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#433637 - 04/04/11 02:06 PM Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven?
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
Mal.3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."


Can those who are robbing God of tithes and offerings "inherit the kingdom of God" OR ... is it okay to be a thief if you are just robbing from God rather than from man?

Quote:
1 Cor. 6:9-10
"Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God."


Here are some thoughts:

Our prophet says that Tithe is the "Test of heavenly fellowship" See EV 251

She also states that Faithfulness in tithe paying is a condition to answered prayers. See COL144

Dishonesty in tithing "is registered in the books of heaven as robbery toward Him." CS 77

In the Church Manual p. 135 Tithe paying is described as a "spiritual exercise in which we should all have a part of. It can't be separated from the message of salvation".
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#433779 - 04/05/11 09:01 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
If thieves are admitted into heaven, so should idolaters and adulterers, and murderers, etc. etc.

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#433802 - 04/05/11 12:37 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
If thieves are admitted into heaven, so should idolaters and adulterers, and murderers, etc. etc.


Praise God Gerry. Yes, we do know that there will be idolaters and adulterers, and/or murderers in Heaven. In fact there already is.
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#433839 - 04/05/11 04:29 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Ex? Or present?

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#433842 - 04/05/11 04:32 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
Woody Offline
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Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
Ex? Or present?


I doubt there are any present murders in heaven. But there are murderers. However ... once we get to heaven we will be transformed so we don't murder anymore. Praise God. For I would not want to go to heaven and experience what we have on Earth.
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#434158 - 04/06/11 09:57 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Musicman1228 Offline


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1859
Loc: CA
Do any of you know the purpose for tithe as designed by God in the Old Testament? Today the church (SDA and otherwise) uses the concept of 'tithe' to extort money from the masses of believers as a means of command and control, and as a means of wielding power. No one goes beyond the texts cited above because they support this extortion, when they do not mean what it is said they mean.

If you do even a little research on this you will discover that the real purpose of tithe was to celebrate before the Lord. Secondary to that was taking care of the needy and supplying the priesthood with what they needed to work in the Temple.

As with other things Jesus put an end to tithing when He died on the cross.

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#434292 - 04/07/11 05:17 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Musicman1228]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC

Pray tell, how are those spreading the gospel supposed to live?
No one is twisting my arm to return the tithe.


Edited by Gerry Cabalo (04/07/11 05:17 PM)

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#434383 - 04/07/11 11:10 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Musicman1228]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
Today the church (SDA and otherwise) uses the concept of 'tithe' to extort money from the masses of believers


If someone doesn't want to show their ownership to God and that God is the owner of all we have ... then I would have to question their relationship.

The symbolism is out of this world. No extortion needed. Just a love for God.
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#434398 - 04/07/11 11:37 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
Dr. Rich Offline
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Registered: 02/12/08
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Ya Gerry, pray tell how William Miller and his group ever got the time and money to spread the news and get a group together as found in 1844? Huh?

Wasn't it Uriah Smith who said that when 'we' have to pay people to study and hear the truth of the gospel, then that is when it will become a business and will cease to become what God wishes as every man and woman are the priests. Jesus NEVER came to set up any church and establish a paid position as a pastor. Each of the disciples were to teach others and pass along this message of the Kingdom of Heaven. As such, they still needed their jobs as fishermen.

Are not we to trust in God and not in man?

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#434402 - 04/07/11 11:44 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Sonny Offline


Registered: 11/24/10
Posts: 1835
Originally Posted By: Woody
Mal.3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."


Read the rest! "you are cursed with a curse". That's old covenant. Compare Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Tithing is not a condition of heaven. If it is heaven is for sale and so is salvation. Having said that, it makes since to support the church you attend.


Edited by Sonny (04/07/11 11:44 PM)

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#434404 - 04/07/11 11:47 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Sonny]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Sonny
Originally Posted By: Woody
Mal.3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."


Read the rest! "you are cursed with a curse". That's old covenant. Compare Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Tithing is not a condition of heaven. If it is heaven is for sale and so is salvation. Having said that, it makes since to support the church you attend.


