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Welcome with open arms fellow believers who don't see things the way you do.
And don't jump all over them every time they do or say something you don't agree with
- even when it seems that they are strong on opinions but weak in the faith department.
Remember, they have their own history to deal with. Treat them gently. Romans 14.1: The Message

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#442572 - 05/10/11 06:30 AM Was Jesus a wine bibber
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Okay, this question has been bothering me for sometime. Actually, I will clarify, it's not the question itself because I don't care if Jesus drank a few glasses of wine from time to time or not. But within the last few years I discovered a verse and when I asked three or four pastors about it they didn't know of the verse and when I showed it to them they gave me an unsatisfactory answer.

Matthew 11:19: “The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds.”

In this verse the implication is that Jesus eats a little and is called a glutton, he drinks a little and is called a drunkard. Doesn't seem that he could be called a drunkard for imbibing innocent grape juice. But I'm not a Biblical languages scholar, does anyone know the original words for these?

And, FYI, I think that he probably did, and it doesn't bother me, but my point of asking this question is to stimulate some uncomfortable thought among the less radical among this group.

So, did he or didn't he?

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#442574 - 05/10/11 06:45 AM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Parade Orange Offline



Registered: 01/15/05
Posts: 1986
Loc: hopefully in Church and not on...
i know what u r saying

and it does look that way but i always think how my enemies perceive me and my actions.

when someone hates u no matter what u do they will see you do a good thing and spin it off looking bad or insincere

i have family members who do this to other family members and its almost comical and very tragic to behold year after year

they put the worst motives on u if u r doing good and if u screw up in any way they act like its criminal

JESUS was watched constantly and the evil spin doctors used any and every occassion to take down HIS credibility as a good man.

and they assumed it was fermented also cause unfermented grape juice flowed along with the pure juice!

they even used the term FRIEND OF SINNERS like it was the worst thing to be called!

thank GOD He is a friend of sinners!
but i digress

i believe JESUS drank WELCHS grape juice and the spin the evil people put on it was to lie and imply he drinks fermented juice to turn others away.

cause when someone does good and u hate HIM you have to fib a little cause your whole purpose is to paint a bad picture to justify your own contempt when really there is nothing going on that is wrong


Edited by Parade Orange (05/10/11 08:24 AM)
_________________________
All progress in the Spiritual Life is knowing and Loving GOD
"there is non upon earth that I desire besides YOU" PS 73:25
That perspective changes EVERYTHING-suffering and adversity are the means that makes us hungry for GOD. Disapointments will wean us away wordly occupations. Even sin(when repented of) becomes a mechanism to push us closer to HIM as we experience His Love and Forgiveness.

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#442588 - 05/10/11 08:17 AM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Flyboy,


You may have something here.

It certainly appears that Jesus Christ drank wine. The Bible makes no prohibition against the drinking of fermented drink. However, the Bible is dead set against DRUNKENNESS!

Like you I am not bothered at all by Jesus Christ drinking fermented spirits.

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#442614 - 05/10/11 10:20 AM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: miz3]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: miz3
Flyboy,

You may have something here.

It certainly appears that Jesus Christ drank wine. The Bible makes no prohibition against the drinking of fermented drink. However, the Bible is dead set against DRUNKENNESS!

Like you I am not bothered at all by Jesus Christ drinking fermented spirits.


I simply can't see another explanation. I mentioned this to a very close SDA friend a while back and he just about booted me from the books then and there. I didn't press it because generally this is the response people give when they feel threatened. I asked a pastor friend and she didn't have much to say, "I'll check into it" or something like that.

Really, while the issue of Jesus drinking should not be a big deal for Christians, it is for SDA and thus I think this issue is an important one for us to consider... if for no other reason than it being a good starting point for a re-evaluation of other hard issues. Re-evaluation doesn't necessarily suggest a change in position, but it does suggest an open and honest discussion. I'd like to see that in my denomination, it would encourage me.

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#442656 - 05/10/11 12:22 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Tom Wetmore Offline
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 6930
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
I think Adventists attempting to spin the Word to conform to our contemporary Adventist sensibilities lack credibility if they try to push this sort of idea off on other Christians. The end result can be that we are not taken seriously on other matters as result. Its pretty much the same as the efforts not so long ago right here of some to make Jesus out to be a vegetarian...

It is the problem of creating a God in our own image - an Adventist Jesus, sort of like the artistic renditions of Him looking rather Northern European.

Jesus was a 1st Century Jew, eating and drinking what they did and living a typical Jewish life.

He drank the wine served, which would have had a bit of alcohol in it. He turned water into the best wedding celebration wine, that would made people drunk. He took a sip of the cheap sour wine offered to him on the cross. It had a bit of alcohol in it. Should we think the hardened Roman soldiers that gave it to him from what they had with them had been drinking stuff without alcohol in it? The common practice was to give the victim a bit of alcohol to help dull the pain.
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)

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#442657 - 05/10/11 12:22 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Dr. Rich Offline
RIP Dr Rich, you are missed


Registered: 02/12/08
Posts: 4008
Loc: California
Isaiah 25:6: "And the Lord of hosts will prepare a lavish banquet for all peoples on this mountain; a banquet of aged wine, choice pieces with marrow and refined AGED wine."

Deut. 14:26 "And you may spend the money (tithe) for whatever you heart desires, for oxen, or sheep, or WINE, or STRONG DRINK, or whatever your heart desires; and there you shall eat in the presence of the Lord your God and rejoice, you and your household."

Sounds like God enjoys a good party! (I wonder what the "choice pieces with marrow" could be?) Perhaps Vegalinks?

So, I do agree that Jesus did drink real wine and since he ate with the sinners who probably had unclean foods, Jesus probably ate that too. After all, didn't Jesus say it was NOT what goes into the mouth that defiles anyone, but what comes out?


