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#462808 - 07/22/11 07:46 PM The Truth About Dispensational Futurism!
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
These audios are amazing guys!

Do keep in mind that these guys come from Missouri, and they were converted from Dispensational Futurism to Adventism. They have a rough "Missourian" way of talking, with a bit of slang. While I do not necessarily endorse some of their "rough vocal approach", the messages are worth listening to on their own merit. They by far have done far more research into the origins of Dispensational Futurism than anyone else I've ever heard!

I invite you all to listen to the following Radio Audio program as well as read the accompanying documents to help establish a foundation for all the forthcoming material.

If the audio files (load in m3u) do not load and stream using your default media player, then let me know!

Click Audio: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism - Part 1 & 2 (2 hour Radio Program) - by Mike Warren and D.S. Farris

YouTube version: Cut 1 - Cut 2 - Cut 3 - Cut 4 - Cut 5 - Cut 6 - Cut 7 - Cut 8 - Cut 9 - Cut 10 - Cut 11

Along with the above audio/radio program, I recommend the following document that goes along with the audio above:

Futurism: The Counterfeit Prophecy (PDF Document) – by D.S. Farris -- this article goes along with the audio program above – (NOTE: I STRONGLY ADVISE you to read it thoroughly FROM BEGINNING TO END CAREFULLY, as it will lay a crucial foundation. It is my sincere prayer and hope that the data presented in this article will not be ignored by any dispensationalist or futurist.)
- Differences Between Protestantism And Catholicism, The Jesuit Scheme Of Prophetic Interpretation, Ribera and Bellarmine, The Early Church Fathers, EXTRA BIBLICAL INFLUENCES ON THE CHURCH FATHERS, The "Beliar Man"

P.S. The above Radio Program and Document can be found at http://www.HearingTheTruth.org (these men hold to Adventist beliefs, and have done a PROFOUND job in their research. You can find their full list of audio programs as well as a free online copy of D.S. Farris’ book entitled: “Prophetic Toolchest for Dismantling the Dispensational Delusion” (about 550 pages long divided into 12 chapters). Feel free to support their ministry if you like what you read and hear.


Edited by Lysimachus (07/22/11 07:53 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#462895 - 07/23/11 07:37 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
olger Offline


Registered: 12/26/05
Posts: 11618
Loc: Ohio
Amen.
_________________________
"Please don't feed the drama queens.."

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#463037 - 07/24/11 01:09 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: olger]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: olger
Amen.


*thumbs up*

If any of you here have had a chance to listen to the above radio show from beginning to end, or at least most of it, let me know. And I'd love to hear your feedback. If you know what the "Beliar man" is, then I'm sure you've heard mostly the whole thing, hehe.
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463278 - 07/24/11 10:13 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.

Dispensationalism preceded the Mssrs Ribera and Bellarmine – as well Chick Publications by millennia.

Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he [shall be] for an haven of ships; and his border [shall be] unto Zidon.

When, in old Canaanland, was the promise to Zebulun fulfilled? Never. Zebulun drew a lot for a landlocked inheritance. Unless, the “last day” promises of Jacob to his sons were squat – there must be a fulfillment not only in the last days – but elsewhere than Canaanland.

Moreover, this theme of dispensationalism runs through the end of Holy Writ. All others are grafted in to the original promises...


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#463297 - 07/25/11 12:12 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: jasd]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: jasd

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.

Dispensationalism preceded the Mssrs Ribera and Bellarmine – as well Chick Publications by millennia.


Dispensations certainly existed prior to these men. But not DispensationalISM, as is defined and understood by today's "Dispensationalists".

Cherishing this doctrine will take one straight to gates of hell if after rejecting the Three Angel's Messages.

Quote:
Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he [shall be] for an haven of ships; and his border [shall be] unto Zidon.

When, in old Canaanland, was the promise to Zebulun fulfilled? Never. Zebulun drew a lot for a landlocked inheritance. Unless, the “last day” promises of Jacob to his sons were squat – there must be a fulfillment not only in the last days – but elsewhere than Canaanland.

Moreover, this theme of dispensationalism runs through the end of Holy Writ. All others are grafted in to the original promises...


All old testament typology that has come to a close, and is now going to be fulfilled antitypically (in not the same manner as the type) to spiritual Israel--the one which is anachronistic to spiritual Babylon.

We see this antitypical realization in Hebrews 11:9-14. The shift has gone from the earthly Canaan to the Heavenly Canaan.

All the Old Testament types have been redefined. The prophecies do not fail, but their methods of their fulfillment will be fulfilled on a far better and more grand and global scale--with the New Jerusalem at the center. The New Jerusalem will LITERALLY settle in Palestine, on the Mount of Olives. And the New Jerusalem will LITERALLY be surrounded. And the New Jerusalem WILL prevail, and the land promises WILL be fulfilled. But at the END of the millennium, on a grand, global, antitypical realization.

Dispensationalists need to give up the idea that the Old Testament typological prophecies will be fulfilled in the manners described. It's over for Israel. OVER! I'm sorry this is such sad news, but that's just the sad fact! Israel is DOOMED as a nation, and that's just something all Dispensationalists are going to have to digest, whether they like it or not.



Edited by Lysimachus (07/25/11 12:16 AM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463413 - 07/25/11 07:44 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
Originally Posted By: jasd

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.

Dispensationalism preceded the Mssrs Ribera and Bellarmine – as well Chick Publications by millennia.


>>Dispensations certainly existed prior to these men. But not DispensationalISM, as is defined and understood by today's "Dispensationalists".<<

Always best practice to stay with the source – than with the offshoot.

>>Cherishing this doctrine will take one straight to gates of hell if after rejecting the Three Angel's Messages.<<

Cherishing any doctrine will take one to damnation – should they worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. Focussing only upon dispensationalism is just frou-frou.

Quote:
Quote:jasd
Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he [shall be] for an haven of ships; and his border [shall be] unto Zidon.

When, in old Canaanland, was the promise to Zebulun fulfilled? Never. Zebulun drew a lot for a landlocked inheritance. Unless, the “last day” promises of Jacob to his sons were squat – there must be a fulfillment not only in the last days – but elsewhere than Canaanland.

Moreover, this theme of dispensationalism runs through the end of Holy Writ. All others are grafted in to the original promises...


>>All old testament typology that has come to a close, and is now going to be fulfilled antitypically (in not the same manner as the type) to spiritual Israel--the one which is anachronistic to spiritual Babylon.<<

Sez who and sez what text? The above indicates that what was literally fulfilled by type during the Spring Feasts of the NT – will now be fulfilled spiritually (“antitypically”?) as regards the Autumnal Feasts? Rotsa ruck with that. There is absolutely no textual support for that...