Nothing's for sale. Believe me ... more people will be saved who DON'T pay tithe compared to those that DO. (At least according to Woody's prognistication.) Paying Tithe does not get you closer to heaven in any way. But those going to heaven ... often times do pay tithe. And for good reason.
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#434468 - 04/08/11 09:36 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Dr. Rich]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Dr. Rich
Ya Gerry, pray tell how William Miller and his group ever got the time and money to spread the news and get a group together as found in 1844? Huh?



And how were the priests supported in OT times?

ESV | Ac 6:2 And the twelve summoned the full number of the disciples and said, “It is not right that we should give up preaching the word of God to serve tables.

ESV | Dt 25:4 “You shall not muzzle an ox when it is treading out the grain.


Edited by Gerry Cabalo (04/08/11 09:37 AM)

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#434469 - 04/08/11 09:48 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Sonny]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Sonny
Originally Posted By: Woody
Mal.3:8 "Will a man rob God? Yet ye have robbed me. But ye say, Wherein have we robbed thee? In tithes and offerings."


Read the rest! "you are cursed with a curse". That's old covenant. Compare Gal 3:10 For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse; for it is written, "Cursed is everyone who does not continue in all things which are written in the book of the law, to do them."

Tithing is not a condition of heaven. If it is heaven is for sale and so is salvation. Having said that, it makes since to support the church you attend.


Tithing does not save, but stealing will certainly keep the thief out of heaven.

The practice of tithing came loooonnnnnggg before the Law.

"With their lips they show much love, but their pocketbooks are far from me." Paraphrase.

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#434496 - 04/08/11 11:27 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
The practice of tithing came loooonnnnnggg before the Law.


I was not aware that the angels paid tithe. But then I haven't read that they did't. thinking
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#434506 - 04/08/11 12:03 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
pkrause Offline


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 57893
Loc: Deltona, FL
Originally Posted By: Woody
I was not aware that the angels paid tithe. But then I haven't read that they did't. thinking


LOL Woody, but I believe he's talking about the time of Abraham!
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phkrause

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf while we were still sinners.

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#434510 - 04/08/11 12:14 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: pkrause]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: pkrause
Originally Posted By: Woody
I was not aware that the angels paid tithe. But then I haven't read that they did't. thinking


LOL Woody, but I believe he's talking about the time of Abraham!


Yes. But the law of God was before Abraham. It was in heaven first.
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#434516 - 04/08/11 12:24 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
pkrause Offline


Registered: 03/24/00
Posts: 57893
Loc: Deltona, FL
Originally Posted By: Woody
Yes. But the law of God was before Abraham. It was in heaven first.


Not sure what Gerry meant about the law. I meant that Abraham after rescuing Lot, I believe, he paid a tithe to the high priest of Salem. Not sure if that was the first time tithe had been paid or not? But that's what I was thinking.


Edited by pkrause (04/08/11 12:38 PM)
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phkrause

Romans 5:8: But God demonstrates his own love for us in that the Messiah died on our behalf while we were still sinners.

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#434520 - 04/08/11 12:32 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: pkrause]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
The law given at Sinai. The Covenant that became "Old Covenant" was also given at that time.

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#434521 - 04/08/11 12:35 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
The angels had the law prior to Sinai. So did humans. It was just because of the stupidity of the peoples that God had to give it in written form.


Edited by Woody (04/08/11 12:50 PM)
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#434650 - 04/08/11 07:43 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Musicman1228]
Overaged Offline
Born Twice


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 6189
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Musicman1228


As with other things Jesus put an end to tithing when He died on the cross.
Jesus did not put an end to "tithe" when He died on the cross. Show one Bible text that supports that please!

Maybe if we take your idea all the way; we could just give testimony to the world that we tithe so we can afford to buy more of these:



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_________________________
"People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)

"I cannot know why suddenly the storm
should rage so fiercely round me in it's wrath
But this I know: God watches all my path
And I can trust"

"God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - Overaged
Faith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ

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#434653 - 04/08/11 07:49 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Overaged]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
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Yum Yum Overaged.
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May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
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#434664 - 04/08/11 08:25 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Tallmark Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 03/23/08
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We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works.