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#442664 - 05/10/11 12:52 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Gail Offline

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29739
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
The wine in those days was most likely juice of the vine in various stages of fermentation, from fresh to alcoholic.

I also have a strong hunch that Jesus kept to the fresher stuff, and that the "best" wine that He created was the freshest.
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#442668 - 05/10/11 01:11 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Musicman1228 Offline


Registered: 06/19/09
Posts: 1859
Loc: CA
The SDA church teaches abstinence: The Scriptures teach temperance.

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#442669 - 05/10/11 01:11 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
shelly Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 172
Many SDA scholars do agree that the wine in the bible was at some point of fermentation. I think there was an article last year in Adventist Review that addressed that he wine in the bible did indeed contain alcohol but in lower amounts than it does today. In a desert environment it would be nearly impossible to have non-fermented juice after the first day. And like others have stated, the bible itself does not prohibit alcohol. It prohibits misues of alcohol. Although I do not drink, I don't believe the bible prohibits drinking alcohol provided one does not get drunk.

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#442673 - 05/10/11 01:30 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
Gary K Offline


Registered: 03/18/00
Posts: 1016
Flyboy,

Who was responsible for the accusations against Jesus that are bothering you? His friends? Neutral parties? His enemies?

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#442687 - 05/10/11 03:08 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Gail]
Tom Wetmore Offline
Latitudinarian


Registered: 06/21/00
Posts: 6930
Loc: Silver Spring, MD, USA
Gail, that is nice to think so but not too faithful to the gospel account...

Read very carefully the comment of the steward of the wedding about the wine Jesus had brought in. He asked why was this good stuff brought out last. He said this is the wine that is usually served first until the people are drunk. And once they are drunk on the good stuff, you bring out the less good wine when they are too drunk to care or tell the difference.
_________________________
"Absurdity reigns and confusion makes it look good."
"Sinless perfection is such a shallow goal."
"I love God only as much as the person I love the least."
*Forgiveness is always good news. And that is the gospel truth.
(And finally, the ideas expressed above are solely my person views and not that of any organization with which I am associated.)

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#442697 - 05/10/11 03:43 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Tom Wetmore]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
I think Adventists attempting to spin the Word to conform to our contemporary Adventist sensibilities lack credibility if they try to push this sort of idea off on other Christians. The end result can be that we are not taken seriously on other matters as result. Its pretty much the same as the efforts not so long ago right here of some to make Jesus out to be a vegetarian...

It is the problem of creating a God in our own image - an Adventist Jesus, sort of like the artistic renditions of Him looking rather Northern European.

Jesus was a 1st Century Jew, eating and drinking what they did and living a typical Jewish life.

He drank the wine served, which would have had a bit of alcohol in it. He turned water into the best wedding celebration wine, that would made people drunk. He took a sip of the cheap sour wine offered to him on the cross. It had a bit of alcohol in it. Should we think the hardened Roman soldiers that gave it to him from what they had with them had been drinking stuff without alcohol in it? The common practice was to give the victim a bit of alcohol to help dull the pain.


Good Points Tom. Even our prophet drank a little wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year.

_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#442702 - 05/10/11 03:59 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Tom Wetmore]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Dr. Samuele Bacchocchi wrote an excellent and thorough study on the topic of wine in the Bible. You may read it online at the following link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818027/Wine-in-the-Bible-unabridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi

In the above book, Bacchiocchi presents convincing evidence that the wine referred to in John 2 was non-intoxicating. The author also shows that the people of that time had ways of keeping the wine from fermenting.

Jesus wouldn't have gone contrary to the Bible's teaching about wine, a teaching that He Himself inspired the Bible writers to write.

For instance, in Prov. 23: 29-35 and Prov. 31: 4-7:

Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
[30] Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
[31] Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
[32] In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
[33] Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
[34] You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
[35] They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."



[4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine,
or for rulers to take strong drink,
[5] lest they drink and forget what has been decreed
and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
[6] Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
[7] let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

Or in Eph. 5: 18--

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

1 Thes. 5:6-8
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. [7] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

The wine Jesus made was non-intoxicating. The language doesn't require that the wine at the wedding be fermented.


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#442703 - 05/10/11 03:59 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Below is documented evidence that the word "wine" in John 2 is not necessarily fermented wine but the pure juice of the grape.

The usage of the word "wine" does NOT always infer a fermented beverage. It is a generic word (meaning fermented or unfermented), not only in the old & new testaments, but also in the secular world.

The following material is just a portion of a list which comes from F. R. Lees' work, The Bible Wine Question.

Aristotle ...new wine "it is WINE in name, but not in effect..." (4th century B.C.)


Callixenus ...they "were trampling on the grapes, and the NEW-WINE (gleukos) ran out over the whole road..." (300 B.C.)


Papias ..."Each grape shall yield 21`five and twenty measures of WINE (oinos)..." (90 A.D.)


Babylonian paraphrase on Genesis 27:25 speaks of "WINE reserved in its grapes."


The Gemara speaks of "WINE preserved in its grapes."
Suidas... "GLEUKUS ...the droppings of the grapes before being trodden..." (950 A.D.)


Sir Thomas Herbert speaks of WINE gotten from wounding the Toddy Tree and catching the juice (1638 A.D.)


John Parkinson under the heading "Vines" says: "The juice or liquor pressed out of the ripe grape is called VINUM, WINE..." (1640 A.D.)


Henry Southwell speaking of martyrs said that they were "like grapes when pressed, they yield luxuriant WINE" (1660 A.D.)


Thomas Blount speaks of must as NEW-WINE, or, "that which is first pressed out of the grape." (1670 A.D.)