>>We see this antitypical realization in Hebrews 11:9-14. The shift has gone from the earthly Canaan to the Heavenly Canaan.<<

Has gone? Isn’t that premature? Sounds like Gd is not faithful to OT promises. Ah well, some Protesting .orgs do tend to fethishness re their NT/Psalms – and their extraBiblical missives...

>>All the Old Testament types have been redefined.<<

So then, you hold that the Autumnal Feasts will be “antitypically” spiritual events?

>>The prophecies do not fail, but their methods of their fulfillment will be fulfilled on a far better and more grand and global scale--with the New Jerusalem at the center.<<

Indeed, ultimately – but that evades the remains of earth and its historical fulfillment.

>>The New Jerusalem will LITERALLY settle in Palestine, on the Mount of Olives.<<

That is a way off temporally, yes?—at least after the millennial earthly reign of the saints.

Re: The disposition of the Mount of Olives – that’s if the prophesied removal of every mountain leaves the Mount of Olives still in Present-day Palestine...

>>And the New Jerusalem will LITERALLY be surrounded.<<

All this ‘literal’ – ‘non-literal spiritual’ confabulation leaves one’s head spinning. There is only the One New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven. That, according to Revelation 22:15, will be surrounded by – “For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.” Otherwise, it is the

“camp of the saints about, and the beloved city”, which is surrounded (Rev 20:9).

Two different ‘cities’.

>>And the New Jerusalem WILL prevail, and the land promises WILL be fulfilled. But at the END of the millennium, on a grand, global, antitypical realization.<<

Indeed, the New Jerusalem is situated after “the first earth had passed away” (Rev 22:1) – but “antitypical realization”?

>>Dispensationalists need to give up the idea that the Old Testament typological prophecies will be fulfilled in the manners described. [ed.jasd]<<

...as described in Holy Writ. Indeed. Else Gd is a liar. [/respectfully]

>>It's over for Israel. OVER! I'm sorry this is such sad news, but that's just the sad fact! Israel is DOOMED as a nation, and that's just something all Dispensationalists are going to have to digest, whether they like it or not.<<

I say!—whole cloth!—and a disturbingly misconstrued bit of Biblical exposition.

2 Sam 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Sam 713 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Forever is a long time.

Gd promised King David, unconditionally, that there would never fail him a descendant to sit upon his throne...

That means that somewhere today – a descendant sits upon the throne of David and Solomon. Ain not nuthin’ spiritual ‘bout THAT! Is a literal fact – called dispensationalism.

I purport that David’s throne is now in the British (Brit, covenant – ish, man – or am/an, people; as in British, which translates to ‘covenant man’, or as in Britain, which translates to ‘covenant people’) Isles, but that the thrice overturned ‘crowning stone’ liafail (arguably, the anointed stone whereupon Jacob laid his head and dreamed of angels ascending and descending) has been returned to Scotland.

Every throne in Europe has Saxon blood – Saxon, as in Isaac’s sons... (Gen 21:12)

The history of elect of Israel is marvelously overwhelming... Selah

However, our near future is fraught with peril in that the prophesied waste of our lands, destruction of our cities, and enslavement of our peoples – are near future.

2 Sam 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel [to be] a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Forever is a long time – even through the times of cynics, skeptics, and Protesting .orgs.

(per Abijah re David, Gd sealed His promise to David with a covenant of salt – that is, a perpetual covenant)


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#463429 - 07/25/11 08:56 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
British/Israelism is the hoax promoted by the late Herbert W. Armstrong [WWCG] .... there is no truth to this fable

He was also a false prophet .... he said that He was the Lord's end time prophet .... he also said that Hitler was the beast of Revelation and that Mussolini was the false prophet of Revelation .... he was wrong

And do you know that his WWCG is a spin off of EGW's SDA?

Two birds of a feather .... just a different twisting

The things that people will follow and believe without investigating the details is just appalling

Beware of false prophets and false teachers who come to deceive and to make mush out of the Lord's prophetic word for the purpose of promoting self gain [Matthew 24:4-4]


Edited by Truth Files (07/25/11 09:03 PM)
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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463434 - 07/25/11 10:08 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: jasd]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: jasd
Quote:
Originally Posted By: jasd

Gen 49:1 And Jacob called unto his sons, and said, Gather yourselves together, that I may tell you [that] which shall befall you in the last days.

Dispensationalism preceded the Mssrs Ribera and Bellarmine – as well Chick Publications by millennia.


>>Dispensations certainly existed prior to these men. But not DispensationalISM, as is defined and understood by today's "Dispensationalists".<<

Always best practice to stay with the source – than with the offshoot.


Sticking with the "source" does not work when we are helping Dispensationalists see that we disagree with their theology. Thus, I stand by my original comment that I am opposed to Dispensationalism. That is, Dispensationalism as they believe it, just like Predestination as Calvinists define Predestination, even though it is a Biblical word.

Quote:
>>Cherishing this doctrine will take one straight to gates of hell if after rejecting the Three Angel's Messages.<<

Cherishing any doctrine will take one to damnation – should they worship the beast and his image and receive his mark. Focussing only upon dispensationalism is just frou-frou.


What we believe shapes our spiritual life. Our actions are a reflection of our doctrine. Wrong doctrine, wrong actions.

Example: If one believes in Dispensationalism, they will not be able to see that they need to keep the Sabbath Holy, and that it is intrinsically tied to God's Seal/Sign, and that the Papal Sunday is the Sign or Mark of the Beast, who's power and authority came from the Dragon, the Devil.

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:jasd
Gen 49:13 Zebulun shall dwell at the haven of the sea; and he [shall be] for an haven of ships; and his border [shall be] unto Zidon.

When, in old Canaanland, was the promise to Zebulun fulfilled? Never. Zebulun drew a lot for a landlocked inheritance. Unless, the “last day” promises of Jacob to his sons were squat – there must be a fulfillment not only in the last days – but elsewhere than Canaanland.

Moreover, this theme of dispensationalism runs through the end of Holy Writ. All others are grafted in to the original promises...


>>All old testament typology that has come to a close, and is now going to be fulfilled antitypically (in not the same manner as the type) to spiritual Israel--the one which is anachronistic to spiritual Babylon.<<

Sez who and sez what text? The above indicates that what was literally fulfilled by type during the Spring Feasts of the NT – will now be fulfilled spiritually (“antitypically”?) as regards the Autumnal Feasts? Rotsa ruck with that. There is absolutely no textual support for that...


