot

4) The Devils (sometimes titled, The Possessed)

5) Friend of the Family

6) Notes From Underground

7) The Eternal Husband

8) The Double

9) The Insulted and the Injured

10) A Gentle Spirit

11) Poor Folk

12) The House of the Dead

13) A Raw Youth

14) White Nights [Bright Nights]

15) Netochka Nezvanova

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#368710 - 06/19/10 12:01 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
there buster Offline


Registered: 07/14/04
Posts: 3837
Quote:
She ardently believes Mrs. White's writings, which it must be admitted certainly put a great damper even on what might be considered innocent fiction. I've read the quotes myself and I don't know how I'd get around them except if I rejected the idea that Mrs. White is Divinely inspired.


Sarah Ann, I just noticed this thread, or I would have replied earlier.

As part of my graduate studies, I took the class "The Ellen White Writings" at Andrews University. As part of the course, we were required to research some topic using the White Estate materials, and contribute a short paper. I chose the topic "Fiction."

I discovered that there is a great misunderstanding among many Adventists on this topic. Mrs. White not only had "Pilgrim's Progress" in her own library, she also read other books we would call fiction. When she condemned fiction, she was thinking of a particular kind of light fiction, essentially bubble gum for the mind. The White Estate had a copy of a book she had identified as precisely what she was talking about. It was a Christian Romance from the late 1800's, essentially a young girl's fantasy about finding the love of her life.

It was not the fact that the book depicted events which had not happened, but that it was unrealistic, fed impractical fantasies, and was vapid.

C. S. Lewis and Mortimer Adler the latter an agnostic intellectual) have written similar critiques of bad literature.

Someone else mentioned an Adventist book about writing. I have two copies of "Creative Techniques for Christian Writers," published by Pacific Press in the 1960's, written by Normanl Youngberg. It is an excellent book which distinguishes between fact and truth.

A factual story may tell of a scoundrel who gets away with terrible deeds. But the Bible says, "The way of the transgressor is hard." So a fictional story which portrays that truth may be more true than a factual story which teaches the opposite.

In short, you need not be afraid of fiction, but we all need to be wary of bad writing and fluffy timewasting stories. You might read C. S. Lewis' "An Exercise in Criticism" as useful in your quest.

And in conclusion, lots of Christians misuse Philippians 4 : "Whatsoever is good . . ." etc.

They use it to eliminate anything that isn't absolutely perfect. But the passage concludes, "if there be any virtue, if there be any praise. . ."

No human production is perfect and without flaw. It's easy to find imperfection in any work of literature, if that's what you're reading for. But if you read to learn what is good, whether story or technique, if you pick out what is excellent, you will seldom go wrong.

Are there books that should not be read. Of course. But if you spend your time looking for the good, the great, and the true-- you won't waste time on those that are mainly dross.



_________________________
“the slovenliness of our language makes it easier to have foolish thoughts.” George Orwell

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#411853 - 11/26/10 02:03 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: SarahAnne]
JudyJudy Offline
New Citizen of Club Adventist

Registered: 10/29/06
Posts: 2
Loc: Virginia, US
If you read Mrs. White's comments on fiction, she was against fairy tales and frivolous stories that fostered escapism and led to a dislike of Bible study. However, she endorsed both "Pilgrim's Progress" and "Uncle Tom's Cabin," both of which -- although fiction -- taught strong lessons on morality and Christian living.

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#411868 - 11/26/10 02:55 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: JudyJudy]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: JudyJudy
... Mrs. White's ....endorsed ...."Uncle Tom's Cabin,"....


I agree with the principle idea of your post, but I'm not aware of her having endorsed Uncle Tom's Cabin.

I would be happy if she did, though, because I do think that book does have value.

Are you referring to a specific statement Ellen White made about it?

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#411869 - 11/26/10 02:58 PM Re: Adventist Attitudes Toward Literature [Re: there buster]
John317 Offline


Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33614
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Great post, buster. I agree.

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