Edward Phillips says of must, "WINE newly pressed from the grapes (1670 A.D.)


J.W. Gent speaks of "WINE-cinder" and "cherry-WINE." The juice of the cherry is "gently pressed" and makes "a very pleasant WINE" (1676 A.D.)


W. Robertson, "WINE; Vinum ... New-WINE; Mustum - New WINE that runs out with-out pressing." (1693 A.D.)


Thomas Sprat speaks of vessels into which is put "cute or unfermented WINE." (1702 A.D.)


J.M. Gesner says: "Once for all it must be observed, that the words VINUM (wine), VITIS (vine), UVAE (grape-clusters), and VINEA (vineyard), as kindred terms are sometimes used synonymously..." and "The juice of apples, pears, pomegranates, and sorbs, was called VINUM." (1730 A.D.)


Miller's Gardener's Dictionary: "The first time they lower the great beams upon the grapes, they (the French) call the WINE that runs out the WINE of Guotte, because it is the finest and most exquisite in the grape ... The WINE strains from the press into a puncheon ... Vin Bourra, as they call it, i.e., a new and sweet white WINE that has not worked..." (1748 A.D.)


E. Chambers speaks of, "Sweet WINE" which has not yet fermented; WINE which is called "Mere-goutte," mother-drop, which is the virgin-WINE; Burnt WINE is "boiled up with sugar." (1750 A.D.)


Samuel Johnson speaks of Must as "New WINE" (1773 A.D.)


John Parkhurst tells of Ovid applying the Latin "mecum" to mean "pure WINE as it is pressed out of the grapes."


J.F. Schleusner: "OINOS; generally VINUM liquor expressed from grapes whether new or old ...OINOS neos, VINUM novum i.e., must, alias gleukos...GLEUKOS, prop erly the liquor which drops from the grape before treading." (1810 A.D.)


Gesenius (in the last edition of his lexicon, 1844): "TIROSH, must, of the juice of the grape." (1844 A.D.)


James Donegan: "GLEUKOS; new, unfermented WINE, must ...SIRAION...a WINE prepared by boiling grapes..." (1826A.D.)


Noah Webster: "Must, New WINE; wine pressed from the grape but not fermented." (1828 A.D.)


S. Lee: "Ahsis; Literally, trodden. New WINE; the juice of the grape..." (1830 A.D.)


John Avenarius has: "Ahsis - mustum, which is recently expressed juice. German susz: susur WEIN..." (1588 A.D.)


Dr. Ure: "Juice, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and in common language sweet WINE." (1836 A.D.)


H. Bullinger speaks of WINE running out of the wine-press (1573 A.D.)


Bretschneider: "Oinos neos, mustum. Sept. for ahsis and tirosh. 2...Gleukos, mustum. That which drops from the grapes before being trodden. Acts 2:13. Job 32:19 where the Hebrew is yayin." (1840A.D.)


Baron Liebig: "If a flask be filled with grape juice and made air-tight, and then kept for a few hours in boiling water. .. THE WINE does not now ferment." (1844 A.D.)


Encyclopedia Americana (1855): "The juice of the grape, when newly expressed, and before it has begun to ferment, is called must, and, in common language, SWEET WINE."

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#442704 - 05/10/11 04:01 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Quote:
Really, while the issue of Jesus drinking should not be a big deal for Christians, it is for SDA and thus I think this issue is an important one for us to consider... if for no other reason than it being a good starting point for a re-evaluation of other hard issues. Re-evaluation doesn't necessarily suggest a change in position, but it does suggest an open and honest discussion. I'd like to see that in my denomination, it would encourage me.



We should be always re-evaluating. Unfortunately, I find in our SDA community a strong resistance to re-evaluation especially if such re-examining entails long held cherished views.

I also think that Tom Wetmore has brought up some particularly cogent points on this thread.

I also like what Woody pointed out about our Prophet. Yet her writings correctly advocate avoiding intemperance (drunkenness in this case).

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#442705 - 05/10/11 04:07 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Woody]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Woody
.. Even our prophet drank a little wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year.



I think this statement is liable to give readers the wrong impression.

What is the evidence that she drank fermented wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year?



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#442707 - 05/10/11 04:30 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
John317,

It is clear from scripture that the Children of Israel drank fermented wine and God never tells them that doing so is and was a sin.

God does not like "drunkenness". (that's a sin)

Remember the story of Aaron's two sons who were killed in the Sanctuary by the Lord. Does God then prohibit the drinking of fermented drink, NO! God commanded that the priests must do there duty only when sober.

Also, there is this from the "Nazarene Vow":


"The LORD said to Moses, 2 “Speak to the Israelites and say to them: ‘If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, 3 he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins. 4 As long as he is a Nazirite, he must not eat anything that comes from the grapevine, not even the seeds or skins."
Numbers 6:1-5.

The Bible does use the term in which the drink is indeed fermented. Playing word games with this subject has been a long standing practice within SDA circles. Let's face the Truth, the wine was fermented and Jesus appears to be apart of using the stuff.

Vinegar, is also a fermented form. Vinegar is used in many of the products we all use. Thus we are all getting a distilled spirit of some kind whether we like it or not. I was not aware that SDA have a prohibition against using "mayonnaise" which has vinegar as a big ingredient. Come to think of it so does ketchup and mustard. Stuff I have seen at many a potluck!

Whether it is direct or indirect we still get it in the fermented form.

Why do SDA have to play games with things like this. Can't we be just straight up.

Its about "QUANTITY" in this case. Too much----is a NO!, NO!


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#442711 - 05/10/11 04:50 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: miz3]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Have you read Bacchiocchi's book, Wine in the Bible? He shows very good evidence and argument that the wine referred to in John 2 was non-intoxicating.