If you want a careful study of it, here you go:

Divided up in 4 posts: The Antitypical Fulfillment of Old Testa...ional Antitypes

Doctrines are never formed on one single texts, so it would be impossible for me to just list you a few texts. There are NUMEROUS texts that must be looked at, and all compared side by side for the picture to "stand out". This is why Isaiah 28:9-13 states the following:

"Whom shall he teach knowledge? and whom shall he make to understand doctrine? them that are weaned from the milk, and drawn from the breasts. For precept must be upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little: For with stammering lips and another tongue will he speak to this people. To whom he said, This is the rest wherewith ye may cause the weary to rest; and this is the refreshing: yet they would not hear. But the word of the LORD was unto them precept upon precept, precept upon precept; line upon line, line upon line; here a little, and there a little; that they might go, and fall backward, and be broken, and snared, and taken." (Isa 28:9-13)

Quote:
>>We see this antitypical realization in Hebrews 11:9-14. The shift has gone from the earthly Canaan to the Heavenly Canaan.<<

Has gone? Isn’t that premature? Sounds like Gd is not faithful to OT promises. Ah well, some Protesting .orgs do tend to fethishness re their NT/Psalms – and their extraBiblical missives...


God is always faithful to the OT promises. Israel was not faithful to them. Promises and blessings are always conditional upon obedience. This is a running theme throughout the Old Testament. The promises to Israel are of a far more conditional nature than unconditional one. And since the scriptures cannot and do not contradict themselves, all those unconditional promises (such as Jeremiah 31) are pointing forward to unconditional antitypes--meaning, to those who have the law written in their hearts, which was the New Covenant promise, and such a promise was ratified at the cross. Those who had the law written in their hearts were those faithful Jews and Gentiles were baptized into the Church.

If you would like to see all the texts of this conditional nature, read my article I linked a few paragraphs up.

Quote:
>>All the Old Testament types have been redefined.<<

So then, you hold that the Autumnal Feasts will be “antitypically” spiritual events?


I do. Many of the Old Testament feasts will be fully realized in heaven, in the New Jerusalem, when we partake of the Marriage Supper of the Lamb, and the Monthly feast by the Tree of Life, as it yields its fruit every month (see Revelation 22:2; Isa 66:22,23)

Quote:
>>The prophecies do not fail, but their methods of their fulfillment will be fulfilled on a far better and more grand and global scale--with the New Jerusalem at the center.<<

Indeed, ultimately – but that evades the remains of earth and its historical fulfillment.


Many of the Old Testament prophecies were "partially" fulfilled, or "partially" met within the Old Testament time frame, but they never fully materialized do to Israel's rejection of the Messiah, and crucifying Him afresh and putting Him to open shame, and then murdering Stephen, the last messenger sent to Israel. God would have to be out of his mind to continuing to let Israel have "another chance" after he gave an untold number of chances throughout the Old Testament. There comes a time when God says "enough is enough, I will now work with a new nation---I will take the kingdom of God away from you and give it to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

Many of the Old Testament prophecies that did not fully materialize will be, finally, and fully realized at the beginning and end of the millennium.

Remember, I do not believe the earth will be populated during the millennium.

Dispensationalists use erroneous arguments to prove that there will be births and deaths during the millennium. But there is not a single Bible text in ALL of scripture that alludes to an earthly reign during the millennium. Every single text referring to the saints reigning on the earth is alluding to the earth made new, after the millennium! To counter this, Futurists appeal to arguments found in Isaiah chapters 11 and 65 which mention births and deaths, yet deny the fact that these “births” and “deaths” are, in context, being placed AFTER the earth is made new (Isaiah 65:17). The Apostle John in Revelation 21 places the New Earth AFTER the millennium. What Futurists fail to realize is that John the Revelator has redefined these prophecies in Isaiah, lifts them up out of their Old Testament application, and reapplies them at the end of the millennium—revealing their Antitypical, and greater fulfillment. They fail to realize that the New Testament is the expositor of the Old Testament. We believe ALL Old and New Testament passages that speak of an “earthly reign” are speaking of the saints AFTER the millennium.)

Notice the perfect example:

Isaiah's version:

Isaiah 65
65:17 For, behold, I create new heavens and a new earth: and the former shall not be remembered, nor come into mind.
65:18 But be ye glad and rejoice for ever [in that] which I create: for, behold, I create Jerusalem a rejoicing, and her people a joy.
65:19 And I will rejoice in Jerusalem, and joy in my people: and the voice of weeping shall be no more heard in her, nor the voice of crying.
65:20 There shall be no more thence an infant of days, nor an old man that hath not filled his days: for the child shall die an hundred years old; but the sinner [being] an hundred years old shall be accursed.


John the Revelator's version:

Revelation 21
21:1 And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
21:3 And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
21:4 And God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes; and there shall be no more death, neither sorrow, nor crying, neither shall there be any more pain: for the former things are passed away.

You may also compare Isaiah 65 above with Isaiah 11.

Notice how in Isaiah, in context of the earth made new, there are births and deaths. Notice also how there is only no more weeping, but it doesn't mention about no more deaths. Notice also how Jerusalem is mentioned, but not the New Jerusalem. Notice how in Isaiah also God does not come down to dwell with them.

However, God is always amazing like that. He always has a way of making his prophecies BETTER than when they were actually foretold.

Revelation is talking about the EXACT same thing as Isaiah, yet John shows the polished up Antitype by revealing how there will be no more death, no more pain, no more sorrow, that God will come and dwell with us, and that our home will not be the Old Jerusalem (which represented the bondwoman that was "cast out" in Galatians 4:25-30), but the NEW Jerusalem that comes down from heaven.

Once you can see these parallels, you will be blown away, and you will see how God's promises never fail--only they will be fulfilled on a grander, global, and more glorious scale! With the NEW Jerusalem at its center. :)

Remember, the earth will be desolate after the Second Coming, without any inhabitants.

(Please read: Isaiah 24:17-22; Jer 4:23-28; Jeremiah 25:31-33; Isaiah 24:1-4; Isaiah 14:12-21; Isaiah 13:9-13; Isaiah 28:21,22; Isaiah 34:1-15; Jer 25:32-38; Zeph 1:2,3; 3:6-8), and the wicked are all dead, and lie in wait in the grave (Hosea 7:6,7)

Quote:
>>The New Jerusalem will LITERALLY settle in Palestine, on the Mount of Olives.<<

That is a way off temporally, yes?—at least after the millennial earthly reign of the saints.

Re: The disposition of the Mount of Olives – that’s if the prophesied removal of every mountain leaves the Mount of Olives still in Present-day Palestine...


I believe that the reign will be "heavenly", not earthly, during the millennium. Satan will be bound to this abysmal, chaotic, and destroyed planet for 1000 years.

The land will "rest" during the 7th millennium from all human habitation.



I wrote a paper on this entitled: The True Nature of the Millennium (PDF)

Quote:
>>And the New Jerusalem will LITERALLY be surrounded.<<

All this ‘literal’ – ‘non-literal spiritual’ confabulation leaves one’s head spinning. There is only the One New Jerusalem, which comes down from heaven. That, according to Revelation 22:15, will be surrounded by – “For without [are] dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.”


It will be surrounded by them before the Lake of Fire comes down from heaven, yes. Revelation 22:15 is simply alluding back before the lake of fire comes. It's simply a concept John is trying to portray, that those who are lost will be outside the city, and those saved inside. In other words, John is trying to make a point, not trying to describe a chronological event. Revelation is written in a chiasm, not in chronological order.