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#434667 - 04/08/11 08:31 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Tallmark]
Woody Offline
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Registered: 12/09/06
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Originally Posted By: Tallmark
We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works.


Amen Tallmark.
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May we be one so that the world may be won.
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#434706 - 04/08/11 10:26 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10851
Loc: Western United States
Originally Posted By: Woody
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
Ex? Or present?


I doubt there are any present murders in heaven. But there are murderers. However ... once we get to heaven we will be transformed so we don't murder anymore. Praise God. For I would not want to go to heaven and experience what we have on Earth.


Can one enter heaven without tithing? Hmmmm thinking That's something like asking can we stay married without providing food for our spouse? Perhaps possible but very problematic.

"For I am jealous for you with the jealousy of God himself. I promised you as a pure bride to one husband—Christ. "2 Corinthians 11:2 NLT

As to are there murderers or adulterers in heaven? Decidedly not, if one accepts God's Word as reliable. And to tell you the truth, whether you believe His Word or not.

"Therefore if any person is [ingrafted] in Christ (the Messiah) he is a new creation (a new creature altogether); the old [previous moral and spiritual condition] has passed away. Behold, the fresh and new has come!"
2 Corinthians 5:17 AMP brackets parenthesis their's LHC

There will be no "old man of sin" to contend with, in heaven or the earth made new!

God blesses! peace
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#434709 - 04/08/11 10:37 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
LifeHiscost Offline



Registered: 06/14/03
Posts: 10851
Loc: Western United States
Originally Posted By: Woody


The symbolism is out of this world. No extortion needed. Just a love for God.


Good show, Woody. It's one of those principles of the Kingdom revealed by the Holy Spirit only to those who work for God out of a love for Him.

"Heal the sick, cleanse the lepers, raise the dead, cast out demons. Freely you have received, freely give."Matthew 10:8 NKJV

God blesses! peace
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#434710 - 04/08/11 10:38 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Tallmark]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Tallmark
We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works.


What do you mean by believing in Jesus? Do you mean all we have to do is believe that Jesus existed?

What does it mean to believe in Jesus?

How does John 3: 3 figure in?

John 3:3
Jesus answered him, "Truly, truly, I say to you, unless one is born again he cannot see the kingdom of God."




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#434712 - 04/08/11 10:45 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Woody
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
If thieves are admitted into heaven, so should idolaters and adulterers, and murderers, etc. etc.


Praise God Gerry. Yes, we do know that there will be idolaters and adulterers, and/or murderers in Heaven. In fact there already is.


The important difference is that whoever is in heaven (whether Moses or anyone else) was a repentent, ex-murderer long before they were transplanted to heaven.

It's like Paul says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.




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#434733 - 04/08/11 11:51 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Tallmark]
Overaged Offline
Born Twice


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 6189
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Tallmark
We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works.
Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29)


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_________________________
"People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)

"I cannot know why suddenly the storm
should rage so fiercely round me in it's wrath
But this I know: God watches all my path
And I can trust"

"God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - Overaged
Faith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ

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#434734 - 04/08/11 11:52 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: John317]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Quote:
The important difference is that whoever is in heaven (whether Moses or anyone else) was a repentent, ex-murderer long before they were transplanted to heaven.

It's like Paul says in 1 Cor. 6: 9-11:

1 Cor. 6:9-11
Do you not know that the unrighteous will not inherit the kingdom of God? Do not be deceived: neither the sexually immoral, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men who practice homosexuality, [10] nor thieves, nor the greedy, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor swindlers will inherit the kingdom of God. [11] And such were some of you. But you were washed, you were sanctified, you were justified in the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and by the Spirit of our God.