Do you believe that the God of heaven as a man performed a miracle at a wedding to give people intoxicating wine that would make them drunk? How many gallons are we talking about? Between 120 and 180 gallons. That's a lot of liquer if it was fermented wine.

What are the consequences of believing that Jesus Christ performed a miracle which resulted in getting people drunk?

That means the entire Godhead was involved in people becoming intoxicated with liquer.

We need to think seriously, and pray, about the evidence supporting such a belief, and we need to think seriously about whether the Bible portrays a God who would do this. Finally, what has God inspired His latter-day prophet to write about this topic?

Is the linguistic and historical evidence strong enough to warrant casting off the writings of Ellen White and believing that Jesus Christ acted contrary to His own counsel in His word by putting intoxicants to the lips of those peopele for whom He would soon shed His precious life-blood?

Of Jesus, the testimony of the Bible is:

Hebrews 1:9
You have loved righteousness and hated wickedness;
therefore God, your God, has anointed you
with the oil of gladness beyond your companions."

John 15:10
... I have kept my Father's commandments and abide in his love.

1 Peter 5:8
Be sober-minded; be watchful. Your adversary the devil prowls around like a roaring lion, seeking someone to devour.












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#442713 - 05/10/11 05:00 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
shelly Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 172
John, the idea that if Jesus supplied wine he was promoting drunkeness is reaching. Alcohol is not the problem, it is the misuse. Even food can be used incorrectly leading to the sin of gluttoney. No one would say providing a large banquet would promote gluttoney. As stated before, intoxication is a sin. The bible never prohibits drinking without getting drunk. It is a logical argument that we should not drink. However, the bible does not support abstaining from alcohol. We need to be careful not to try to make logical conclusions into "truth". We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.

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#442718 - 05/10/11 05:21 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: shelly]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Consider this:

1) Neither the language nor the context shows that the wine was alcoholic.

2) There is good evidence that the people of that time used the word translated "wine" in John 2 to refer to pure grape juice.

3) Jesus made between 120 and 180 gallons of wine. How many people would that amount of liquer make drunk?

4) Does it make biblical sense that the God of heaven could make non-intoxicating wine but instead chose purposely to make liquer on which people would almost certainly get drunk?

5) The prophet of God has written clearly that it was not fermented wine.

6) The Bible's counsel is that people not drink intoxicatants. These counsels were written by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

7) People shouldn't decide the issue until they have studied Bacchiochi's book on wine in the Bible. His book convinced me to stop drinking alcohol. I did not begin reading the book with the desire to quit drinking. I loved vodka and every other kind of liquer.

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#442719 - 05/10/11 05:23 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Tom Wetmore]
Gail Offline

Mom to lots of chickies


Registered: 12/09/02
Posts: 29739
Loc: Buon giorno, Principessa
Originally Posted By: Tom Wetmore
Gail, that is nice to think so but not too faithful to the gospel account...

Read very carefully the comment of the steward of the wedding about the wine Jesus had brought in. He asked why was this good stuff brought out last. He said this is the wine that is usually served first until the people are drunk. And once they are drunk on the good stuff, you bring out the less good wine when they are too drunk to care or tell the difference.


Except that the account doesn't say that the guests "are" well drunk. It says that they "have" well drunk. For all we know it could be that they are well into the meal/event and it's not as important that the food and drink be as perfect as when first served. It's like at a potluck- you serve the best food and drink first and then bring out the other kool-aid-flavoured watery stuff after everybody else has already had a turn at the better one.

There is a French saying that goes, "J'ai bien mangé, j'ai bien bu." (I've eaten well, I drank well.) Just because a person has well drunk doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is drunk.

It was a French Bible which taught me that there is a difference in the Bible between wine and juice, because they use a different word. In Isaiah it talks about "being drunk... as with sweet wine" The word for "sweet wine" is the word (in the Louis Segond) for grape juice, as it is in the grape, the "must". I guess you can get as drunk on juice in the Old Testament as you can in the New.
_________________________
Gail

A heart set on love will do no wrong- Confucius

And the work of righteousness shall be peace; and the effect of righteousness quietness and assurance for ever. Isaiah 32:17

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#442721 - 05/10/11 05:30 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Originally Posted By: shelly
John, the idea that if Jesus supplied wine he was promoting drunkeness is reaching. Alcohol is not the problem, it is the misuse. Even food can be used incorrectly leading to the sin of gluttoney. No one would say providing a large banquet would promote gluttoney. As stated before, intoxication is a sin. The bible never prohibits drinking without getting drunk. It is a logical argument that we should not drink. However, the bible does not support abstaining from alcohol. We need to be careful not to try to make logical conclusions into "truth". We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.




PERFECT!

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#442723 - 05/10/11 05:35 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: shelly]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: shelly
... We are a bible based church. When we, like so many others, try to make the bible fit the conclusions we have already established we loose our distinctiveness.


1 Thes. 5:19-22
Do not quench the Spirit. [20] Do not despise prophecies, [21] but test everything; hold fast what is good. [22] Abstain from every form of evil.

1 Thes. 5:7-8
For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

Rev. 14:12
Here is a call for the endurance of the saints, those who keep the commandments of God and their faith in Jesus.