Also, don't get confused with this "literal" and "non-literal spiritual".

Literal and Spiritual are not necessarily anachronistic to one another. Literalistic and Spiritual are. Something can be Spiritual and Literal at the same time.

The Spiritual and Literal are intimately intertwined. And we must make the clear distinction between types and antitypes.

Quote:
Otherwise, it is the

“camp of the saints about, and the beloved city”, which is surrounded (Rev 20:9).

Two different ‘cities’.


There is no two different cities here. When John says that they "compassed the camp of the saints about", and "the beloved city", he's trying to make 2 points. 1. That the ones they are surrounding are the saints, and 2. The saints are inside the city. The New Jerusalem is the camp of the saints.

One of the most outstanding proofs that the New Jerusalem is the same as the "beloved city", is that in REvelation 20:12-15, John backs up a bit and begins to describe the Great White Throne Judgment scene prior to the Lake of Fire. Now we know fire came down out of heaven and devoured the wicked that surrounded the "beloved city", yet these wicked are shown to be thrown into the lake of fire after the Great White Throne Judgment scene. And who is sitting on this throne? It is God himself! And God's throne is IN the New Jerusalem according to Revelation 22:1,2.

Therefore, the Beloved City has to be the New Jerusalem. There is no way out of it. Besides, John would never call the Old Jerusalem "the Beloved City" when Paul in Galatians 4 clearly called it the "Jerusalem which is in bondage", and "cast out".

Quote:
>>And the New Jerusalem WILL prevail, and the land promises WILL be fulfilled. But at the END of the millennium, on a grand, global, antitypical realization.<<

Indeed, the New Jerusalem is situated after “the first earth had passed away” (Rev 22:1) – but “antitypical realization”?


Remember, the New Jerusalem is not mentioned even once in the Old Testament. Only in the New.

Old Testament Types:

Earthly Sanctuary
Old Jerusalem
Ancient Israel
Earthly Canaan

New Testament Antitypes:

Heavenly Sanctuary
New Jerusalem
Spiritual Israel
Heavenly Canaan

In addition to this, please do yourself a favor and visit this link here:
http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter4.pdf

Then scroll down to pages 27-30. You might even enjoy reading the full article.

Remember that when I say "heavenly Canaan", it doesn't necessarily mean it won't be on earth. It will just mean heaven is on earth. But first we will be in the New Jerusalem in heaven for 1000 years before we descend back to the earth at the end of the millennium, when the wicked of all ages will be raised, and Satan will go out to deceive these resurrected nations into surrounding the City.

This is why the wicked will face the "second death". They died "once before"--before or during the Second Coming at the beginning of the millennium.


Quote:
>>Dispensationalists need to give up the idea that the Old Testament typological prophecies will be fulfilled in the manners described. [ed.jasd]<<

...as described in Holy Writ. Indeed. Else Gd is a liar. [/respectfully]


God is not a liar. But we can lie to God. To believe that God fulfills His promises to those who turn unfaithful is to adhere to a despicable teaching on par with Calvinistic Predestination--where God's people become robots and have no will-power to choose.

God does not lie. He means exactly what He says. And that is: He will fulfill His promises to His children IF they remain faithful. The conditional element of "IF" is rampant throughout the Sacred Pages. This conditional element cannot be ignored.

Quote:
>>It's over for Israel. OVER! I'm sorry this is such sad news, but that's just the sad fact! Israel is DOOMED as a nation, and that's just something all Dispensationalists are going to have to digest, whether they like it or not.<<

I say!—whole cloth!—and a disturbingly misconstrued bit of Biblical exposition.

2 Sam 7:12 And when thy days be fulfilled, and thou shalt sleep with thy fathers, I will set up thy seed after thee, which shall proceed out of thy bowels, and I will establish his kingdom.
2 Sam 713 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

Forever is a long time.

Gd promised King David, unconditionally, that there would never fail him a descendant to sit upon his throne...

That means that somewhere today – a descendant sits upon the throne of David and Solomon. Ain not nuthin’ spiritual ‘bout THAT! Is a literal fact – called dispensationalism.

I purport that David’s throne is now in the British (Brit, covenant – ish, man – or am/an, people; as in British, which translates to ‘covenant man’, or as in Britain, which translates to ‘covenant people’) Isles, but that the thrice overturned ‘crowning stone’ liafail (arguably, the anointed stone whereupon Jacob laid his head and dreamed of angels ascending and descending) has been returned to Scotland.

Every throne in Europe has Saxon blood – Saxon, as in Isaac’s sons... (Gen 21:12)

The history of elect of Israel is marvelously overwhelming... Selah

However, our near future is fraught with peril in that the prophesied waste of our lands, destruction of our cities, and enslavement of our peoples – are near future.

2 Sam 7:24 For thou hast confirmed to thyself thy people Israel [to be] a people unto thee for ever: and thou, LORD, art become their God.

Forever is a long time – even through the times of cynics, skeptics, and Protesting .orgs.

(per Abijah re David, Gd sealed His promise to David with a covenant of salt – that is, a perpetual covenant)


Yes, and Jesus Christ is the fulfillment of that Davidic Promise. Jesus, the Son of David, in that same line of David, fulfills that Davidic Kingship, and He is sitting on the Davidic Throne in Heaven:
http://www.hearingthetruth.org/chapter4.pdf

It's all antitypical now. Not until Dispensationalists understand the difference between types and antitypes will they ever be able to understand the Three Angel's Messages for the whole world. But in the meantime, the Local Palestinian types are blinding them, and these scales must come off if they want to endure what is coming upon the whole world.


Edited by Lysimachus (07/25/11 10:21 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463436 - 07/25/11 11:03 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Kevin H Online   content



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2928
Loc: New York
Truth flys: I'm sorry but Armstrong was not an offshoot of Ellen White's Seventh-day Adventism. They were an offshoot from a different branch of millerism. So a similar background, but not a direct offshoot from us. You getting your facts wrong here and making insinuations based on these false facts, is simply being sloppy with facts and history and thus makes you loose credibility. If this history of Armstrong is an example of your sloppyiness on other matters as well, I need to fight the temptation to not read the words "out the window" when I see your screen name.

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#463484 - 07/26/11 07:01 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
"I'm sorry but Armstrong was not an offshoot of Ellen White's Seventh-day Adventism. They were an offshoot from a different branch of millerism."

>No difference .... Millerism; Whiteism ..... all the same

>And before you play your "sloppy card", better check out the facts about Armstrong ..... I know the record about this spin off

>You tell me about your idea with facts
_________________________
Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463504 - 07/26/11 11:17 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Kevin H Online   content



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2928
Loc: New York
There is the book "The Radio Church of God" that was published by Seventh-day Adventists. But I have also read it in other more scholarly books about comparative religions that I would read when working on my masters and my training as a chaplain assistant in the Army. Were all these books wrong?