How 'ex must an 'ex be? Of course we know that even an 'ex would not be well accepted in our churches. Even David who was an 'ex and a man after God's heart ... was a repeat murderer after being a man after God's own heart.
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May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
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#434736 - 04/08/11 11:55 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Overaged]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Overaged
Originally Posted By: Tallmark
We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works.
Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29)


Are you saying that ALL are saved? Kinda sounds like it. If our belief is not important in the saving process ... then all must be saved. Am I reading you wrong?
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#434737 - 04/09/11 12:03 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Overaged Offline
Born Twice


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 6189
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Woody
quote=Overaged]
Originally Posted By: Tallmark
We get to heaven by believing in Jesus (John 3:16) not by tithe paying, Sabbath keeping, vegetarianism or any other "act" or self-works. /quote]Our "belief" does not save us; but our Savior saves us. (John 1:29)


Are you saying that ALL are saved? Kinda sounds like it. If our belief is not important in the saving process ... then all must be saved. Am I reading you wrong?
Either you are reading me wrong or I am not saying it right - I dunno. But what I mean is that If someone is saved; it would be by Jesus; and not because of belief. Which is our Savior? Jesus, or belief?

Belief has too many different meanings and nuances; and Jesus has only one way of salvation. It's called Calvary.
_________________________
"People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)

"I cannot know why suddenly the storm
should rage so fiercely round me in it's wrath
But this I know: God watches all my path
And I can trust"

"God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - Overaged
Faith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ

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#434738 - 04/09/11 12:05 AM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Overaged]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Okay. I think I understand better. There are all kinds of belief. But we just have the belief in Jesus as our Savior. We are called to believe on the name of the Lord Jesus Christ and we will be saved. Isn't that clear? For without faith it is impossible to please Him.
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#434830 - 04/09/11 01:53 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Haldog Offline
100% Saved by His Grace
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 03/27/09
Posts: 239
Loc: Kansas
There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel.
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#434831 - 04/09/11 01:57 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Haldog]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Haldog
There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel.


Aside whether there is or isn't ... IS IT NOT a great idea? What do you have against it. For it is SO beautiful.
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#434852 - 04/09/11 02:46 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Haldog]
Overaged Offline
Born Twice


Registered: 12/05/09
Posts: 6189
Loc: Canada
Originally Posted By: Haldog
There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel.
Was it actually a "commandment?" And was it actually a "covenant?" (Old or New?) What scriptures would you use to prove your point?
_________________________
"People [rarely] see...the bright light which is in the clouds..." (Job 37:21)

"I cannot know why suddenly the storm
should rage so fiercely round me in it's wrath
But this I know: God watches all my path
And I can trust"

"God helps us to draw strength from the storm" - Overaged
Faith makes things possible; it does not make them easy, Steps To Christ

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#434865 - 04/09/11 03:46 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Woody]
Stan Jensen Offline
Very Adventist


Registered: 09/15/06
Posts: 6037
Loc: Adventistan
My experience is this

Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations.

Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc.

Others may have had different experiences.
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#434868 - 04/09/11 04:08 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Haldog]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15423
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Haldog
There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel.


Are not the two greatest commandments also "old covenant"?

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#434878 - 04/09/11 04:25 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
RLH Offline
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 22239
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo
Originally Posted By: Haldog
There is no instruction whatsoever to the Church for us to pay tithe. It is an Old Covenent commandment to Israel.


Are not the two greatest commandments also "old covenant"?


Exactly!

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#434880 - 04/09/11 04:29 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Stan Jensen]
RLH Offline
Mr. Murphy's daddy


Registered: 07/07/09
Posts: 22239
Loc: North Carolina
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
My experience is this

Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations.

Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc.

Others may have had different experiences.



That's been my experience also.

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#434910 - 04/09/11 05:35 PM Re: Do you have to pay tithe to get to heaven? [Re: Stan Jensen]
fccool Offline


Registered: 01/15/08
Posts: 4065
Originally Posted By: Stan Jensen
My experience is this

Those who pay tithe usually have a stable Christian experience as well as stability in other areas in life, family, finance and other foundations.

Those who don't usually have a yo-yo kind of Christian experience etc etc.

Others may have had different experiences.


LOL

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