For those who still believe in the propheic ministry of Ellen G. White:

Quote:
At the time of the birth of John the people generally were addicted to the use of unfermented wine. At the wedding feast in Cana, Christ turned the water into wine. By a miracle he transformed the water into the pure juice of the grape. Wine is good only when it is not fermented. It is then harmless; yet, notwithstanding this, the Lord God of heaven laid down the prohibition that John was to drink neither wine nor strong drink. Unfermented wine soon became sour in Palestine, and neither sweet wine nor sour wine was to pass the lips of John. Christ knew all things; he looked down the ages to our own time, and saw what would be the condition of society in the close of the world's history. He saw thousands upon thousands perishing in the use of wine and strong drink. The world would gradually come into the same state as it was in the days before the flood. But heaven has lifted a danger signal, that men may take warning, and cooperate with God for their own self-preservation. He has given us examples of absolute abstinence, and provided instruction that, if followed, will result in the creation and preservation of the vigor, skill, and excellency of our children. {ST, April 16, 1896 par. 3}


NOTE: The historical, linguistic, and exegetical evidence supports the words of God's prophet, Ellen White. Let everyone study and be persuaded in his own mind.











_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#442724 - 05/10/11 05:52 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Gail]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Gail
Except that the account doesn't say that the guests "are" well drunk. It says that they "have" well drunk. For all we know it could be that they are well into the meal/event and it's not as important that the food and drink be as perfect as when first served. It's like at a potluck- you serve the best food and drink first and then bring out the other kool-aid-flavoured watery stuff after everybody else has already had a turn at the better one.

There is a French saying that goes, "J'ai bien mangé, j'ai bien bu." (I've eaten well, I drank well.) Just because a person has well drunk doesn't necessarily mean that s/he is drunk.



This is exactly right. The word as it is used in John 3 means "to drink freely."

Just because the people of that day had a practice of giving the best intoxicating wine at the beginnning, and then giving the worst after everyone is drunk, does not mean that Jesus made fermented wine. All the man was saying was that people usually serve the best wine first, not last.

Another point is that if the people at this wedding were already drunk, it would mean Jesus' miracle of making 130-180 gallons of fermented wine got people even more drunk. I find it impossible to believe our heavenly High Priest did that.
_________________________
John 3:16-17
For God so loved the world, that he gave his only Son, that whoever believes in him should not perish but have eternal life. [17] For God did not send his Son into the world to condemn the world, but in order that the world might be saved through him.


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#442726 - 05/10/11 05:55 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
shelly Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 172
John, the scriptures you have supplied only strengthen the argument that drukeness is the sin, not the wine. As far as the EGW quote, I cannot understand how people were addicted to non-fermented wine. Why are individuals today not addicted to grape juice. And if so, shouldn't we abstain from grape juice based on its addictive nature? I would file this under her "non-inpired" opinion. If the wine was not fermented why were decons instructed to not drink to much and elders forbidden to drink wine. If it was truely unfermented juice, why was it so important that those in positions of authority were to be drink very little or not at all. I guess EGW would chalk it up to the grape-juice addiction. Further more, if the individuals of that time were truly addicted to grape juice, why would Jesus feed their addiction at the wedding?

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#442728 - 05/10/11 05:57 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Originally Posted By: John317
Consider this:

1) Neither the language nor the context shows that the wine was alcoholic.

2) There is good evidence that the people of that time used the word translated "wine" in John 2 to refer to pure grape juice.

3) Jesus made between 120 and 180 gallons of wine. How many people would that amount of liquer make drunk?

4) Does it make biblical sense that the God of heaven could make non-intoxicating wine but instead chose purposely to make liquer on which people would almost certainly get drunk?

5) The prophet of God has written clearly that it was not fermented wine.

6) The Bible's counsel is that people not drink intoxicatants. These counsels were written by the Spirit of Jesus Christ.

7) People shouldn't decide the issue until they have studied Bacchiochi's book on wine in the Bible. His book convinced me to stop drinking alcohol. I did not begin reading the book with the desire to quit drinking. I loved vodka and every other kind of liquer.



1. Ok, John let's just say John chapter 2 is fuzzy.

2. On the language issue, Numbers chapter six demonstrates that the Jews had words for all the stages of drink and that they were not handicapped in this regard. So if it says "wine" it is wine because they have a word for non intoxicants and they did not use that word.

3. You have a strong point in those terms. I agree that would make a lot of people drunk. That is actually staggering.

4. Again, you make a strong point. God is capable either way it goes. The unknown question is which way did Christ go?

5. Again, you are correct. Ellen White is not ambiguous on this story. She flat out says it was "grape juice". No wiggle room here and you can't make any either.

6. The Bible nowhere states that a person should not drink intoxicants. Only, in Numbers 6 a special specific case is such a prohibition given. It is clear that many of God's chosen people in the Bible drank intoxicants and neither God nor any of His prophets said that doing such was wrong! They do not even say, "we suggest, or we recommend". The Bible takes this practice as a factual practice that is OK by God.

7. I was not aware that Bacciochi or Bacchiochi's book was "inspired". He is entitled to his opinion. We all know that although Mr. Bacciochi may be a good man, he is a hired entity by the SDA Church to trouble shoot difficult theological problems.

Yes, the SDA Church has its "hired guns" so to speak. As such we can hardly recommend Mr Bacciochi or his book as being a fair and unbiased assessment.

Besides we need the Holy Spirit not Mr. Bacciochi to interpret what God is saying in His Word. SDA Church has a number of "interpreters" of Holy Scripture which they hope will keep the SDA membership in theological line. This of course is not a secret because the practice has gone on for decades since the death of our dear Prophet Sister White. I know this because I know some of the "hired guns" over many years.

8. Personally I can't stand intoxicant drink especially beer. Just the smell of beer makes me nauseated. I also don't see any upside value enough for me to waste my money on such stuff. I will waste my money in ways that please me much more.

I am amazed that people testify a love for the stuff. Wow!

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#442729 - 05/10/11 06:01 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
Woody Offline
Swiss n Swedish American


Registered: 12/09/06
Posts: 32151
Loc: A citizen of Heaven
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: Woody
.. Even our prophet drank a little wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year.



I think this statement is liable to give readers the wrong impression.