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#463507 - 07/26/11 11:53 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
I've done my research on Herbert Armstrong myself, and I guarantee you Truth Files that Kevin H is right.

Loughborough documents in his book "The Second Great Advent Movement" how there was a large meeting held in in what to name the Church, and 99% of them voted for the name "Seventh-Day Adventist", and only a handful wanted it named "Church of God". These men split off from the majority and formed the "Church of God", and Armstrong is branched off of them.

So Armstrong is not a branch off of the Seventh-Day Adventist Church. He is a branch off of the Millerite line--a branch that refused to come into line with the brethren who knew their Bibles.


Edited by Lysimachus (07/26/11 12:01 PM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463508 - 07/26/11 11:54 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
So I'm sorry Truth Files, Adventism is the main body, the true descendants of true Protestantism.

Anything else is fictitious imagination.
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463510 - 07/26/11 12:06 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
There are like 130,000 members I believe to the WWCG. Compare that to 17 million Adventists.

Also, when you say Truth Files that Armstrong is branched off of EGW SDA, you make it sound as if that must mean "EGW SDA" is "wrong". That is a very childish and stupid way to reason.

How many cult groups have formed that split off from your Dispensational groups? THOUSANDS! Numerous cultic sects have "branched off" of your Jesuit Dispensational theology.

I'll take EGW over a Jesuit any day. You can kiss up to your beloved Cardinals who will bestow their blessing on you for poisoning SDA's with their doctrines--just what they were hoping. They love people like you.
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463561 - 07/26/11 06:06 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon
>>British/Israelism is the hoax promoted by the late Herbert W. Armstrong [WWCG] .... there is no truth to this fable <<

Whoa! there – Bubba. Although HW Armstrong may have promoted British Israelism, it predated him by centuries – when the Bible became more readily available to serious expositors. Let’s not be goin’ and throwin’ the baby out with bathwater... Besides,

a great portion of our early Colonists emigrated from Europe believing in British Israelism. It was a readily accepted truism of the 17th and 18th centuries.

>>He was also a false prophet ....<<

He may have been; however, in what manner of speaking? –as Writ gives us at least three definitions which define a prophet...

>>...he said that He was the Lord's end time prophet ....<<

By what manner of speaking?

>>...he also said that Hitler was the beast of Revelation and that Mussolini was the false prophet of Revelation .... he was wrong<<

Was he speaking in dualistice terminology or as unequivocally as does the .Org re the Pope?

>>And do you know that his WWCG is a spin off of EGW's SDA?<<

It is purported, yes.

>>Two birds of a feather .... just a different twisting<<

Did EGW believe in British Israelism? I didn’t know...

>>The things that people will follow and believe without investigating the details is just appalling <<

One assumes that you’ve done just that, investigate, yes? So, explain to me how Gd can make an unconditional promise such as

2 Sam 713 He shall build an house for my name, and I will stablish the throne of his kingdom for ever.

and then renege? Or are you simply hyperbolizing?

>>Beware of false prophets and false teachers who come to deceive and to make mush out of the Lord's prophetic word for the purpose of promoting self gain [Matthew 24:4-4]<<

I suppose you refer to HW Armstrong and EGW... Okay, tell me how British Israelism doesn’t work (that is, a hoax)? You’re not one of

those disciples of Modern Evangelicism who believe that the core of end-times Bible prophecy finds its fulfillment in present-day State of Israel, are you?



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#463564 - 07/26/11 06:26 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
Quote:Lysimachus
Also, when you say Truth Files that Armstrong is branched off of EGW SDA, you make it sound as if that must mean "EGW SDA" is "wrong". That is a very childish and stupid way to reason.

How many cult groups have formed that split off from your Dispensational groups? THOUSANDS! Numerous cultic sects have "branched off" of your Jesuit Dispensational theology.


“Jesuit Dispensational theology”? Isn’t that the same sort of reasoning that you chided, as

“very childish and stupid way to reason"?

Fact of the matter is: Anyone who simply peruses Holy Writ knows that Gd instituted Dispensationalism.

On supporting fact is:

Amos 3:2 You only have I known of all the families of the earth: ...

Sounds like Dispensationalism to me - notwithstanding Jesuits, et al.

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#463570 - 07/26/11 06:58 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon
Quote:
Quote:Lysimachus
Sticking with the "source" does not work when we are helping Dispensationalists see that we disagree with their theology.

[...]

But in the meantime, the Local Palestinian types are blinding them, and these scales must come off if they want to endure what is coming upon the whole world.


Looks like a dissertative essay to me. Do you expect people to respond to such lengthiness? Well, I may or may not – catch as catch can – remember, I already told you

I barely think 10-words per minute. That doesn’t take into account any

cognitive ( or peculiar to me - dissonant ;-) shuffling...

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#463639 - 07/26/11 10:06 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
God told Solomon he'd establish His throne forever too. Last time I checked, Solomon is dead. So is David.

Ellen White tells us that had Solomon remained faithful, His kingdom would have lasted forever. Plan A would have materialized. The world would have been converted, and their enemies subdued, and slowly but surely Solomon's kingdom would have transformed into a utopia.

God's promises never fail, but those who break the covenant with him cannot inherit the benefits of that covenant. It takes 2 to make a covenant--which means a "pact", a "contract", an "agreement", a "promise" between two parties. In order for the agreement to work, both parties have to keep their promise. When one breaks the contract, the other one cannot be blamed for breaking it. Only the one who broke it.

Unconditional? Yes, unconditional providing the other party fulfills his side of the bargain, and keeps his portion of the pact. When I God says "I will do this, and I will do that"....ALWAYS is it under this pretext.

Until Dispensationalists learn this, they will never get anywhere.
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463679 - 07/27/11 12:30 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
jasd Offline


Registered: 02/15/05
Posts: 3661
Loc: Oregon
>>God told Solomon he'd establish His throne forever too. Last time I checked, Solomon is dead. So is David.<<

Good catch, we all die – but what of the throne? According to Gd’s unconditional promise to them – that selfsame throne must still be extant today – that is, with a functioning king or queen sitting upon it having certain functions as pertain a king or queen. If there is no descendant of David sitting upon a throne today, then

the Gd of the Bible is a liar and a scoundrel. [/respectfully]

>>Ellen White tells us that had Solomon remained faithful, His kingdom would have lasted forever.<<

Does a functioning throne indicate a kingdom? Well,

2 Sam 7:16 And thine house and thy kingdom shall be established for ever before thee: thy throne shall be established for ever.

Forever is a long time.

>>Plan A would have materialized.<<

Funny, Holy Writ makes no mention of a Plan A. Is there a bit of eisegesis warping and woofing through her writings?

>>The world would have been converted, and their enemies subdued, and slowly but surely Solomon's kingdom would have transformed into a utopia.<<

Gd had already inspired His prophets to write certain of the end of all things in contrast to an imagined Plan A. Should history have unfolded otherwise than it did, then the Gd who declares Himself Gd because He knoweth the end of things before they come to pass – would be revealed a fraud. [/respectfully]

>>God's promises never fail, but those who break the covenant with him cannot inherit the benefits of that covenant.<<

True, as far as that goes. The promise we speak of was re the throne and not of this or that descendant... Should a prince or princess of David’s progeny prove unworthy – than Gd would pass him or her over to select another of the line. But the throne goes on...

>>It takes 2 to make a covenant--which means a "pact", a "contract", an "agreement", a "promise" between two parties. In order for the agreement to work, both parties have to keep their promise. When one breaks the contract, the other one cannot be blamed for breaking it. Only the one who broke it.<<

True, however, either party can choose to honor the terms of the “pact”, “contract”, “agreement”, etc. But what does have to do with the unconditional covenant Gd made with David and Solomon?

>>Unconditional? Yes, unconditional providing the other party fulfills his side of the bargain, and keeps his portion of the pact. When I God says "I will do this, and I will do that"....ALWAYS is it under this pretext.<<

That is a non sequitur. Unconditional means exactly that – unconditional.

>>Until Dispensationalists learn this, they will never get anywhere.<<

And – until the doctrinaire learns to eschew eisegesis – he or she will struggle with the common reading of Writ.


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#463683 - 07/27/11 12:34 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files

And do you know that his WWCG is a spin off of EGW's SDA?

Two birds of a feather .... just a different twisting


No, this is not true. Armstrong was never an SDA or a believer in Ellen G. White's prophetic ministry.

I suggest that you do some research and prove this statement of yours or else retract it.

Where are you getting your information? Be sure to look carefully. This is how rumors get passed on from one foolish person to another, because they don't take the time to verify what they read or hear. Don't accept something just because it supports something you want to believe.

Be sure to post here the result of your research.

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#463685 - 07/27/11 12:38 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
I will post the evidence for you .... have to run right now
_________________________
Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463687 - 07/27/11 12:40 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Kevin H]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Kevin H
....You getting your facts wrong here and making insinuations based on these false facts, is simply being sloppy with facts and history and thus makes you loose credibility. If this history of Armstrong is an example of your sloppyiness on other matters as well, I need to fight the temptation to not read the words "out the window" when I see your screen name.


You haven't seen the half of it, Kevin. There are other posts that are far, far worse.

"Truth Files" also said that (1) Ellen White claimed that she alone discovered the Investigative Judgment, and (2) Ellen White predicted on the basis of a vision that no more humans on earth would ever be saved.

All this without any evidence whatsoever. So much for truth.

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#463690 - 07/27/11 12:46 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
OK. Remember to post quote and references.

I'd like to suggest that you get your information from legitimate websites that have high standards of scholarlship and honesty. Your anti-SDA and anti-White websites don't qualifiy. That would be like my going to anti-Mormon sites to find out the truth about Mormonism or to anti-JW sites for the truth about JWs. That's never a good idea. Same principle applies to SDAs or any other church.

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#463739 - 07/27/11 09:48 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
When the great disapointment came many of the Millerites left the SDA and later formed the Church of God [7th day] .... then later, Armstrong's WWCG was hatched

EGW covered for Miller's failures and she and her associates formed the SDA

Both movements carry very similar dogmas today like sabbath keeping and similar legalisms, but with differences in the interpretation of bible prophecy

.... and obviously with different iconic leaders

The splitting still exists today .... but there is some cross over


Edited by Truth Files (07/27/11 09:52 AM)
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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463743 - 07/27/11 10:01 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
Kevin H Online   content



Registered: 01/23/02
Posts: 2928
Loc: New York
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
When the great disapointment came many left the SDA and later formed the Church of God [7th day] .... then Armstrong's WWCG was hatched

Both movements carry very similar dogmas today like sabbath keeping and similar legalisms, but with differences in the interpretation of bible prophecy

.... and obviously different iconic leaders


They did not leave the Seventh-day Adventist church as it did not form at this time. Different Millerites tried to come up with explanations and formed different groups. One group was the Seventh-day Adventists, one was the Advent Christian Church, Several became Church of God, including Church of God [7th day]. These were Millerites that went different directions. Yes a similar root, but different groups. Armstrong came from a group that did not accept Ellen White's ministry. Ellen White fought strange ideas and brought us back into orthodoxy. Some without her influence became tossed too and fro by every wind of doctrine. So your above post supports our argument against you, it does not support your views, Thank you for agreeing with us and disagreeing with your previous post. However I thought you were going to try to prove your point.

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#463758 - 07/27/11 11:54 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
"So your above post supports our argument against you, it does not support your views, Thank you for agreeing with us and disagreeing with your previous post. However I thought you were going to try to prove your point"

>I don't think so, looks like all of the same stuff to me .... just different faction's and spin offs .... and different pied Pipers with individual ambitions .... bickering among themselves

>I see all of this as cultish branded religions following various false prophets and false teachers .... and I see the damage done not only to the memberships, but the same making a mockery of Biblical christianity


_________________________
Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463815 - 07/27/11 06:16 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
Aussiemike Offline
Getting the hang of posting

Registered: 05/04/11
Posts: 63
Loc: Australia
Originally Posted By: Truth Files


Both movements carry very similar dogmas today like sabbath keeping and similar legalisms,



Similar legalisms like not committing murder and stealing and adultery etc. those legalisms. ie the ten commandments biglaugh


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#463819 - 07/27/11 06:33 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
Gerry Cabalo Offline



Registered: 03/20/00
Posts: 15425
Loc: Wilkesboro, NC
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
"I'm sorry but Armstrong was not an offshoot of Ellen White's Seventh-day Adventism. They were an offshoot from a different branch of millerism."

>No difference .... Millerism; Whiteism ..... all the same

>And before you play your "sloppy card", better check out the facts about Armstrong ..... I know the record about this spin off

>You tell me about your idea with facts


Iceberg, Rosenberg, Goldberg, all the same?

Calling yourself "Truth Files" and then play fast and loose with facts/Truth?

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#463823 - 07/27/11 06:39 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
When the great disapointment came many of the Millerites left the SDA and later formed the Church of God [7th day] .... then later, Armstrong's WWCG was hatched


This is false. There was no SDA Church until 1863. The Great Disappointment was in 1844.

Prove the link between Armstrong and Ellen White and the SDAs. You need to show references and a quote from a competant source.

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#463824 - 07/27/11 06:42 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Gerry Cabalo]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Gerry Cabalo

Calling yourself "Truth Files" and then play fast and loose with facts/Truth? [/color]


Unfortunately "Truth Files" does it quite often and evidently thinks nothing of it.