What is the evidence that she drank fermented wine when she felt a little down on occassions through the year?


James White had this to say about his wife:

Quote:
"During the past year, she may have used one pint of wine. It is only in extreme cases that the use of wine is justifiable, and then let it be a ‘little wine,’ to gently stimulate those in a sinking condition.” {MOTL 310.6}


Now if this was just grape juice - do you really think the advice of it's use only in extreme cases would have been made? And why would our prophet limit grape juice to only a pint when she had that "sinking condition"?

Like Shelly mentioned - Praise God our prophet didnt' have a grape juice addiction. Apparently she was very cautious to avoid such addictions. lol

The lengths people will go to preserve their biases.

For full disclosure: Personally I have never had so much as even one drop of alcohol in my entire life. Don't plan to. But I do drink lots of fruit juices. And I don't limit it to one pint. lol

Our prophet drank far more wine than I have ever had.

We need to go about the work of sharing Present Truth today - not present myths.


Edited by Woody (05/10/11 06:30 PM)
_________________________
May we be one so that the world may be won.
Christian from the cradle to the grave
I believe in Hematology.

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#442730 - 05/10/11 06:01 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
rudywoofs Online   durdurdur
exwitch, researcher, Dash's Mom


Registered: 07/15/05
Posts: 9378
Miz3, you are misspelling "Bacchiochi" as "Bacciochi"... I know you'd want to have this correct.
_________________________
Pam

Meddle Not In the Affairs of Dragons; for You Are Crunchy and Taste Good with Ketchup.

Mr. Watson, come here. I need marshmallows, chocolate and a heat source. - Alexander Graham Cracker

If we all sang the same note in the choir, there'd never be any harmony.

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#442733 - 05/10/11 06:08 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Originally Posted By: Shelly
John, the scriptures you have supplied only strengthen the argument that drukeness is the sin, not the wine. As far as the EGW quote, I cannot understand how people were addicted to non-fermented wine. Why are individuals today not addicted to grape juice. And if so, shouldn't we abstain from grape juice based on its addictive nature? I would file this under her "non-inpired" opinion. If the wine was not fermented why were decons instructed to not drink to much and elders forbidden to drink wine. If it was truely unfermented juice, why was it so important that those in positions of authority were to be drink very little or not at all. I guess EGW would chalk it up to the grape-juice addiction. Further more, if the individuals of that time were truly addicted to grape juice, why would Jesus feed their addiction at the wedding?




Shelly, you are absolutely impressive. I couldn't agree more! That is a cogent a remark as I have ever heard. I am impressed to the max!

WOW!

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#442736 - 05/10/11 06:21 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
miz3 Offline


Registered: 04/02/11
Posts: 4284
Originally Posted By: rudywoofs
Miz3, you are misspelling "Bacchiochi" as "Bacciochi"... I know you'd want to have this correct.



Thank you rudywoofs. I stand corrected. I thought I was doing it correctly but obviously I wasn't.

Thanks again.



By the way very cogent remarks Woody concerning our Prophet and her drinking habits. Thank you. The Truth is always healthy.

We can make fun, and rightly so, of the Prophet's clear blunder in regard to "grape juice addiction". However, making a stupid blunder does not disqualify one from being truly inspired. She clearly was not inspired in that statement, just as Moses blundered when he spoke to Israel and then "struck" the rock. Moses was not inspired in that moment and Ellen White was not inspired on the "grape juice addiction" comment.

However, like Moses we then cannot discount everything and say that because of their horrid blunder they cannot be "inspired" about anything because they both have clear "inspired" communications in my view.

This a great example of how a Prophet of God is not a 24/7 Prophet in the "on" position all the time.

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#442738 - 05/10/11 06:45 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Gary K]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: Gary K
Flyboy,

Who was responsible for the accusations against Jesus that are bothering you? His friends? Neutral parties? His enemies?


It doesn't bother me at all, in fact, I quite enjoy it. What bothers me is that generally SDA will come up with the "it wasn't wine, it was grape juice" argument because we have become so comfortable in what we consider the truth.

Whether he drank grape juice or wine, I don't care, but I can promise you that if Jesus were a church elder today and a church member was at the grocery store standing behind him at the check-out line and noticed a bottle of wine in his cart, well... he wouldn't be an elder much longer.

Must say that from the posts I've read thus far in response to this, I am refreshed. It seems people are willing to consider the possibility, and are okay with it. I don't drink, and I think abstinence is okay, as is temperance, but we should not change the Bible to fit our ideas.

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#442740 - 05/10/11 06:51 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: John317
Dr. Samuele Bacchocchi wrote an excellent and thorough study on the topic of wine in the Bible. You may read it online at the following link:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/7818027/Wine-in-the-Bible-unabridged-by-Samuele-Bacchiocchi

In the above book, Bacchiocchi presents convincing evidence that the wine referred to in John 2 was non-intoxicating. The author also shows that the people of that time had ways of keeping the wine from fermenting.

Jesus wouldn't have gone contrary to the Bible's teaching about wine, a teaching that He Himself inspired the Bible writers to write.

For instance, in Prov. 23: 29-35 and Prov. 31: 4-7:

Who has woe? Who has sorrow?
Who has strife? Who has complaining?
Who has wounds without cause?
Who has redness of eyes?
[30] Those who tarry long over wine;
those who go to try mixed wine.
[31] Do not look at wine when it is red,
when it sparkles in the cup
and goes down smoothly.
[32] In the end it bites like a serpent
and stings like an adder.
[33] Your eyes will see strange things,
and your heart utter perverse things.
[34] You will be like one who lies down in the midst of the sea,
like one who lies on the top of a mast.
[35] They struck me," you will say, "but I was not hurt;
they beat me, but I did not feel it.
When shall I awake?
I must have another drink."