READER BEWARE!

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#463835 - 07/27/11 07:59 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
"Thank you for agreeing with us and disagreeing with your previous post. However I thought you were going to try to prove your point"

"Unfortunately "Truth Files" does it quite often and evidently thinks nothing of it. READER BEWARE!"

"All this without any evidence whatsoever. So much for truth"

>The evidence is in .... no question about this

>The linkage is evident by shared foundational beliefs .... and all are replacement theologies [discounting Israel's position in scripture and replacing with their own movements]; all selective legalistic law keepers [notably, Sabbath "keepers"] .... all connected spin off movements

>Millerite, SDA, Armstrong, Russell, branch Dividian, etc.

>Armstrong's method of replacement theology was just a different twist to fabricate the British and the USA into the 10 lost tribes of Israel [white anglo-saxon supremacy]

>Charles Russell, leader of the JW Watch Tower Society was well knowm for his failures by making false prophecies and then reinventing his stories when they did not come to pass

>Here is a short article and this record can be verified as factual:

Adventism began as an inter-denominational movement. Its most vocal leader was William Miller. Between 50,000 and 100,000 people in the United States supported Miller's predictions of Christ's return.

After the "Great Disappointment" of October 22, 1844 many people in the movement gave up on Adventism and presumably on Christianity as well. Of those remaining Adventist, the majority gave up believing in any prophetic (biblical) significance for the October 22 date, yet they remained expectant of the near Advent (second coming of Jesus).

Of those who retained the October 22 date, many maintained that Jesus had come not literally but "spiritually", and consequently were known as "spiritualizers" [EGW]. A small minority held that something concrete had indeed happened on October 22, but this event had been misinterpreted. This viewpoint later emerged and crystallized with the Seventh-day Adventist Church, the largest remaining body today.

The Albany Conference in 1845, attended by 61 delegates, was called to attempt to determine the future course and meaning of the Millerite movement. Following this meeting, the "Millerites" then became known as "Adventists" or "Second Adventists".

However, the delegates disagreed on several theological points. Four groups emerged from the conference: The Evangelical Adventists, The Life and Advent Union, the Advent Christian Church, and the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

The largest group organized as the American Millennial Association, a portion of which was later known as the Evangelical Adventist Church. Unique among the Adventists, they believed in an eternal hell and consciousness in death. They declined in numbers, and by 1916 their name did not appear in the United States Census of Religious Bodies. It has diminished to almost non-existence today.

Their main publication was the Advent Herald. (Millerite magazine Signs of the Times) was first published in 1840. In January 1844 it was continued and renamed the Advent Herald and Signs of the Times or Advent Herald, of which Sylvester Bliss was the editor until his death in 1863. It was later called the Messiah’s Herald). Another was the Signs of the Times

The Life and Advent Union was founded by George Storrs in 1863. He had established The Bible Examiner in 1842. It merged with the Adventist Christian Church in 1964.

The Advent Christian Church officially formed in 1861, and grew rapidly at first. It declined a little over the 20th century. The Advent Christians publish the four magazines The Advent Christian Witness, Advent Christian News, Advent Christian Missions andMaranatha.

They also operate a liberal arts college at Aurora, Illinois; and a Bible College at Lennox, Massachusetts. The Primitive Advent Christian Church later separated from a few congregations in West Virginia.

The Seventh-day Adventist Church officially formed in 1863. It believes in the sanctity of the seventh-day Sabbath as a holy day for worship. It published the Adventist Review and Sabbath Herald. It has grown to a large worldwide denomination and has a significant network of medical and educational institutions.

Miller did not join any of the movements, and spent the last few years of his life working for unity, before dying in 1849.

The Handbook of Denominations in the United States, 12th edn., describes the following churches as "Adventist and Sabbatarian (Hebraic) Churches":

Christadelphians - The Christadelphians, were founded 1844 and had an estimated 25,000 members in 170 ecclesias in 2000 in America.

Advent Christian Church - The Advent Christian Church was founded 1860 and had 25,277 members in 302 churches in 2002 in America. It is a "first-day" body of Adventist Christians founded on the teachings of William Miller. They adopted the "conditional immortality" views of Charles F. Hudson and George Storrs formed the "Advent Christian Association" in Salem, Massachusetts in 1860.

Primitive Advent Christian Church - The Primitive Advent Christian Church is a small group which separated from the Advent Christian Church. They differ from the parent body mainly in two points. They observe feet washing as a rite of the church, and they teach that reclaimed backsliders should be baptized (even though they had formerly been baptized). This is sometimes referred to as rebaptism.

Seventh-day Adventist - The Seventh-day Adventist Church, founded 1863, and had 15,600,000 baptized members (not counting children of members) worldwide as of 2007[3] is best known for its teaching that Saturday, the seventh day of the week, is the Sabbath and is the appropriate day for worship.

Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement - The Seventh Day Adventist Reform Movement is a small offshoot with an unknown number of members from the Seventh-day Adventist Church caused by disagreement over military service on the Sabbath day during World War I.

Davidian Seventh-day Adventist Association - The Davidians (originally named Shepherd's Rod) is a small offshoot with an unknown number of members made up primarily of voluntarily disfellowshipped members of the Seventh-day Adventist Church.

They were originally known as the Shepherd's Rod and are still referred to as such. The group derives its name from two books on Bible doctrine written by their founder, Victor Houteff, in 1929.

Branch Davidians - The Branch Davidians were a split ("branch") from the Davidians. Many of them perished in the infamous Waco Siege of 1993.

Church of God (Seventh Day) - The Church of God (Seventh-Day) founded 1863 with an estimated 11,000 members in 185 churches in 1999 in America. They separated in 1858 from those Adventists associated with Ellen White who later organized as Seventh-day Adventists in 1863.

Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God splintered from this. The Church of God (7th Day) split off in 1933 and had an estimated 63,000 members worldwide in 2004.

Church of God and Saints of Christ - The Church of God and Saints of Christ was founded 1896 and had an estimated 40,000 members in approximately 200 congregations in 1999 in America.

Church of God General Conference - The Church of God General Conference was founded in 1921 and had 7,634 members in 162 churches in 2004 in America. It is an Adventist Christian body which is also known as the Church of God of the Abrahamic Faith and the Church of God General Conference (Morrow, GA).

United Seventh-Day Brethren - The United Seventh-Day Brethren is a small Sabbatarian Adventist body. In 1947, several individuals and two independent congregations within the Church of God Adventist movement formed the United Seventh-Day Brethren, seeking to increase fellowship and to combine their efforts in evangelism, publications, and other ministries.

United Church of God - Following massive doctrinal changes in the Worldwide Church of God, numerous groups split off to retain a more traditional system. The United Church of God founded in 1995 is the largest such offshoot.