[4] It is not for kings, O Lemuel,
it is not for kings to drink wine,
or for rulers to take strong drink,
[5] lest they drink and forget what has been decreed
and pervert the rights of all the afflicted.
[6] Give strong drink to the one who is perishing,
and wine to those in bitter distress;
[7] let them drink and forget their poverty
and remember their misery no more.

Or in Eph. 5: 18--

And do not get drunk with wine, for that is debauchery, but be filled with the Spirit,

1 Thes. 5:6-8
So then let us not sleep, as others do, but let us keep awake and be sober. [7] For those who sleep, sleep at night, and those who get drunk, are drunk at night. [8] But since we belong to the day, let us be sober, having put on the breastplate of faith and love, and for a helmet the hope of salvation.

The wine Jesus made was non-intoxicating. The language doesn't require that the wine at the wedding be fermented.



I see no words in there that say one should not drink. It appears to say that people should not get drunk.

And my original question is not about Jesus first miracle, which has been beat to death for years. It is about Matthew 11:19, in which Jesus says "I eat and drink a little and you call me a glutton and drunkard". The implication from Jesus own mouth is clear. But, again, as in my original post, someone familiar with Biblical languages could shed more light on these words of Jesus.

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#442742 - 05/10/11 06:53 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: miz3]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: miz3
Its about "QUANTITY" in this case. Too much----is a NO!, NO!



My experience with drinking alcohol is that once people start drinking it, they frequently don't have good judgment and therefore don't know when to stop. Most people don't only have one or two drinks and then stop. If you don't believe it, go to a place where there's drinking, and you will see many people who are obviously intoxicated.

One thing we can say for sure is that if a person never takes that first drinkk of alcohol, he won't become an alcoholic. At any large gathering where alcohol is being served, it's likely there are people who will go on to become habitiual drinkers. Jesus of course knows this. I don't believe that God in human flesh would perform a miracle that would result in people getting drunk.


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#442743 - 05/10/11 06:57 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
shelly Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 172
miz3,

I have to agree with you that one mispoken line or misguided execution of God's will does not disquallify EGW from being a prophet. I believe that God revealed to her certain truths for his church. However, I think the statement under discussion is her opinion rather than "prophecy". EGW was a prohibitionist before becoming a SDA. Here revelation that alcohol was a "sin" predated her role as the prophet for the SDA church. After all of that, I do not drink. I have had a sip here and there but I can say I have never had a full serving of an alcoholic beverage. Given my family history, it would be unwise for me to drink. I also think that avoiding alcohol is a good choice for many as it is a sure way to avoid drukeness. I don't disagree with the churches councel to abstain from alcohol, I just don't think abstenence is biblically based.

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#442744 - 05/10/11 07:02 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: John317
Below is documented evidence that the word "wine" in John 2 is not necessarily fermented wine but the pure juice of the grape.


I have no problem accepting that there were all kinds of wine, fermented and non, and I have no interest in a debate about the first miracle, as SDA seemingly have their mind made up about this and because there is no proof either way. My question points to Matthew 11:19 where Jesus, with his own mouth, specifically implies that he has drank fermented wine.

"They see me eating and drinking and call me a glutton and drunkard." What could he be eating? Non-food? Food of course. What can he be drinking then? Fermented wine it seems. The comparison of eating and drinking together, with the compared results of gluttony and drunkenness.... seems temperance was the standard of the day, not abstinence.

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#442745 - 05/10/11 07:03 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
shelly Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/06/10
Posts: 172
Originally Posted By: John317
Originally Posted By: miz3
Its about "QUANTITY" in this case. Too much----is a NO!, NO!



My experience with drinking alcohol is that once people start drinking it, they frequently don't have good judgment and therefore don't know when to stop. Most people don't only have one or two drinks and then stop. If you don't believe it, go to a place where there's drinking, and you will see many people who are obviously intoxicated.

One thing we can say for sure is that if a person never takes that first drinkk of alcohol, he won't become an alcoholic. At any large gathering where alcohol is being served, it's likely there are people who will go on to become habitiual drinkers. Jesus of course knows this. I don't believe that God in human flesh would perform a miracle that would result in people getting drunk.



I actually know plenty of people who only have 1 glass with dinner or socially. There are many chrisitians who drink but are careful not to become drunk. I also know that there are SDA who also enjoy a glass or two of wine with dinner so long as they do not get drunk. The question of drinking came up in a Sabbath School class and I was shocked that about 1/3 of the class admitted to drinking but not to getting drunk. I found it to be an eye opening expereince. It seems that the church has some many "fundamental beliefs" that do not reflect the true belief system that is embraced by its memebers. But that is another topic for another time.

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#442749 - 05/10/11 07:29 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: Flyboy]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Flyboy
I see no words in there that say one should not drink. It appears to say that people should not get drunk.


Most people who drink aren't very good judges of when to stop drinking. They typically drink past the time when they should stop. Most people drink in order to get high, or feel the buzz, and many actually drink in order to get drunk, "soused."

Telling people only to drink a little bit is like telling people only to sin a little bit. It is bad advice. Both sin and alcohol are highly addictive.

Quote:
And my original question is not about Jesus first miracle, which has been beat to death for years. It is about Matthew 11:19, in which Jesus says "I eat and drink a little and you call me a glutton and drunkard". The implication from Jesus own mouth is clear. But, again, as in my original post, someone familiar with Biblical languages could shed more light on these words of Jesus.


Matt. 11: 19 says no such thing as what you claim above. Not sure where you get that translation, but it is not accurate. The Greek word is pino and simply means to drink or imbibe. There is no indication of "little" at all. It is Strongs #4095. The same word is used in Matt. 6: 25. Notice it does not say "drink a little." Look it up in Young's Literal translation or in the New American Standard or the Engslish Standard Version.

What Jesus is talking about is the fact that the Son of man comes and enjoys life, and he is falsely accused of being a drunkard. In other words, there are people who are out to find things for which they can falsely acccused Christ even though there is no reason for it. Remember that Jesus avoided all appearances of evil. He followed the advice He gives us in the Bible through His holy prophets and apostles.

I take pictures of people in all kinds of situations, and these are two that show what alcohol frequently does to people. They did not start out drinking with the intention of ending up like this:



Attachments
Drunk-At-the-Races,-CA,-'82#1.jpg

ManAtMyWindow, (Detail), LA.jpg



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#442756 - 05/10/11 07:51 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: shelly]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Yeah, and a few years ago, I could have told you I was on female hormones and living with a man and about to have a sex change. I was a member of the SDA church and my cupboards had a lot of alcohol in them. In fact they were in there right up to about two years ago, although I stopped drinking about 3 years before. Does that mean my actions represented the truth that we believe as a people?

Are we going to look to people as our role models or to Christ? Are we going to believe uninspried men or are we going to believe and obey the directions we've been given by God through the prophet He gave to us?

Do we want to be ready for Jesus to come or do we want to live like the world?

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#442765 - 05/10/11 08:31 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: John317
What Jesus is talking about is the fact that the Son of man comes and enjoys life, and he is falsely accused of being a drunkard. In other words, there are people who are out to find things for which they can falsely acccused Christ even though there is no reason for it. Remember that Jesus avoided all appearances of evil. He followed the advice He gives us in the Bible through His holy prophets and apostles.


Take your pick from the options below mate, but the implication is clear. And if Jesus is talking about enjoying life, and didn't mean to suggest that he was drinking alcohol, perhaps He could have chosen different words.

As for avoiding the appearance of evil, this is purely your interpretation that having a glass of wine is, or appears to be, evil. When I go out for dinner and see someone drinking a glass of wine I don't automatically say to myself, "oh, that evil person", or "oh, they sure look evil". I do feel pity for people whose lifestyle dictates more reliance on alcohol though.

I think that the SDA church's view on alcohol is good, no other church has a better health message. But I do not agree that the church should teach that Jesus definitively did not drink alcohol and that the Bible forbids it when there is no such proof. We should teach abstinence first, and beyond that, if someone feels that they do not want to do that, then we should teach temperance and, more importantly, we should not make a person who enjoys a glass of wine every now and then feel out of place or judged. Even though I do not drink I have felt that this issue is one of the many litmus tests of being a real Adventist. This disturbs me.

New International Version (©1984)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Here is a glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and "sinners."' But wisdom is proved right by her actions."

New Living Translation (©2007)
The Son of Man, on the other hand, feasts and drinks, and you say, 'He's a glutton and a drunkard, and a friend of tax collectors and other sinners!' But wisdom is shown to be right by its results."

English Standard Version (©2001)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, ‘Look at him! A glutton and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!’ Yet wisdom is justified by her deeds.”

New American Standard Bible (©1995)
"The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Yet wisdom is vindicated by her deeds."

International Standard Version (©2008)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Look, a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' Absolved from every act of sin, is wisdom by her kith and kin."

GOD'S WORD® Translation (©1995)
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and people say, 'Look at him! He's a glutton and a drunk, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' "Yet, wisdom is proved right by its actions."

King James Bible
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

American King James Version
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold a man gluttonous, and a drunkard, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified of her children.

American Standard Version
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.

Bible in Basic English
The Son of man has come feasting, and they say, See, a lover of food and wine, a friend of tax-farmers and sinners! And wisdom is judged to be right by her works.

Douay-Rheims Bible
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say: Behold a man that is a glutton and a wine drinker, a friend of publicans and sinners. And wisdom is justified by her children.

Darby Bible Translation
The Son of man has come eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a man that is eating and wine-drinking, a friend of tax-gatherers, and of sinners: and wisdom has been justified by her children.

English Revised Version
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a gluttonous man, and a winebibber, a friend of publicans and sinners! And wisdom is justified by her works.

Webster's Bible Translation
The Son of man came eating and drinking, and they say, Behold, a man gluttonous, and a wine-bibber, a friend of publicans and sinners. But wisdom is justified by her children.

Weymouth New Testament
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they exclaim, 'See this man! --given to gluttony and tippling, and a friend of tax-gatherers and notorious sinners!' And yet Wisdom is vindicated by her actions."

World English Bible
The Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, 'Behold, a gluttonous man and a drunkard, a friend of tax collectors and sinners!' But wisdom is justified by her children."

Young's Literal Translation
the Son of Man came eating and drinking, and they say, Lo, a man, a glutton, and a wine-drinker, a friend of tax-gatherers and sinners, and wisdom was justified of her children.'

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#442770 - 05/10/11 08:39 PM Re: Was Jesus a wine bibber [Re: John317]
Flyboy Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 04/29/11
Posts: 169
Loc: China
Originally Posted By: John317
Are we going to look to people as our role models or to Christ? Are we going to believe uninspried men or are we going to believe and obey the directions we've been given by God through the prophet He gave to us?

Do we want to be ready for Jesus to come or do we want to live like the world?


I don't think anyone is suggesting we uphold any human, and that is my point in asking this question. The words of Jesus tell us one thing, but many here will uphold the institution of the SDA church and its beliefs before they will consider changing their views to follow the words of Jesus.

My point is not that the church is wrong, rather it is that in my experience the church is so unwilling to consider it may be wrong, so sure that it already has every kernel of truth possible to mankind, that it will not look at issues that may reveal not just further truth but ultimately may help them build a more effective ministry. People respond to rational logic. People reject dogma.

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