True and Free Adventists, a Russian group with at least two denominations and numerous individual churches with a charismatic or Pentecostal-type bent have been influenced by or were offshoots from Seventh-day Adventists

Jehovah's Witnesses are generally not regarded as part of the Millerite Adventist movement, although at least one source does. The founder Charles Taze Russell attended an Adventist church 1870–4 and "was deeply influenced by Adventist thought". Jehovah's Witnesses, previously known as International Bible Students before 1931, founded circa 1870, as of December 2008 there were 7 million Witnesses in 235 different lands attending 105,000 congregations.

Here is a quick read and interesting documentation related to the commonality of the SDA and the JW movements:

http://www.spirituallysmart.com/SDA%20Church.html



Edited by Truth Files (07/27/11 08:25 PM)
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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463904 - 07/28/11 10:39 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
No replacement theology here. Israel has not been replaced. It's vinedressers--the husbandmen (Jewish Nation) has. According to Isaiah 5 and 65, it would be the "strangers" that would come in, plow the fields, and "stand to feed the flock".

The Church are the new "Husbandmen" for the "House of Israel". The "kingdom" (Israel) was "given" (not replaced) to a new nation. :)

The "keys" to the "house" (Israel) have been given to new housekeepers, new caretakers. The Lord has removed the Jewish Nation's privilege of taking care of those keys. God's true Church now possesses the right to the keys of the house. They have been given the Divine Credentials to the Vineyard, the "house of Israel".

The Israel of God and the False Charge of "Replacement Theology"

Sometimes, people just need a little "repetition". bwink


Edited by Lysimachus (07/28/11 10:45 AM)
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463907 - 07/28/11 11:37 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
SDA, Mormon, JW, WWCG

Each of these particular examples of movements created their own replacement theologies with a different twist

Major difference: EGW was set up and used as an iconic prophet by her associates ..... the others were created and led by the originators of the movements

.... this foundational concept of replacement theology [relegating national Israel to the past with no further and separate role in future unfilled prophecy, and claiming the position for the movement] has been used by those who create religions of propriety and self serving ambition

The list is long and it was instituted by the early originators of the RCC using the historical/allegorical method of interpreting the prophetic scriptures .... this methodology allows for the manipulation of the same in order to then construct extra-biblical doctrines of men

There are many of these sub movements of professing christianity today who do the very same thing for the same objectives and yet they all stand against one another and claim exclusivity


Edited by Truth Files (07/28/11 11:38 AM)
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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463909 - 07/28/11 11:51 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
(quoting): ...Jehovah's Witnesses are generally not regarded as part of the Millerite Adventist movement, although at least one source does. The founder Charles Taze Russell attended an Adventist church 1870&#150;4 and "was deeply influenced by Adventist thought". Jehovah's Witnesses, previously known as International Bible Students before 1931, founded circa 1870, as of December 2008 there were 7 million Witnesses in 235 different lands attending 105,000 congregations.


This Adventist church Russell attended was not Seventh-day Adventist.

Russell was influenced by George Storrs' writings on the non-immortality of the soul. Storrs' writings also influenced many of the people who later formed the Seventh-day Adventist Church. James White read Storrs' writings, but White already believed in the non-immortality of the soul before reading Storrs.

So there's no direct connection between the Jehovah's Witnesses and Seventh-day Adventists.

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#463910 - 07/28/11 11:57 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
..EGW was set up and used as an iconic prophet by her associates


This is not true. Ellen White was not set up by other people. This isn't how Ellen G. White's prophetic ministry began.

Have you read her books, Early Writings or Life Sketches?

How her ministry began is well documented in Arthur White's multivolumn biography and in many other books.

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#463911 - 07/28/11 11:58 AM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes

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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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#463913 - 07/28/11 12:10 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes



Many people make the same claim about the entire Christian faith. They see no real difference between the Catholic, Orthodox and the protestant churches. They see them all as the same pie. But are they right?

You talk as if none of those people had any interest in the truth but were only concerned with their personal ambitions. This is no more true of the early Adventists than of Luther, Wesley or Calvin.

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#463914 - 07/28/11 12:19 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
John317 Offline



Registered: 11/13/05
Posts: 33718
Loc: near Loma Linda,CA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
....
>The evidence is in .... no question about this....


But here's what you originally claimed, and it is not supported by the evidence you produced:

Quote:

And do you know that his [Armstrong's] WWCG is a spin off of EGW's SDA?


The WWCG was not a spin off of Ellen G. White or of the SDA church.

Here is what your own evidence found:

Quote:
Church of God (Seventh Day) - The Church of God (Seventh-Day) founded 1863 with an estimated 11,000 members in 185 churches in 1999 in America. They separated in 1858 from those Adventists associated with Ellen White who later organized as Seventh-day Adventists in 1863.

Armstrong's Worldwide Church of God splintered from this. The Church of God (7th Day) split off in 1933 and had an estimated 63,000 members worldwide in 2004.


According to this, the WWCG was a splinter from a splinter which splintered off even before the SDA church came into existence. Is this your idea of a spin off of "EGW's SDA"?




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#463916 - 07/28/11 12:24 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Truth Files]
Lysimachus Offline


Registered: 09/08/10
Posts: 1994
Loc: Wisconsin, USA
Originally Posted By: Truth Files
All of them taking the same pie and piecing it up for their own ambitious objectives .... same stuff, but with different strokes



lol, you are hilarious. I could say that you are munching off the same "Jesuit pie". That your entire theology is really the same "Jesuit Inspired Psuedepigraphal Mythology". That your entire dispensational theology is nothing more than the cradle to help hone in the New World Order, and fuel Zionism, and create unnecessary friction between Islam and Israel.

It's all part of the same "Illuminati--Freemasonry--New World Order pie".
_________________________
~Lysimachus (Marcos S.)

Author of Vindicating the Historicist Hermeneutic.

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#463918 - 07/28/11 12:35 PM Re: The Truth About Dispensational Futurism! [Re: Lysimachus]
Truth Files Offline
I have already made 100 posts

Registered: 07/11/11
Posts: 342
Loc: USA
"You talk as if none of those people had any interest in the truth but were only concerned with their personal ambitions. This is no more true of the early Adventists than of Luther, Wesley or Calvin"


I would agree with you, and the ones you list as examples are suspect .... and the ambitions held can be exposed by the substance of the dogmas they create which contain the seeds of potentially undermining one's salvation .... these things are often not readly detected by those who are attracted

And here is what all of them, even though different, do; and for one to look for with regarding their use of Bible prophecy to gain their positions:

1.Extract national Israel's involvement and central future roll in the Lord's planing

2.Refute the Lord's intent to immortalize His church of both those asleep and living just before He brings His Hour of trial and judgment upon the earth

3.Apply the convinence of selective allegory when interpreting the prophetic scriptures

These significant things must be done in order to make their proprietary religions work .... and all of them do it





Edited by Truth Files (07/28/11 12:36 PM)
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Stephen - Author - Truth Files

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